Something New Has Arrived :~)

[Michael Ritter]

In my experience, the >90dB of noise rejection to beyond 1GHz and low impedance system ground provided by the 512 Engineering Symmetrical Power Source input transformer are essential for the highest possible audio quality.

We used a similar system (which the 512 Engineering Symmetrical Power Source surpasses) at Pacific Microsonics during development of the HDCD process and the Pacific Microsonics Model One and Model Two studio A/D&D/A converters.

Power line noise diminishes the audibility of quality differences between components, especially digital components, which is why we went to great lengths to have the cleanest possible power and grounding. It’s difficult to optimize circuits or algorithms when you can’t hear the result!  

[mansr]

3 hours ago, Michael Ritter said:

We used a similar system (which the 512 Engineering Symmetrical Power Source surpasses) at Pacific Microsonics during development of the HDCD process

Isn't HDCD an entirely digital process?

[The Computer Audiophile]

13 minutes ago, mansr said:

Isn't HDCD an entirely digital process?

Let’s not go off topic. Your question could lead to pages of interesting but not totally relevant discussion to the topic at hand. 

[jabbr]

5 hours ago, Michael Ritter said:

In my experience, the >90dB of noise rejection to beyond 1GHz and low impedance system ground provided by the 512 Engineering Symmetrical Power Source input transformer are essential for the highest possible audio quality.

We used a similar system (which the 512 Engineering Symmetrical Power Source surpasses) at Pacific Microsonics during development of the HDCD process and the Pacific Microsonics Model One and Model Two studio A/D&D/A converters.

Power line noise diminishes the audibility of quality differences between components, especially digital components, which is why we went to great lengths to have the cleanest possible power and grounding. It’s difficult to optimize circuits or algorithms when you can’t hear the result!  

One of the most important purposes of an isolation transformer (balanced or not) is to break loops with outside equipment which are formed through the power and ground — so called leakage currents. Having a low interwinding capacitance is key. Not knowing the details of this product, undoubtedly they have considered this.

 

The value of of balanced power is improved CMNR.

 

Intetesting that we are looking out to 1Ghz! Is there some actual evidence that 1Ghz leakage currents (or common mode noise) have an audible effect? I’m looking for available measurements not theory.

[christopher3393]

5 hours ago, Michael Ritter said:

In my experience, the >90dB of noise rejection to beyond 1GHz and low impedance system ground provided by the 512 Engineering Symmetrical Power Source input transformer are essential for the highest possible audio quality.

We used a similar system (which the 512 Engineering Symmetrical Power Source surpasses) at Pacific Microsonics during development of the HDCD process and the Pacific Microsonics Model One and Model Two studio A/D&D/A converters.

Power line noise diminishes the audibility of quality differences between components, especially digital components, which is why we went to great lengths to have the cleanest possible power and grounding. It’s difficult to optimize circuits or algorithms when you can’t hear the result!  

 

Welcome Michael Ritter of Berkeley Audio Design. "Michael Ritter, co-founder and business leader of Pacific Microsonics, has extensive experience in audio engineering, facilities design and product development".

 

 

[Jud]

@The Computer Audiophile - I have my audio system powered by an isolation transformer. But I'm glad it's not located in my listening room because it hums like a mf-er. I'm late coming back to the thread so my apologies if this has been answered previously: Have you measured the acoustic noise coming from these at, say, a meter's distance (or the room level measured at that distance when they're on vs. when they're off)?

[The Computer Audiophile]

18 minutes ago, Jud said:

@The Computer Audiophile - I have my audio system powered by an isolation transformer. But I'm glad it's not located in my listening room because it hums like a mf-er. I'm late coming back to the thread so my apologies if this has been answered previously: Have you measured the acoustic noise coming from these at, say, a meter's distance (or the room level measured at that distance when they're on vs. when they're off)?

Dead silent. 
 

 

[Michael Ritter]

3 hours ago, mansr said:

Isn't HDCD an entirely digital process?

Yes, but its only reason to exist is to improve audio quality and the way to determine if audio quality has been improved is by listening.

