Something New Has Arrived :~)

[mansr]

8 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 It appears to be way more of a problem in 60HZ 117VAC countries, or in high rise apartment buildings with lifts etc. elsewhere

The lower voltage means higher currents and thus stronger magnetic fields.

[One and a half]

10 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

 It appears to be way more of a problem in 60HZ 117VAC countries, or in high rise apartment buildings with lifts etc. elsewhere

Also if your house has many other contributors to generating rubbish.

 

Insidious, small scale, but numbers are a problem.

  Vampire SMPS like, microwave, phone chargers, routers, wifi extenders, TV & computers. 

Intermittent monsters

  Fluorescent lamps, oven, cooktop, washing machines, fridge, aircon, light switches

Worst offenders

Energy 'efficient' LED clusters, audio equipment - especially digital, just due to proximity

 

Audio Friendly house items

 Candles

 Soft furnishings

 Good earth (ground)

 Gas appliances

 

 

[fas42]

22 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

 It appears to be way more of a problem in 60HZ 117VAC countries, or in high rise apartment buildings with lifts etc. elsewhere

 

My first guess is that half the voltage means twice the current drain - same impedance in the circuits then causes double the level of noise voltages.

[fas42]

3 minutes ago, One and a half said:

Also if your house has many other contributors to generating rubbish.

 

Insidious, small scale, but numbers are a problem.

  Vampire SMPS like, microwave, phone chargers, routers, wifi extenders, TV & computers. 

Intermittent monsters

  Fluorescent lamps, oven, cooktop, washing machines, fridge, aircon, light switches

Worst offenders

Energy 'efficient' LED clusters, audio equipment - especially digital, just due to proximity

 

Audio Friendly house items

 Candles

 Soft furnishings

 Good earth (ground)

 Gas appliances

 

 

 

When I visit the local audio mate, he shuts the whole house down 😁  - as much as he can. So, now he only normally organises a listen when the rest of the family are absent - no carry on, "Why can't I go onto the Internet ... ?!!" 😄

[sandyk]

16 minutes ago, One and a half said:

Also if your house has many other contributors to generating rubbish.

 Hi Gary

 In my experience, in most typical Au. suburban type areas, you only need a couple of decent mains filters at the right places to ensure no problems. ( I use 2 DIY filters including the attached with my P.C.)

 Failing fluorescent lights and cheap and nasty Energy 'efficient' LED clusters  can cause these problems, yet well designed equipment shouldn't normally be susceptible to the "Intermittent Monsters".

You do of course , however, need a decent Mains Earth .

 

Regards

Alex

 

[One and a half]

45 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 Hi Gary

 In my experience, in most typical Au. suburban type areas, you only need a couple of decent mains filters at the right places to ensure no problems. ( I use 2 DIY filters including the attached with my P.C.)

 Failing fluorescent lights and cheap and nasty Energy 'efficient' LED clusters  can cause these problems, yet well designed equipment shouldn't normally be susceptible to the "Intermittent Monsters".

You do of course , however, need a decent Mains Earth .

 

Regards

Alex

 

Glad you brought that up.

Here is a typical circuit of an EMC filter.  Now draw a connection between the input neutral and earth (left GND).

 

For 120V and 230V TN networks where the neutral is bonded to earth at the panel (TN system) the potentials along the neutral to GND depend on the length of the wire run, but certainly is an impedance, small one, but it's there.

 

Observe cap CY2 on the output. Asymmetrical ICMN is very one sided in a TN system, the CY1 doing all the work, depending on impedances, let's say the voltage across CY2 is 2V-5V, if you're lucky ? The pair of caps are more or less the same as CX2, so another stage of differential rejection, fine, but common mode is more insidious. By design, the voltage across CY1 and CY2 should be 50/50. Well, why not give the two caps what they want, and tie the left GND to the 0V of a 120-0-120 or a 60-0-60 transformer. See what I'm getting at here. 

 

The main earth to the transformer is tied to this 0V, so the earth impedance to the source is very low 👍 as far as the filter is concerned. 

 

I can understand using the right GND terminal for the equipment earths, since the frame of the EMC filter is a shield in itself and opposes RF propagation. I use the 0V to terminate all earths from the equipment, since all earths are equal, but depends on the wiring and enclosures. The split reactors are a low pass filter at 50/60Hz, but not too sure where the line is drawn at the frequencies where the reactors attenuation falls off and the caps take over.

 

EMC filters are effective for digital devices where the AC current is small, but not that great benefit for power amps.

[sandyk]

3 minutes ago, One and a half said:

EMC filters are effective for digital devices where the AC current is small, but not that great benefit for power amps.

