A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[gsquared]

First I want to give a big shoutout to @romaz, @austinpop, @lmitche and many other smart people who have contributed to this awesome thread. I have been here reading & taking notes since the very beginning and have implemented several of the recommendations along the way.

 

I have an issue that I hope some of you in the CA community might be able to help me narrow down and solve. I recently moved and just re-setup my system, but for some inexplicable reason, there is much less bass that I used to get before. I am using Spendor LS3/5As (same as before) and even though they only go down to about 90Hz, they still had impressive bass energy that I could feel in my previous home office. That is now gone.

 

I'm trying to narrow down what I should tackle first, so I don't have to completely reconfigure my system to match my old setup. I have a relatively small room to work with, so it makes changing things a PITA.

 

I run a separate Roon server and renderer, same DAC and speakers, but I've changed some things in the new house (yes I suffer from audio neurosis).

 

Here's what's changed in the new system:

1. I'm now using a Cisco WS-C2960-8TC-L switch and copper ethernet cable for the network, instead of a MikroTik Fiber switch, fiber cable and FMCs. I haven't done anything to the Cisco in terms of configuration. I just plugged it in and started using it.
2. I do NOT have a bridged network setup now, whereas previously I did. (Thanks again @romaz for the OP about the positive SQ impact this brings.)
3. Roon server now runs on an Intel NUC instead of a sonicTransporter (original model).
4. I am using Roon server + endpoint (Roon only), whereas previously I ran Roon + HQPlayer upsampled to DSD256. (Previously HQPlayer ran on my Mac Mini with Uptone Audio MMK DC conversion kit)

Everything else (for the most part) is the same as before.

 

For ethernet cables, I'm using Vandesail CAT8 cables because they were cheap and I need a few long runs to go from my Orbi satellite in my office to the Cisco switch.

 

My gut tells me it *might* be the copper vs fiber that is causing the loss of bass. I don't think going from HQPlayer to Roon could cause such a decrease in bass, but it might be. For now, I'm just going to start switching out the easy stuff to see if I can hear a change.

 

Anyone have any suggestions on what you think might be the primary culprit for the loss of bass - based on your experience?

[bobfa]

Room First,....!  Sorry!

 

You changed too much to give a path.  But I do not understand why you made some of the changes.  Why the shift in the server?  Why not bridged? What is your Roon endpoint?

 

 

[lmitche]

41 minutes ago, gsquared said:

First I want to give a big shoutout to @romaz, @austinpop, @lmitche and many other smart people who have contributed to this awesome thread. I have been here reading & taking notes since the very beginning and have implemented several of the recommendations along the way.

 

I have an issue that I hope some of you in the CA community might be able to help me narrow down and solve. I recently moved and just re-setup my system, but for some inexplicable reason, there is much less bass that I used to get before. I am using Spendor LS3/5As (same as before) and even though they only go down to about 90Hz, they still had impressive bass energy that I could feel in my previous home office. That is now gone.

 

I'm trying to narrow down what I should tackle first, so I don't have to completely reconfigure my system to match my old setup. I have a relatively small room to work with, so it makes changing things a PITA.

 

I run a separate Roon server and renderer, same DAC and speakers, but I've changed some things in the new house (yes I suffer from audio neurosis).

 

Here's what's changed in the new system:

1. I'm now using a Cisco WS-C2960-8TC-L switch and copper ethernet cable for the network, instead of a MikroTik Fiber switch, fiber cable and FMCs. I haven't done anything to the Cisco in terms of configuration. I just plugged it in and started using it.
2. I do NOT have a bridged network setup now, whereas previously I did. (Thanks again @romaz for the OP about the positive SQ impact this brings.)
3. Roon server now runs on an Intel NUC instead of a sonicTransporter (original model).
4. I am using Roon server + endpoint (Roon only), whereas previously I ran Roon + HQPlayer upsampled to DSD256. (Previously HQPlayer ran on my Mac Mini with Uptone Audio MMK DC conversion kit)

Everything else (for the most part) is the same as before.

 

For ethernet cables, I'm using Vandesail CAT8 cables because they were cheap and I need a few long runs to go from my Orbi satellite in my office to the Cisco switch.

 

My gut tells me it *might* be the copper vs fiber that is causing the loss of bass. I don't think going from HQPlayer to Roon could cause such a decrease in bass, but it might be. For now, I'm just going to start switching out the easy stuff to see if I can hear a change.