[jcn3]

On 2/11/2020 at 7:25 AM, christopher3393 said:

@The Computer Audiophile: curious about price. The only mention I've found was a pre- release estimate from RMAF 2017:

 

"Tucked away in the ELAC room was an interesting power conditioning unit developed by Scott Rust of 512 Engineering for Tim Murutani, the Symmetrical Power Source.  The 140-pound unit clearly contains some very large transformers.  The product literature seems to reject the filtering approach taken by other power conditioners, suggesting that it rejects power grid noise purely through the use of balancing the phase of the AC signal, claiming that line filtering limits current delivery.  Pricing is to be determined but the distributor indicated a price would be about $22,000."

 

https://www.hifiplus.com/articles/rocky-mountain-audio-fest-part-one-of-two/?page=2

 

@The Computer Audiophile -- i didn't see a response to this post.  what is the retail price for the two units you received?

[The Computer Audiophile]

5 minutes ago, jcn3 said:

 

@The Computer Audiophile -- i didn't see a response to this post.  what is the retail price for the two units you received?

Stand by ...

[The Computer Audiophile]

Just received pricing info. I wanted to make sure I had the latest before posting. 

 

5kVA = $19,500.00 USD

 

4kVA is not really a production product as it was build solely to be able to air freight cost effectively to audition around the country. 5kVA exceeds the weight limit. Price difference is negligible

[Jon Herron]

I first experienced the importance of really clean power when I was the product development manager at Madrigal Audio Labs, back in the 90s. We developed an AC Regeneration system that provided isolated, incredibly clean power for the voltage gain portion of the big N°33 monoblocks. The first time it was brought online, I was hooked.

 

Most of the improvements we made during product development were incremental in nature. The AC Regeneration system was not. It was one of two "you've gotta be kidding me!" moments for me during those years.

 

More recently, we were fortunate enough to borrow three of these 512 Engineering transformers for use at the CEDIA 2019 show last September. While many things contributed to the performance we were able to achieve at a noisy trade show, these transformers clearly made a difference. We had hour-long lines waiting to get into our demo, and won a Best of Show award. So, we were doing something right.  😉

 

 

 

I share Michael Ritter's opinion about the importance of really clean power. You don't know what you are missing until you have experienced it for yourself. Don't knock it until you've tried it.

[jabbr]

We know that at 1Ghz, the ground is irrelevant— what properties of this device are different than say my Equitech Q? I’m curious.

[JoeWhip]

I agree completely about the need for clean power and have done what I can do to get it. These babies are not in the audio budget. 😢

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 minutes ago, JoeWhip said:

I agree completely about the need for clean power and have done what I can do to get it. These babies are not in the audio budget. 😢

Yeah, not cheap for sure. They are made by hand in ultra low quantities in northern California. The chassis is quite utilitarian and modest. At least one isn't paying for jewelry if he doesn't want it. 

[Michael Ritter]

4 hours ago, jabbr said:

One of the most important purposes of an isolation transformer (balanced or not) is to break loops with outside equipment which are formed through the power and ground — so called leakage currents. Having a low interwinding capacitance is key. Not knowing the details of this product, undoubtedly they have considered this.

 

The value of of balanced power is improved CMNR.

 

Intetesting that we are looking out to 1Ghz! Is there some actual evidence that 1Ghz leakage currents (or common mode noise) have an audible effect? I’m looking for available measurements not theory.

>90dB of noise rejection to beyond 1GHz is indicative of superb broadband common mode rejection in the kHz and MHz regions where the majority of noise products occur.

[JoeWhip]

1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Yeah, not cheap for sure. They are made by hand in ultra low quantities in northern California. The chassis is quite utilitarian and modest. At least one isn't paying for jewelry if he doesn't want it. 

Imagine what they could get for them with some blingy boxes. Don’t give them any ideas. 😎

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 minutes ago, JoeWhip said:

Imagine what they could get for them with some blingy boxes. Don’t give them any ideas. 😎

Ha! Not these guys. Zero interest in bling. It's all about performance. 

