A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[rickca]

11 minutes ago, austinpop said:

Did you get this working?

I haven't had a chance to try it yet.  We have out of town guests for the holidays.

 

I just found out Trump is not coming to Mar a Lago for New Year's so things will thankfully not be chaotic around here.  

[rickca]

8 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

I don't recall what the temps on the Akasa Newton JC case were. Maybe someone who has the PJYH in the Newton JC can post their observations?

 

I just checked the DS-1, which has been on for several days now. According to "sensors," CPU temps are hovering at 46ºC. Ambient room temp based on my thermostat is 20ºC.

I have a PJYH still in the original NUC case.  My temps with ramroot/extreme are 43 degrees C.

[tims]

5 hours ago, kelvinwsy said:

I have done repeated comparisons between my NUC 8650u fanless minipc using Jussi 's Ramroot NAA vs SOTM Ultra NEO

Main Pc is 6700k heavily filtered -- DDR4 ram filter, Dual PCie Mobo filters, fan filters, ssd filters etc

Sara Bareilles HDTrack 96k Live at hires was main test file .. Eagles Hotel California XRCD File, John Denver An Evening with(re-mastered)

The NUC sounds Spacious and wonderful 

SQ is good 

BUT If your system is quiet .. low electrical noise 

When u listen to a good Live Recording u can hear that the image focus on the NUC is not up to par VS SOTM SM200 ultra Neo

The depth and width of the stereo image is superior on the NEO

The track with piano on the Sara Bareilles Brave Enough Live at the Variety Playhouse .. on the NUC you hear the piano sound spread slightly left to right of center. On the Neo the piano is slightly left of center and you can make out the sound mix for piano is right angled to the stereo left right stage .. You can just out Sara stepping in the piano pedals. Her voice is noticeable focused and distinct from the piano and has a greater height in the stereo sound stage.

 

On John Denver An Evening with.. The remastered CD has great SQ especially Hall acoustics and much better instruments and vocal clarity  (John and his band members backing vocals) AND the band's instruments and the orchestra( i hv the original vinyl LP)

On the 4th Track Summer .. The Universal Amphitheater in LA gives a clear resonant delayed echo to JD's voice

On the NUC u hear it as a slightly blurred 2nd voice of JD

on the Neo his lyrics are clearly heard on the hall echo

Other than the above , the SOTM Is a lot quieter than the NUC

AUDIENCE and hall sounds have clear positioning info into the distance away from the concert stage 

And these sounds have superior sound specificity and solidity

My Conclusion? YMMV of course

So i enjoy both devices 

Both tested with 12v LPSU from Ebay

LPS1.1 with Ultracap and LT3045 before the isoregen

iFi idsd micro BL output RCA to 2 Audionote Quest Silver 300b monoblocs driving Senn HD800 thru a hifiman resistor box

8650u fanless minipc - see image attached

16gb ram 64gb SSD but bypassed using Jussi's Linux bootable NAA ramroot file

Thanks for your review.  On your SMS-200Ultra NEO have you upgraded to the latest firmware (v0.4.5)?

[greenleo]

4 hours ago, kelvinwsy said:

Guess I did not say that i was comparing an Intel NUC although the nomenclature is Intel( it was a lazy naming task on my part)

A lot of the inspiration of this forum topic is trying to match listening inspirations of the 7th /. 8th Gen Intel NUC in fanless minipc .. what is the secret sauce that makes the Intel NUC SQ so good

I tend to agree that the main point is OS being light and Ramroot loaded seems critcal ... 

I find it hard to believe Intel 7th Gen mobos used in their kit sets and barebone units brong mass produced is the secret

And this is from Intel who did not manage the transition from 14nm to 10nm production process....

My take is that

8th Gen seems to sound better than 7th Gen Celeron lower powered NUCs

My experience bears this out as I hv another Cherry Trail quad core NAA fanless minipc

The new 8650u sounds so much more authorative and better SQ overall

Happy listening to everyone

 

 

I concur with Dutch that an apple to apple comparison would be more meaningful.  It would be great if you can compare your system with the 7CJYH or the i7DNBE.  The consensus of the secret of the SQ in the last few months were the mobo, the OS and the RAMBoot, among other things like, power, ...etc.

 

It's verry hard to interpolate/extrapolate from your finding which is very valuable on its own.