 

Anyone have any suggestions on what you think might be the primary culprit for the loss of bass - based on your experience?

I would start by isolating your network from the playback chain. Can you get the FMCs between the cable modem and server? Otherwise use a WIFI extender like the Linksys RE900 to make an isolated network as I do here. B&H had them priced at  $99 the other day. Just use the two 5ghz radios.

[gsquared]

28 minutes ago, bobfa said:

Room First,....!  Sorry!

 

You changed too much to give a path.  But I do not understand why you made some of the changes.  Why the shift in the server?  Why not bridged? What is your Roon endpoint?

 

 

 

The room is almost the same size as the old one and the carpet is the same. Ceiling height is the same. 

 

I got rid of the fiber network because I didn't like the idea of having all of the FMCs that could be contributing noise. The shift in the server was because the sonictransporter was a little slow, maybe due to my large library? IDK. I haven't bridged it yet because I'm still tuning the server. It runs diskless in RAM and I'm still in the process of optimizing things, but eventually I will run it bridged. The Roon endpoint is the Sonore ultraRendu (for now).

[bobfa]

So let us say the room is ok.

Before you spend any money try a few of these ideas.

Are the speaker cables phased right?  (sorry, but back to basics.  I have screwed that one up more than once)

Finish the bridging and the server optimization. Get that stable.  (and whatever else that is in-flux).  

Look at the Roon setup to make sure it does not have something set wrong about your DAC/ Audio system.  DSP options, etc.  

I doubt it is the ultraRendu.  I assume you have a good power supply on it. 

I do not know about AC power in the system.  A dedicated circuit, etc.. made a big difference to my system.  At least have the circuit breaker checked.  And check the outlets.  

 

@lmitche mentioned network isolation.  It might help but get the rest stable before you add stuff.

 

 

 

[gsquared]

54 minutes ago, lmitche said:

I would start by isolating your network from the playback chain. Can you get the FMCs between the cable modem and server? Otherwise use a WIFI extender like the Linksys RE900 to make an isolated network as I do here. B&H had them priced at  $99 the other day. Just use the two 5ghz radios.

 

My Orbi is a satellite, which I believe is the same as a WIFI extender. I was able to bypass the Cisco and go directly from the Orbi to my system. I was using the Cisco because I didn't think my ethernet cables would reach, but they do. It sounds GREAT, but still a little light on the bass. Very strange!

 

 

[gsquared]

36 minutes ago, bobfa said:

So let us say the room is ok.

Before you spend any money try a few of these ideas.

Are the speaker cables phased right?  (sorry, but back to basics.  I have screwed that one up more than once)

Finish the bridging and the server optimization. Get that stable.  (and whatever else that is in-flux).  

Look at the Roon setup to make sure it does not have something set wrong about your DAC/ Audio system.  DSP options, etc.  

I doubt it is the ultraRendu.  I assume you have a good power supply on it. 

I do not know about AC power in the system.  A dedicated circuit, etc.. made a big difference to my system.  At least have the circuit breaker checked.  And check the outlets.  

 

@lmitche mentioned network isolation.  It might help but get the rest stable before you add stuff.

 

 

 

 

The speaker cables were the first thing I checked  I've made that mistake too.

 

Yes I do need to get the server optimization finished and bridged. Yes I've gone through every Roon setting I could find that could possibly be causing this. I disabled all of the DSP settings. For the ultraRendu I am using the Uptone Audio LPS 1.0. For the Intel NUC, I'm using the new HDPlex 200W LPSU. I do not have a dedicated circuit. It could very well be the power coming into the house. I didn't think of that.

 

Thank you for the suggestions.

 

[lmitche]

1 minute ago, gsquared said:

 

My Orbi is a satellite, which I believe is the same as a WIFI extender. I was able to bypass the Cisco and go directly from the Orbi to my system. I was using the Cisco because I didn't think my ethernet cables would reach, but they do. It sounds GREAT, but still a little light on the bass. Very strange!

 

 

You are right, the orbi is kinda like the re9009 and should deliver the same isolation benefits. Just for grins, you may want to add the Cisco between your server and streamer, or use wifi to the orbi on the streamer. Also bridge the orbi through the server to the streamer if the latter is wired.

[lmitche]

5 minutes ago, gsquared said:

 

The speaker cables were the first thing I checked  I've made that mistake too.

