Audiophiles: Dead or Dying?

[sandyk]

23 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

I don't stream music but even, if I did, it would be music that I ripped or downloaded myself so the idea of saving the streamed data seems to make little sense to me.

 

The fact that numerous members here locally stream their music suggests that the benefits greatly outweigh the issues you have raised.

Many people just like the convenience and variety.

Don't forget too, that the files saved on their servers will have been highly compressed before you get to hear them to reduce storage space. If it doesn't matter, why don't they just have one compression size for .flac files (the most compressed setting) and why did they eventually provide a non compressed version if these things don't matter ?

For that matter, why did JRiver eventually cave in to demands and provide a play from System Memory option ?

 Clearly, a lot of customers demanded it because it sounds better to them.

Perhaps North Americans have more disposable income and don't mind paying for the same music every time they play it ?

I seriously doubt that Streaming is anywhere near as popular in many countries such as Au. and N.Z. 

In fact, in Au. recently there has been a marked increase in the sales figures of CD and Vinyl since the Covid 19 lockdown, .which was a surprise.

 

I asked about the saving of the files so that you and others are able to do a comparison with their own locally ripped copies.

[kumakuma]

8 minutes ago, sandyk said:

Many people just like the convenience and variety.

Don't forget too, that the files saved on their servers will have been highly compressed before you get to hear them to reduce storage space. If it doesn't matter, why don't they just have one compression size for .flac files (the most compressed setting) and why did they eventually provide a non compressed version if these things don't matter ?

For that matter, why did JRiver eventually cave in to demands and provide a play from System Memory option ?

 Clearly, a lot of customers demanded it because it sounds better to them.

Perhaps North Americans have more disposable income and don't mind paying for the same music every time they play it ? I doubt that Streaming is anywhere nearly as popular in many countries such as Au. and N.Z. 

 

I asked about the saving of the files so that you and others are able to do a comparison with their own locally ripped copies.

 

Again, you are confusing streaming services with local streaming of your own music.

 

What Rajiv and others are talking about in that massive thread you linked to is the latter (local streaming).

[sandyk]

3 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

Again, you are confusing streaming services with local streaming of your own music.

 

 No I am not. I am talking about directly listening to music "from the Clouds"

 You are still at the mercy of the compression and file size reduction techniques used by Subscription  services, with no guarantee that the content is a bit perfect replica of the original CD etc. track. , which is why I suggested doing a listening and Binary comparison with a locally ripped CD track of the same album . Bear in mind too, that many of the streamed tracks are likely to be remastered versions from after the start of the loudness wars in some genres, perhaps even  MQA corrupted ? 😝

[Rexp]

Back OT... I have no doubt the number of Audiophiles has shrunk dramatically since the 80's. Why, cos folks haven't been convinced that higher priced digital systems are any better than low priced digital systems. Digital is improving so hopefully things will change. 

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

Not sure how the thread morphed into streaming versus local playback.

 

I also think the whole bits is bits bit gets tired pretty quickly. There will always be those that say "factually" it can't possibly make a difference and there will always be those that say you must be deaf, and the circle continues. People make up their own mind.

 

More on topic, I think "audiophiles" changed forever with the dawn of the digital age back in the 80s. Indeed this was the birth of the bits is bits argument and the involvement of "the computer IT guy" as the new expert with subsequent changes that led to the term "audiophile" becoming a dirty word. That's just the way I see it. I am eternally grateful that not all digital experts and engineers were of the same mindset because if they were we would still be listening to 80s digital "perfect sound forever" which in "fact" sounded like garbage.

[AudioDoctor]

Reports of my untimely demise have been greatly exaggerated...

[sandyk]

15 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

I am eternally grateful that not all digital experts and engineers were of the same mindset because if they were we would still be listening to 80s digital "perfect sound forever" which in "fact" sounded like garbage.

 Ditto..

Firedog brought up streaming with very cheap gear.

[sandyk]

2 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

Reports of my untimely demise have been greatly exaggerated...

 IIRC, you prefer LP over most digital offerings too, which suggests perhaps that mainstream Digital must need further improving ?

[AudioDoctor]

1 minute ago, sandyk said:

 IIRC, you prefer LP over most digital offerings too, which suggests perhaps that mainstream Digital must need further improving ?

 

Its not necessarily due to sound quality, I enjoy the process and the memories that my vinyl albums bring back as well.

 

[sandyk]

10 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

 

Its not necessarily due to sound quality, I enjoy the process and the memories that my vinyl albums bring back as well.

 

 

 I felt the same about Laser Disc and would have liked to seen it further improved due to technological advances.

 In fact, due to contactless reading, it could have ousted LPs due to no degradation after several playings , as well as good artwork.

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

And on matters high-end...... price has always been an issue with audiophiles. There was always arguments about "excessive" spending for turntables and other gear. My initial Levinson's cost as much as a family car in the 90s.