 I get your point about CY2.

 I do have a different DIY filter in line with my 15W Class A's separate Regulated PSU which also has 2 separate toroidal transformers inside it that supply my Preamp 18-0-18VAC , but I would never use a filter in line with a high powered amplifier.

 I do not feel the need to do any more in this area judging by what I have seen at the output of my Preamp at maximum volume using my CRO at maximum sensitivity,in conjunction with a very low noise  x10 gain Preamplifier where the result is more like a blurred line with what appears to be a tiny amount of almost invisible SMPS crud from the nearby TV .

[fas42]

24 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 I get your point about CY2.

 I do have a different DIY filter in line with my 15W Class A's separate Regulated PSU which also has 2 separate toroidal transformers inside it that supply my Preamp 18-0-18VAC , but I would never use a filter in line with a high powered amplifier.

 I do not feel the need to do any more in this area judging by what I have seen at the output of my Preamp at maximum volume using my CRO at maximum sensitivity,in conjunction with a very low noise  x10 gain Preamplifier where the result is more like a blurred line with what appears to be a tiny amount of almost invisible SMPS crud from the nearby TV .

 

I devised my own design for a mains filter, which doesn't rely on items like current limited cores - this should be usable on the highest powered amps, because there was nothing to saturate, or limit peak currents. Note, it was not universal; the parts were such to match the, very typical, input side of the component's power supply.

 

Quite effective ... I injected massive 240V arcing noise into the mains, nearby - without filter, spluttering galore from the speakers; with, dead quiet system.

[One and a half]

38 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

I devised my own design for a mains filter, which doesn't rely on items like current limited cores - this should be usable on the highest powered amps, because there was nothing to saturate, or limit peak currents. Note, it was not universal; the parts were such to match the, very typical, input side of the component's power supply.

 

Quite effective ... I injected massive 240V arcing noise into the mains, nearby - without filter, spluttering galore from the speakers; with, dead quiet system.

Oh, 'mine's bigger than yours', ok.🙄

[infonut]

Has anyone compared the 512 Engineering Symmetrical Power Source input transformer to one of the Stromtank units and have a preference?

[fas42]

16 minutes ago, One and a half said:

Oh, 'mine's bigger than yours', ok.🙄

 

I find people's behaviour fascinating - if I don't describe what I do to achieve better sound, I'm abused - if I do contribute some comment relating to how I dealt with an issue mentioned in a post, I'm abused ... funny ol' place, this world ... 🙂

 

Note the tagline ... 😝

[The Computer Audiophile]

8 minutes ago, infonut said:

Has anyone compared the 512 Engineering Symmetrical Power Source input transformer to one of the Stromtank units and have a preference?

I’ve heard both and have no doubt the 512 solution is superior in the systems I’ve heard. The Stromtank is a neat solution and certainly looks cool, but I don’t know that it stands up to something like this symmetrical power source. 

[fas42]

Again, for those who have a DIY bent, and want to try the Felicia method for creating your own isolation and balancing filter, which I mentioned in an earlier post - which should achieve most of what a commercial product can do ... I checked the cost of the key raw ingredients, available locally, and on the first site that came up, that should tally to about $AU1000 for a 4kVA capable effort. A lot cheaper for lower power requirements of course, but shows how much an energetic enthusiast can save, if they want to experiment ...

 

Would be certainly how I would go about it, if motivated.

[bbosler]

 

I firmly believe that one of the main factors that should determine the value of an audio component is how it performs, not what it cost to manufacture. It is also determined by how easily somebody else can deliver the same performance for less money. So  $20,000 for what appears to be basically a balanced transformer seems excessive no matter how you value it. Knowing what I know about electronics, it is highly doubtful this guy has discovered a proprietary breakthrough in transformer technology that makes this one worth that much more than the competition, which is easily half that.

 

Hand wound, sounds sexy but at the end of the day… who cares? 

 

 

I do see the value in balanced power and of course never say never until you’ve heard it, but I do not see the value in paying an extra $10K to get his

 

[dtgpeter]

I presume you do not have either a schematic or manufacturing specification for the 512 Engineering transformer?  Nor do I.  I can tell you that the specifications were so difficult to achieve that a world-wide search resulted in very few manufacturers willing to even try, and fewer still who were capable.  Many of the other components are similarly difficult to source,  The results of all this work is a remarkable product.  While that, perhaps, is not of value to yourself, the company has found it has been to every potential customer who has evaluated it so far. 

 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

I’ve had the new RAAL-requisite SR1a true ribbon headphones and a Berkeley Audio Design RS3 connected to the 512 4kVA and the results are amazing. 