 

Yes I do need to get the server optimization finished and bridged. Yes I've gone through every Roon setting I could find that could possibly be causing this. I disabled all of the DSP settings. For the ultraRendu I am using the Uptone Audio LPS 1.0. For the Intel NUC, I'm using the new HDPlex 200W LPSU. I do not have a dedicated circuit. It could very well be the power coming into the house. I didn't think of that.

 

Thank you for the suggestions.

 

Which NUC and which power output on the new 200 watt Hdplex?

 

I have a new I7 NUC running here on the new Hdplex lt3045 at 15 volts output. ?

[gsquared]

Just now, lmitche said:

Which NUC and which power output on the Hdplex?

 

I have a new I7 NUC running here with the 15 volt Hdpekx lt3045 output. ?

 

I have the NUC8i7BEH for the server and 19V output on the HDplex.

[lmitche]

8 minutes ago, gsquared said:

 

I have the NUC8i7BEH for the server and 19V output on the HDplex.

If you can, please let me know how the 19 volt output compares to the lt3045 at 15 volts. Sorry you may need more wattage than possible with the lt3045 output of the Hdplex.

[gsquared]

25 minutes ago, lmitche said:

If you can, please let me know how the 19 volt output compares to the lt3045 at 15 volts. Sorry you may need more wattage than possible with the lt3045 output of the Hdplex.

 

I just tried 15V and it started for a few seconds then shut off. Yes I think needs more juice, especially since I have it running with all cores, turbo and hyperthreading both ON.

 

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll continue to experiment and report back.

[lmitche]

3 minutes ago, gsquared said:

 

I just tried 15V and it started for a few seconds then shut off. Yes I think needs more juice, especially since I have it running with all cores, turbo and hyperthreading both ON.

 

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll continue to experiment and report back.

On a server hyperthreading and all cores are ok, turbo not ok.

[gsquared]

25 minutes ago, lmitche said:

On a server hyperthreading and all cores are ok, turbo not ok.

 

Okay, thanks for the tip! I will inquire about this on the other thread

 

[rickca]

1 hour ago, gsquared said:

Yes I think needs more juice, especially since I have it running with all cores, turbo and hyperthreading both ON.

Turbo on that NUC is a definite no no if you want to use 15V/2A of the new HDPLEX 200W LPS.  The i7-8559U is 28W TDP and that is assuming no turbo.  If disabling turbo doesn't do the trick, you could run it at low power (configurable TDP down is 20W).  I'm also interested in how it sounds with the 19V fixed rail.  It can deliver up to 10A so obviously it's plenty of juice.

[Bricki]

3 hours ago, gsquared said:

 

Okay, thanks for the tip! I will inquire about this on the other thread

 

I found that hyperthreading and turbo disabled sounded better on my audiolinux roon server 

[elpampeano]

8 hours ago, gsquared said:

First I want to give a big shoutout to @romaz, @austinpop, @lmitche and many other smart people who have contributed to this awesome thread. I have been here reading & taking notes since the very beginning and have implemented several of the recommendations along the way.

 

I have an issue that I hope some of you in the CA community might be able to help me narrow down and solve. I recently moved and just re-setup my system, but for some inexplicable reason, there is much less bass that I used to get before. I am using Spendor LS3/5As (same as before) and even though they only go down to about 90Hz, they still had impressive bass energy that I could feel in my previous home office. That is now gone.

 

I'm trying to narrow down what I should tackle first, so I don't have to completely reconfigure my system to match my old setup. I have a relatively small room to work with, so it makes changing things a PITA.

 

I run a separate Roon server and renderer, same DAC and speakers, but I've changed some things in the new house (yes I suffer from audio neurosis).

 

Here's what's changed in the new system:

1. I'm now using a Cisco WS-C2960-8TC-L switch and copper ethernet cable for the network, instead of a MikroTik Fiber switch, fiber cable and FMCs. I haven't done anything to the Cisco in terms of configuration. I just plugged it in and started using it.
2. I do NOT have a bridged network setup now, whereas previously I did. (Thanks again @romaz for the OP about the positive SQ impact this brings.)
3. Roon server now runs on an Intel NUC instead of a sonicTransporter (original model).
4. I am using Roon server + endpoint (Roon only), whereas previously I ran Roon + HQPlayer upsampled to DSD256. (Previously HQPlayer ran on my Mac Mini with Uptone Audio MMK DC conversion kit)

Everything else (for the most part) is the same as before.