 

I genuinely believe and without doubt that technology has evolved such that much more modestly priced gear can produce excellent sound. I also believe that the expensive high-end area has equally evolved to the point of breathtakingly good sound quality if you are willing to chase the price line curve of diminishing returns. It is a steep curve and many factors will determine whether it is worth it for any given individual. Have a read of Chris's review of the Wilson Alexia speakers and tell me if the money he spent was wasted. It may well be  wasted for some but not for me or others. There can be a lot of snobbery in this hobby and there can be a lot of reverse snobbery as well, with its own set of rationalisations.

[sandyk]

3 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

I genuinely believe and without doubt that technology has evolved such that much more modestly priced gear can produce excellent sound. I also believe that the expensive high-end area has equally evolved to the point of breathtakingly good sound quality if you are willing to chase the price line curve of diminishing returns.

 Yet there is "still a vast difference between "excellent and what I heard with your system.

[AudioDoctor]

11 hours ago, GUTB said:

Do we just have to accept most people don't care

 

yes.

[kumakuma]

1 hour ago, sandyk said:

 

 No I am not. I am talking about directly listening to music "from the Clouds"

 You are still at the mercy of the compression and file size reduction techniques used by Subscription  services, with no guarantee that the content is a bit perfect replica of the original CD etc. track. , which is why I suggested doing a listening and Binary comparison with a locally ripped CD track of the same album . Bear in mind too, that many of the streamed tracks are likely to be remastered versions from after the start of the loudness wars in some genres, perhaps even  MQA corrupted ? 😝

 

As I said already, I'm not talking about this kind of streaming and neither are the folks in Rajiv's thread you keep mentioning. 

 

They are typically streaming their own music from a NAS unit attached to their own network although they may also use streaming services as well as another source of music.

 

I would very surprised if any serious audiophiles use streaming services as their primary source for music.

[sandyk]

41 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

As I said already, I'm not talking about this kind of streaming and neither are the folks in Rajiv's thread you keep mentioning. 

 

They are typically streaming their own music from a NAS unit attached to their own network although they may also use streaming services as well as another source of music.

 

I would very surprised if any serious audiophiles use streaming services as their primary source for music.

There appears to be quite a few members that are doing that these days judging by numerous posts.

If you are talking about local streaming of your own rips, I have already covered both types in my original post

 The use of the word STREAMING suggests making it accessible at many or non fixed locations in the premises, NOT a single location, usually via WiFi, or wired to a number of different locations.

[Blackmorec]

1 hour ago, kumakuma said:

 

As I said already, I'm not talking about this kind of streaming and neither are the folks in Rajiv's thread you keep mentioning. 

 

They are typically streaming their own music from a NAS unit attached to their own network although they may also use streaming services as well as another source of music.

 

I would very surprised if any serious audiophiles use streaming services as their primary source for music.

The Rajiv thread is about streaming music data over a network. Both local and remote. 

 

Getting back to the topic of this thread, the reason most young people aren’t caring about Audio has to do with where they find themselves on Maslov’s hierarchy of needs. The current political and business leaders have screwed this generation of young people multiple times thanks to corrupt business practices (dishonest sub prime loans and criminally false debt ratings), offshoring jobs by the millions to increase profits for the few,  zero interest rates thanks to out of control Central Banks’ money printing and now this latest zoonotic virus plague caused (we are told) by criminally negligent food hygiene practices that were well recognised as a severe threat long before any outbreak.  Audio is something to enjoy when all your security needs are met and right now, most young people are nowhere near achieving this goal and really have very little prospect of doing so in the future. 

 

Essentially money is behaving just like all matter in the Universe, coalescing to form stars, planets, asteroid belts, dust clouds of potential and huge tracts of emptiness. 

[firedog]

3 hours ago, sandyk said:

 Ditto..

Firedog brought up streaming with very cheap gear.

 

Yep. And the RPi  4 as a streamer sounds just as good as some equipment costing 5, 10, or 20 times it's price.

You don't have to spend multiple 4 figures to get a very good sounding streamer.

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

1 hour ago, Blackmorec said:

Maslov’s hierarchy of needs

......Revision 1.0  😁

 

[botrytis]

12 hours ago, sandyk said:

 

 Utter rubbish ! Even the PSU area of a computer can  change a little how a Digital Music file sounds, even changes to the PSU area for the OS SSD such as a much cleaner low noise +5V supply.(see attached +12V to Dual +5V PSU <4uV noise)

I am by far from the only member that has reported marked improvements by using a Linear PSU, or improved voltage regulation to the ancillary devices such as SSDs and USB areas. for a PC or Server too.

The front end matters whether you want to believe it or not. Do you really believe that the 100s of A.S. members that retrofitted the Uptone Linear PSU and reported marked improvements in SQ were hearing a different stream of 1s and 0s before and after the changes ?

I don't doubt that you believe that all the reports were due to EXPECTATION  BIAS , which is highly insulting to those many members, as well as the majority that post in Rajiv's massive thread in the Music Servers section of the forum.

A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming 

I note that you also appear to believe that high res is also a waste of time, despite the numerous reports to the contrary , and measurements by highly qualified members like Jussi , and YES, I was able to hear and report back ,clear and accurate differences between Frederick V's posted X and Y files where an original 24/96 file was converted to 16/44.1 and back again.. 