[kelvinwsy]

Oh waiting for the v0.4.5 to be non beta stage

Will do it on my win pc which has a card reader/writer

Anyone kniws which micro sd card sounds the best?

The latest high speed Sandisk micro sd -- extreme pro uhs ii is premium pricing still

 

[kelvinwsy]

Oh waiting for the v0.4.5 to be non beta stage

Will do it on my win pc which has a card reader/writer

Anyone kniws which micro sd card sounds the best?

The latest high speed Sandisk micro sd -- extreme pro uhs ii is premium pricing still

 ? if the stock market behaves going fwd 

i can see a Akasa cased 8th gen intel NUC on my test bench in a month ?? for MANO on MANO Three way contest?

Will do it as the 8650u is a second NAA in my living room 

So a second NAA in my dining room .. think it is WAF Proof enough

[lmitche]

4 hours ago, rickca said:

I haven't had a chance to try it yet.  We have out of town guests for the holidays.

 

I just found out Trump is not coming to Mar a Lago for New Year's so things will thankfully not be chaotic around here.  

You may have to move to a better neighborhood.

[lmitche]

1 minute ago, lmitche said:

You may have to move to a better neighborhood.

I hear Miami Beach has better weather this time of year.

[auricgoldfinger]

9 minutes ago, kelvinwsy said:

Anyone kniws which micro sd card sounds the best?

 

Here's one possibility for you:  https://darko.audio/2015/02/sony-to-introduce-us160-low-noise-sr-64hxa-microsd-card/

 

I'm not a microSD card expert and have no experience with this one.

[Chopin75]

Since NUC is intel but has anyone tried using Ryzen processor like 1700x or 2700x ? Pinkfaun recommends it as it works better with linux. It has no graphic is mainly for headless OS. I am planningto get a HDplex PC built using Ryzen chip and later run audiolinux on it.

[Dev]

22 hours ago, Dutch said:

Sonore goes optical, hmmm. Not much info yet, check their subforum here on CA.

 

I have asked for this product (optical in, usb out) almost 2 years back and the reply was "i'm not interested in that solution". Anyway, this is the not first off product - the Mivera Superstream did it 3 yrs ago ?

[Dev]

23 hours ago, rickca said:

Can LMS/Squeezelite work in a server/streamer two box configuration like Roon server/endpoint?

 

Currently, I'm running AL/NUC as a standalone box running LMS/Squeezelite streaming Qobuz over wireless.  I have my own rips on a Windows 10 machine.  Of course I can mount a Windows 10 share on the NUC to play music from my library.  But would it sound better to have the NUC run only the player/endpoint function and run the server function (I guess that's LMS) on Windows 10?  

 

Is this architecture supported by the LMS/Squeezelite ecosystem?  If so, how do I implement it ... do I install LMS on Windows 10?

 

I guess I understand how UPnP/DLNA server/renderer works with things like MinimServer on Windows 10, but I'm not sure if LMS/Squeezelite works in a similar manner.  Please help me straighten out my misconceptions.

 

Yes, server/endpoint is well supported with LMS/Squeezelite. That is how I am using currently. You just need to stop the LMS running locally in the endpoint and start an instance on whatever server you want. The squeezelite instance will pop right into the LMS player selection.

[rickca]

55 minutes ago, Chopin75 said:

Since NUC is intel but has anyone tried using Ryzen processor like 1700x or 2700x ? Pinkfaun recommends it as it works better with linux. It has no graphic is mainly for headless OS. I am planningto get a HDplex PC built using Ryzen chip and later run audiolinux on it.

Any idea why AMD Ryzen is more suitable for Linux than Intel?

[Lebouwsky]

13 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

I'm assuming you also have dedicated circuit(s)? Could you describe what you mean by an "earth pin?" I have heard people do things from simple (copper rod hammered into the ground) to trucking in special soil, keeping soil moist with just the right salinity, etc.

 

Do all your audio circuits connect to this ground?

An earth pin is a very long metal rod that is mechanicly drilled in the soil under a slight angel. Specifications in my country are determined by law. The resistance should be 166 ohm or les in order to float away electricity when lightning strikes. The length (between 6 and 30 meter) is determined by the type of ground and hight of ground water level. Segments are screwed together.

 

The Supra ply 3.4s speaker cable has a sheeld around the plus and minus that is connected to the ground of my amplifier  in order to float the rubbish away. This also goes for the Supra Lorad 2.5 mains cable. It’s sheeld is connected to the ground wire at the input side of the cable. This might have extra benefits in my situation.