[dtgpeter]

As a product designer/developers we have long been aware of the need for low noise power in our research, development and testing environments, and have gone to great lengths to achieve it; transformers, filters, regenerators, dedicated lines, battery systems, etc., all with varying degrees of success.  However, when done well, the improvement helps us discern differences in our designs otherwise buried in the noise floor.

 

Over the last few years we’ve been lucky to have been able to experience Tim Marutani’s 512 Engineering product evolve to what it has become today.  Andrew Jones and I had used one version or another of the product at trade shows as far back as 2017.  While usually exceeding the cost of our entire demo system, we were constantly amazed at how the improved quietness, clarity and reduction in grain allowed us to “look deeper” into the music.  Hotel power is notoriously bad, but we never had a problem with the 512 in place, and were always able to perform impressive demonstrations.

 

You have very likely not heard everything your system can do if you are not using one of these transformers.  While obviously very expensive, most people deeply into this audio hobby pay way more for much less.   

 

I am jealous that Chris has not just one, but two of them for his sound room.  Lucky guy!  

 

Peter Madnick

Consulting Audio Engineer

[fas42]

Just to note that the local audio friend uses isolation transformers in both his rigs; three in total - modest units, but dead quiet. He works in the field of maintaining the electrical equipment used in a large hospital, so has easy access to quality items that really do the job.

[The Computer Audiophile]

4 minutes ago, dtgpeter said:

You have very likely not heard everything your system can do if you are not using one of these transformers.

That's exactly how I now feel peter. It's crazy. 

[fas42]

4 hours ago, Jon Herron said:

I first experienced the importance of really clean power when I was the product development manager at Madrigal Audio Labs, back in the 90s. We developed an AC Regeneration system that provided isolated, incredibly clean power for the voltage gain portion of the big N°33 monoblocks. The first time it was brought online, I was hooked.

 

Most of the improvements we made during product development were incremental in nature. The AC Regeneration system was not. It was one of two "you've gotta be kidding me!" moments for me during those years.

 

...

 

I share Michael Ritter's opinion about the importance of really clean power. You don't know what you are missing until you have experienced it for yourself. Don't knock it until you've tried it.

 

The bowl you over moments come when the audio chain becomes clean enough ... making sure that the power supplies within the gear are working as well as was intended are a major component of achieving that. It does turn out that there are other factors as well, but I'll keep quiet about it here ... 😜.

[fas42]

25 minutes ago, dtgpeter said:

 

 

Over the last few years we’ve been lucky to have been able to experience Tim Marutani’s 512 Engineering product evolve to what it has become today.  Andrew Jones and I had used one version or another of the product at trade shows as far back as 2017.  While usually exceeding the cost of our entire demo system, we were constantly amazed at how the improved quietness, clarity and reduction in grain allowed us to “look deeper” into the music.  Hotel power is notoriously bad, but we never had a problem with the 512 in place, and were always able to perform impressive demonstrations.

 

You have very likely not heard everything your system can do if you are not using one of these transformers.  While obviously very expensive, most people deeply into this audio hobby pay way more for much less.   

 

 

Being able to "look deeper" into the music is the natural outcome of the "sorting out" 😉 process of a setup - using an extremely capable isolating transformer obviously is an excellent add-on for getting there, but is not essential. My first good system 'worked' with no isolating devices in the mains line, but the electronics had good designs for their power supplies; meaty, and multiple transformers within. Would it have been more robust with better isolation? Indeed it would have, especially these days - the more you can fully shield the components from external interference, in every area, the better.

[sandyk]

17 minutes ago, fas42 said:

- using an extremely capable isolating transformer obviously is an excellent add-on for getting there, but is not essential.

 

 It appears to be way more of a problem in 60HZ 117VAC countries, or in high rise apartment buildings with lifts etc. elsewhere

[One and a half]

27 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 My first good system 'worked' with no isolating devices in the mains line, but the electronics had good designs for their power supplies; meaty, and multiple transformers within. Would it have been more robust with better isolation? Indeed it would have, especially these days - the more you can fully shield the components from external interference, in every area, the better.

Same, for years went without an IT, and after installing one, realised what was wrong all those years listening.