  A recent suggestion by one and a half to securely earth the cases of the internal SSDs in my Desktop PC by measuring the mV difference between their cases and the 0 volts of the internal SMPS PSU, and reducing it by earthing improvements resulted in MARKED improvements in SQ via Coax SPDIF WITHOUT any change in the exported Binary Data. In fact, the original saved file on my old internal HDD, now sounds markedly worse than when this file is copied from there  to another internal SSD/HDD  or USB Memory stick when played from System Memory after these changes, when played with JRiver 26.

 NO, I did NOT expect any more than minimal changes at best, when I followed Gary's advice.

 

I would also recommend that other members using Desktop PC's try one and a half's suggestions. It won't cost them any money either, just a few minutes of their time.

(The 0 volts of an SSD or HDD is internally connected to their metal case)

 

To me, hasn't been proven at all. It is another classic 'Urban Legend' from audiophiles. If you can't hear it, then why bother?

 

 

I mean Benchmark has stated period that Linear PS are not need as a well designed switching supply gives less noise than an LPS. I can't argue with them.

 

People wonder why there are fewer and fewer Audiophiles? Just go to Axpona and one will see why. Too many prejudge on looks and not sound.

 

 

[plissken]

8 hours ago, sandyk said:

There appears to be quite a few members that are doing that these days judging by numerous posts.

If you are talking about local streaming of your own rips, I have already covered both types in my original post

 The use of the word STREAMING suggests making it accessible at many or non fixed locations in the premises, NOT a single location, usually via WiFi, or wired to a number of different locations.

 

I use a VPN Client on my Phone to my PFSense box and use the JRemote app to stream music from my local server while on the go. If I have the needed cell coverage (which I do in town) it's no problem. 

[kumakuma]

8 hours ago, Blackmorec said:

The Rajiv thread is about streaming music data over a network. Both local and remote. 

 

Yes, but I was only talking about the former.

 

As Alex has already highlighted, comparing the sound quality of your own music to music of unknown providence from streaming services is problematic.

[Albrecht]

On 8/26/2020 at 9:13 AM, GUTB said:

So, the state of the audiophile "hobby". Essentially all mainstream and mid-market products marketed towards the "audiophile" are trash. Chip amps, class-D, switching wall wart supply consumer shovelware garbage. No one cares about speakers, everything are cheap mass-produced headphones and IEMs. The resurgence of records ended up just being a lifestyle ornament. The pursuit of quality audio seems to be strictly relegated to retirees spending their savings and using up their credit on boutique manufacturers who still make audiophile grade equipment. Have you tried to educate modern "audiophiles" about the hobby? They don't want to hear it. In fact they just don't care about high-quality audio, it's mostly just a lifestyle accessory to them.

 

Is there absolutely nothing to be done about it? Do we just have to accept most people don't care enough about quality audio to support a mass audiophile market? Do we just have to accept audiophile equipment competes for yacht and RV money?

Cool that you're expressing your opinion.... as so much is based on one's experiences.

 

If all you have to go on is Denon mini-systems. A mid-fi NAD system based system will open up your eyes.... Forget about something like LAMM. In these times, for many reasons: not withstanding the oppression and robbing of the wealth of the middle/lower classes, - both listening to music for it's own sake, and gettting higher performance equipment has become "un-obtanium"

Who can deny that the high performance audio "market," - is dying?

I think that one of the bigger mistakes is that people mis-apply digital file playback, - thinking that they are going to get "better" playback for less money. This is disproven significantly when proper testing occurs....

[Albrecht]

12 hours ago, kumakuma said:

 

As I said already, I'm not talking about this kind of streaming and neither are the folks in Rajiv's thread you keep mentioning. 

 

They are typically streaming their own music from a NAS unit attached to their own network although they may also use streaming services as well as another source of music.

 

I would very surprised if any serious audiophiles use streaming services as their primary source for music.

FWIW  (just an opinion)

I NEVER use the word "streaming" to describe LAN, digital file playback, - even though, - technically, - i would concede that "LAN streaming" should probably be use.

 

IME, - (depending on the system), - streaming from the Internet sounds worse, - and it supports the Netflix model, - which is not good. 

 

When someone uses the word "streaming" i immediately think of Tidal, Roon, and MQA,  and Comcast....

[NOMBEDES]

Maybe people are more worried about feeding their family than $500 powercables.  Audiophiles are a First World artifact.

 

My restaurant is closed, my bar is closed, my gym is closed, my school is in limbo. All those employees are screwed.  
 

What did the Talking Heads say in “Life During Wartime” ?
 

“ain’t got no records to play”

 

 

 

 

[sandyk]

8 hours ago, botrytis said:

I mean Benchmark has stated period that Linear PS are not need as a well designed switching supply gives less noise than an LPS. I can't argue with them.

 

 Unfortunately, the majority of Consumer switching supplies are cheap generic Asian junk, and also inject quite a bit of junk back into the A.C. mains sewer, which may affect other lower signal devices .

My PC still uses a 600W SMPS, but I further clean up the residual noise to the SSDs and LG BR writer., without needing to use extra Linear PSUs like many do, which gives the likelihood of minor earth loops.