[mozes]

I would like to share a quick update on what I believe is the best setup I have achieved in my system in terms of SQ so far. It is also an opportunity to have a different flavour on this thread other than the recently popular NUC/AL which I have abandoned as I am not so patient. My system is as follows:

 

1-Nimitra: configured as a server with Jriver. My music is stored internally on a 1TB SSD (powered by sPS-500).

 

2-custom built sCLk-EX PC configured as a renderer with Jplayfemto (powered by sPS-500 for motherboard, LPS-1 for the tX-USBultra, LPS-1 for 120GB SSD, and LPS-1.2 for the sCLK-EX board).

 

Both machines run on Win 10 pro and optimized with Fidelizer 8.3 and AO 2.2

 

3-TLS OCXO switch (LPS-1.2). The server and renderer are both plugged to this switch (no bridging).

 

What I have noticed is that the biggest improvement came from using Jplayfemto as a renderer and with a DAC link of 1000Hz. The most obvious gain is realism and spatial presence.

 

I remind you all that I haven't tested AL/NUC so I can't offer insights on any comparative performance takeouts. However, it is the best SQ I achieved so far.

 

Happy New Year!

[sunny_time_99]

On 12/27/2018 at 2:07 AM, RickyV said:

 

Hi sunny time 

very interesting i have one neutron star 2 in my system with the stock power supply. What 3 regulators are you using? Was it a substantial or a more modest improvement?

Also I have two neutrino’s clocks but am not sure if a crystek 575, 957 wouldn’t be better.

 

rick

 

Hi rick,

the improvement is not allways the same. the biggest step was the clock inside of the Ideon 3R followed the change inside the pc. the clock for the 9038pro and the 3 clocks inside of the usb/i2s converter were all noticible and important. but its the end of modification. spend only 1.000 euro for modding the 3 clocks of a cm6631a or xmos? only possible if you are as sick as me. thats the latest thing you can do - first there a a lot of better tweaks for the money - a server/client e.g., a modification of the switch (i modded my dlink with a sellarz audio clock).... and so on. 

a crystek tuning is recommended, if you are unsing "normal" clocks. you can use small carrier pcb´s to connect the 575, 957 clocks with your existing equiptment. the neutron star is a realy good sq- update for cchd957 and 575. maybe not in a scope-contest - but this thread is only for listening experience...

as i mentioned before... wait until you try it, until you tried everything in this thread first - its the most expensivest mod - not the best value for the money. i would allways do this again, pls don´t get me wrong, but i am sick...

 

On 12/27/2018 at 2:21 AM, RickyV said:

 

What do you think the streamer makes on total sq?

 

 

 

Hi,

imho its about 50-60%. I prefer a server/client solution. the sq rises about 10% if two futro S900 are sharing the job. of course its much more money, but worth every (euro)cent ?

in my setup at the moment i can swap the dac without missing that much. mit favorite dac at the moment is an diy 9038pro with 6 seperate power supply, a class a output and 3 Neutron star / and one neutrino star. I am using a heavy modded ideon 3R with an neutron star. but i still can enjoy music when i swap that dac back to a tda-1540 design, that is only playing with 14bit! or a heavy modded implementation of the usb monica . therefore i think the dac is not that importent anymore. bit. in the past i spend the most money on the dac... today, we are working on makeing that thing cheaper, without loosing musicality or resolution.

 

 

On 12/27/2018 at 6:45 AM, Chopin75 said:

Streamer is as important if not more than DAC, and that includes the software player, and the OS as well as the hardware itself. For eg Mac OS sucks compared with Linux. Audirvana beats J river on Mac OS from my experience 

 

the software makes min. 50% of the streamer, nuc and of course the nas, of you are still using one. second place behind software is the power supply. not only focus on ripple rejection or low output impedance. there are a lot more, that a good sounding psu must be able to do.

behind the power supply, the clock is the next point - but were now in the last 10% -sq-range...

 

pls, don´t take this personel (i just picked your posting), but imho if someone is still using any kind of a windows based machine, a mac os, j-river, hq-player etc.... can´t even imagine what is possible at the moment. switching the software costs nearly nothing, but after that maybe the coverflow is not that nice... but the sq is on a different level.