 

For ethernet cables, I'm using Vandesail CAT8 cables because they were cheap and I need a few long runs to go from my Orbi satellite in my office to the Cisco switch.

 

My gut tells me it *might* be the copper vs fiber that is causing the loss of bass. I don't think going from HQPlayer to Roon could cause such a decrease in bass, but it might be. For now, I'm just going to start switching out the easy stuff to see if I can hear a change.

 

Anyone have any suggestions on what you think might be the primary culprit for the loss of bass - based on your experience?

I have the same situation with my Apogees Centaur Minor/Proceed BPA2 (they're wonderful speakers but bass-shy) when i go to the NIC endpoint : the case was more control and not less bass. The Definition on bass notes is now better than Ever, but without the bummy bass. Look on that...takes some time to adapt.

Cheers and enjoy !!

 

[elpampeano]

I question on original post subject : i Will buy a dual NIC m-pcie to bridge the server (a Celeron mini ITX with 1 LAN). So, i see an RL-Link with Intel i350am2 chipset but the tech sheet says "Now with the BRIDGELESS Technologies of the i350 controller..." What they says ? Can i build a bridge connection with this NIC card ? -i only have a free mini pci-e slot-

Thanks in advance

[flkin]

There's a difference between bass-shy and thinner sound which can sometimes come across as bass-shy. Might be worth considering this?

 

A few things I have found in the past that causes thinner sound are insufficient power, silver wires and HQPlayer.

[luisma]

11 hours ago, gsquared said:

. I don't think going from HQPlayer to Roon could cause such a decrease in bass, but it might be. For

There is excellent advise from the other members here but can you try HQP again? I run a similar system to yours and found that HQP vs Roon makes a difference. Also see if really the bass is lacking, maybe you are familiar with the effect but many times changing a single component even a cable will give you a different presentation of instruments giving you the impression of lacking something. 

On my system from what I remember the biggest difference in bass happened when I replaced the smps by an LPS1. 1. 

I just literally moved myself to a different house and haven't started my system yet but I suspect problems due to congested venomous mains 

Will see 

 

[Dutch]

I just read the, discussed before, Farad Power Supplies by Mattijs de Vries (spin off of Pink Faun) are now available.

 

These are not ‘bank switching’ like Uptone’s LPS-1(.2). First one is a 3A continuous output (fixed voltage, factory set) model and they’re testing a 12A version.

 

http://www.faradpowersupplies.com/

[RickyV]

1 hour ago, Dutch said:

I just read the, discussed before, Farad Power Supplies by Mattijs de Vries (spin off of Pink Faun) are now available.

 

These are not ‘bank switching’ like Uptone’s LPS-1(.2). First one is a 3A continuous output (fixed voltage, factory set) model and they’re testing a 12A version.

 

http://www.faradpowersupplies.com/

Thanks very interesting hopefully they're reasonably priced 

[Dutch]

1 minute ago, RickyV said:

Thanks very interesting hopefully they're reasonably priced 

The price of the 3A one is mentioned on their website: 479 euro ex VAT. No mentions of shipping costs.

[rickca]

2 hours ago, Dutch said:

Farad Power Supplies by Mattijs de Vries (spin off of Pink Faun) are now available.

Looks like another great option if you want a fixed voltage LPS.

[austinpop]

3 hours ago, Dutch said:

I just read the, discussed before, Farad Power Supplies by Mattijs de Vries (spin off of Pink Faun) are now available.

 

These are not ‘bank switching’ like Uptone’s LPS-1(.2). First one is a 3A continuous output (fixed voltage, factory set) model and they’re testing a 12A version.

 

http://www.faradpowersupplies.com/

 

Thanks, this is interesting.

 

One concern with Super capacitor supplies is that in the quest to deliver more current capacity, the higher number of capacitors can raise the output impedance, which has a very noticeable correlation with SQ. I notice in the writeup, they talk about the impedance of the output connector and the cable being factors, but I don't see (or did I just miss?) the output impedance of the supply itself?

 

If I recall right, the LPS-1.2 measures under 3mΩ up to 100kHz, but @Superdad can clarify, I'm sure.

 

If someone is pursuing buying one of these, please ask about the output impedance.