 

On 12/27/2018 at 8:07 PM, Superdad said:

 

Actually, look at the -100 dBc/Hz phase noise @10Hz offset spec for the $50 20Mhz Connor-Winfield OH4 and you will see that better clocks (for audio applications) cost less, not more. 

Even the $9.60 Crystek CCHD-575 has lower phase noise/jitter than those C-W clocks. And that's from the published very conservative Crystek plots--actual production 575s run -108 to -112 at 10Hz (for a 25MHz part).

 

the cchd-575 is a realy nice sounding clock, i agree. but the clock itself is not only the one who is making the difference. the implementation is also important. look at the neutron star. lars clausen is using "normal" clocks - but the sq is outstandung. i am realy happy that the 24mhz version of the cchd-575 is (sometimes) available on mouser. this, and a good psu is a easy update for a lot of stuff.

 

regards

 

sunny

[Advieira]

Would not it be time to propose a new C.A.P.S based on everything we learned here?

[seeteeyou]

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/ca/ca-academy/computer-audiophile-pocket-server-c-a-p-s-v4-introduction/

Quote

Researching and purchasing all the parts for CAPS servers takes time and money. In the past I spent over $10,000 just trying different motherboards, memory, SSDs, cases, etc…

 

We could pay Intel that kinda money to make a prototype of something VERY special, most likely that's a better bet than Asus or Supermicro etc.

 

I dunno, attacking the latency side while bypassing the CPU as much as possible should be a good place to start

 

PCIe Peer-2-Peer
https://github.com/sbates130272/donard

https://github.com/sbates130272/linux-donard

https://github.com/sbates130272/linux-p2pmem

https://www.abaco.com/download/pci-express-peer-peer-interconnect

 

GPUDirect RDMA

https://github.com/NVIDIA/gdrcopy

https://developer.nvidia.com/gpudirect

https://github.com/Mellanox/nv_peer_memory

 

A quality PSU with top-notch performance is still relatively hard to come by, we still dunno if Dr. Sean Jacobs' flagship or TLS Reference 1 were as good as SR7 DR or otherwise.

 

Is it realistic to expect plenty of us who are happy to share the costs of R&D in terms of making the "best" motherboard for AudioLinux? We'll have to find out if Neutron Star 2 were even better than stuff like Connor-Winfield etc.

[auricgoldfinger]

30 minutes ago, seeteeyou said:

Dr. Sean Jacobs' flagship or TLS Reference 1 were as good as SR7 DR or otherwise.

 

@limniscate and I had a chance to compare the TLS Reference 1 to an SR7 this past week.  Both are double-regulated supplies.  I'll be posting more details soon in the Reference 1 thread, but for now, I can reveal that the SR7 came out on top.

 

Quite some time ago, a little bird told me that the SR7 is also better than a Dr. Sean Jacobs flagship.  I can't name sources, so please don't ask.

[Chopin75]

22 hours ago, rickca said:

Any idea why AMD Ryzen is more suitable for Linux than Intel?

Not sure, AMD Ryzen has more cores like 8 cores in general. Pinkfaun stated the Intel won't work well with I2S PCle cards. It may be more task focused as it has no graphics at all so perfect for headless audio

[Advieira]

I dont have a Nuc AL to compare, but the new sms200ultra 0.4.5 update is really impressive compared to 0.4.2. I wonder if a Nuc AL could beat it.

Sotm has back to the game. ?

[Advieira]

7 hours ago, auricgoldfinger said:

 

@limniscate and I had a chance to compare the TLS Reference 1 to an SR7 this past week.  Both are double-regulated supplies.  I'll be posting more details soon in the Reference 1 thread, but for now, I can reveal that the SR7 came out on top.

 

Quite some time ago, a little bird told me that the SR7 is also better than a Dr. Sean Jacobs flagship.  I can't name sources, so please don't ask.

 

Well, SR7 is now a legend.

[Advieira]

7 hours ago, seeteeyou said:

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/ca/ca-academy/computer-audiophile-pocket-server-c-a-p-s-v4-introduction/

 

We could pay Intel that kinda money to make a prototype of something VERY special, most likely that's a better bet than Asus or Supermicro etc.

 

I dunno, attacking the latency side while bypassing the CPU as much as possible should be a good place to start

 

PCIe Peer-2-Peer
https://github.com/sbates130272/donard

https://github.com/sbates130272/linux-donard

https://github.com/sbates130272/linux-p2pmem

https://www.abaco.com/download/pci-express-peer-peer-interconnect

 

GPUDirect RDMA

https://github.com/NVIDIA/gdrcopy

https://developer.nvidia.com/gpudirect

https://github.com/Mellanox/nv_peer_memory

 

A quality PSU with top-notch performance is still relatively hard to come by, we still dunno if Dr. Sean Jacobs' flagship or TLS Reference 1 were as good as SR7 DR or otherwise.

 

Is it realistic to expect plenty of us who are happy to share the costs of R&D in terms of making the "best" motherboard for AudioLinux? We'll have to find out if Neutron Star 2 were even better than stuff like Connor-Winfield etc.

 

Kickstarter is right there...

[bobfa]

I love EARLY SUCCESS so I thought I would share:

 

I am waiting for the new generation NUC board and fanless case to arrive to build and compare to my UltraRendu.  I have NUC7i7BNH that I have run as a Roon ROCK server in the past.  It is now running Windows but not in daily use.  So I "borrowed" the external monitor one of the laptops,... (yes I told my wife)

 

The Process:

 

1. I fully updated machine; both Windows and BIOS to get the machine stable.  

2. Downloaded my headless license of AL.

3. Used Etcher to burn the image to a 64Gb USB stick

4. Booted machine and it did not work; it booted to Windows???

5. Enabled UFEI in the BIOS... Silly me

6. Booted to AL and it came up to the AL menu nicely.  (4K 23in display is OVERKILL)

7. Used the  menu in v8 of AL to turn on Roon bridge

8. Enabled the analog output of the machine in Roon

9.  Plugged in my HD-6xx headphones and played music!

 

A few notes:

• I am running the headless OS, but I have a display and keyboard on it for now. They work fine.  
• When running Windows, the fan runs a lot more and the NUC is "hot".    
• This NUC may end up as part of my testing to be the ROON core for testing.  
• Now the fun and the learning begin.

Sound:

 

I have only listened for about 1 min, but I think that I have never heard a headphone jack on a PC sound that good. It was quiet in the background.  --  I had no expectation bias!  I did not expect it to work at all; yet.  

 

Next steps:

• setup remote headless operation
• test shutdown/reboot/back and forth to windows
• learn how to RAMBOOT
• Do some listening:  Hook up to my Lyr 3 with multi-bit DAC...
• Think about some optimization
• test in the main system A/B to UltraRendu. (low expectations here the NUC is bog standard with fan and factory SMPS)

 

Bob

[taipan254]

1 hour ago, bobfa said:

I love EARLY SUCCESS so I thought I would share:

 

I am waiting for the new generation NUC board and fanless case to arrive to build and compare to my UltraRendu.  I have NUC7i7BNH that I have run as a Roon ROCK server in the past.  It is now running Windows but not in daily use.  So I "borrowed" the external monitor one of the laptops,... (yes I told my wife)

 

The Process:

 

1. I fully updated machine; both Windows and BIOS to get the machine stable.  

2. Downloaded my headless license of AL.

3. Used Etcher to burn the image to a 64Gb USB stick

4. Booted machine and it did not work; it booted to Windows???

5. Enabled UFEI in the BIOS... Silly me

6. Booted to AL and it came up to the AL menu nicely.  (4K 23in display is OVERKILL)

7. Used the  menu in v8 of AL to turn on Roon bridge

8. Enabled the analog output of the machine in Roon

9.  Plugged in my HD-6xx headphones and played music!

 

A few notes:

• I am running the headless OS, but I have a display and keyboard on it for now. They work fine.  
• When running Windows, the fan runs a lot more and the NUC is "hot".    
• This NUC may end up as part of my testing to be the ROON core for testing.  
• Now the fun and the learning begin.

Sound:

 

I have only listened for about 1 min, but I think that I have never heard a headphone jack on a PC sound that good. It was quiet in the background.  --  I had no expectation bias!  I did not expect it to work at all; yet.  

 

Next steps:

• setup remote headless operation
• test shutdown/reboot/back and forth to windows
• learn how to RAMBOOT
• Do some listening:  Hook up to my Lyr 3 with multi-bit DAC...
• Think about some optimization
• test in the main system A/B to UltraRendu. (low expectations here the NUC is bog standard with fan and factory SMPS)

 

Bob

Ramroot is really the value-add step IMO. 

 

It is very easy to set up - I have complete confidence you'll get it up and running in no time, especially since you've gotten this far! 

 

Good luck.