[bbosler]

As I said, never say never until you've heard it, so I'm not closing my mind to or disparaging this device. However, it seems to me the jury is out on this until somebody does some listening tests that compare this device with the others available. There are a lot of options when it comes to balanced power. Every review I read about these devices seems to go on and on about how wonderful they are. So I'm not questioning whether or  not this unit improves the performance of a system. My questions is what sets this device apart from the others?

 

As far as specifications go, that is a bit of a red herring. At the end of the day it really doesn't matter how difficult they are to achieve or past a certain point even what they are. You may be too young to remember the Julian Hirsch era at "Stereo Review" where he raved on and on in the early days of transistor amplifiers giving glowing reviews of amplifiers that obtained lower and lower and lower distortion. Turns out they sounded like crap even though they measured very well. So bravo to these guys for achieving spectacular measurements.  Perhaps it is a monumental feat that they achieved 20dB rejection at 1 gigahertz or whatever the numbers are. Just not convinced it  makes any real world difference.

 

I have no doubt that Chris is hearing the stated improvements, but does this device perform better than those that cost much less? Given the challenges involved I doubt we ever see a balanced power shootout. One significant hurdle is the sheer size of these things as has been noted. Couple that with the difficulties in installing some and comparative reviews become logistically very difficult if not impossible. For instance, I  read a glowing review of an Equitech 5Kv wall mount unit that weighs over 300 pounds and had to be installed by electricians as part of the electrical system versus just plugging it in.  The reviewer bought it before the review so he could get it installed. Does the unit discussed here outperform the $10K Equitech unit? We'll probably never know.

[The Computer Audiophile]

52 minutes ago, bbosler said:

I have no doubt that Chris is hearing the stated improvements, but does this device perform better than those that cost much less? Given the challenges involved I doubt we ever see a balanced power shootout. One significant hurdle is the sheer size of these things as has been noted. Couple that with the difficulties in installing some and comparative reviews become logistically very difficult if not impossible. For instance, I  read a glowing review of an Equitech 5Kv wall mount unit that weighs over 300 pounds and had to be installed by electricians as part of the electrical system versus just plugging it in.  The reviewer bought it before the review so he could get it installed. Does the unit discussed here outperform the $10K Equitech unit? We'll probably never know.

Yeah, this is one of those unfortunate realities. These things are beasts and the commitment it takes to evaluate them is quite serious and expensive.

[Peter Soderberg]

II am Pete Soderberg of MartinLogan so am not hiding anything.  I have been introduced to this forum and it definitely operates at a higher level than some others out there so i plan to visit once in awhile. 

 I am open minded but after many years of doing show set ups, i tend towards the jaded.   Many folks have offered their goods with the hopes of a good show and of course, I welcome many of the fine folks that have helped us produce good sound over the years.  As one can imagine being in hotel rooms, offices, etc. i have a soft spot for good AC management as it is not possible to get good sound with a noise floor that interferes.   Being a stat guy, low level detail is one of the strengths that i enjoy.  

For last years Bay Area show, i think i may have gotten the best sound i may have ever achieved.  I used 3 of these products and even thought it was an older hotel with AC issues, i believe we achieved some of the best detail i have ever heard in spite of that.   I also did some comparisons in the shop to approve the use and heard improvements as compared to some other very will known products.   I recommend a careful evaluation but i believe these are the best i have heard.  They are expensive but this is a great example of god being in the details.  

 I have attached some images of the show to give you an idea of the system.  Not the craziest out there but certainly all goods are at a high level. 

 

 

[cjf]

I'm sure I am not understanding but how is this device a 5VA unit when the Input source assuming standard single phase power at 20A wall plug only generates 2400VA unless my math is wrong? It appears to also only have a 20A Input receptacle also. I didn't think transformers could create more power on the output than on the input unless they could somehow operate at above 100% efficiency ?

 

 

[fas42]

37 minutes ago, cjf said:

I'm sure I am not understanding but how is this device a 5VA unit when the Input source assuming standard single phase power at 20A wall plug only generates 2400VA unless my math is wrong? It appears to also only have a 20A Input receptacle also. I didn't think transformers could create more power on the output than on the input unless they could somehow operate at above 100% efficiency ?

 

 

 

Simply means that the unit can handle loads up to 5kVA while still working within specifications - can handle 5VA, 50VA, 500VA, or 5,000VA while still being well behaved.

 

The real world value of this high performance capability is that it is very low impedance to any high current demands of anything plugged into it - meaning high powered audio amplifiers won't be degraded in performance when the mains current is filtered by such a unit.

[One and a half]

2 hours ago, cjf said:

I'm sure I am not understanding but how is this device a 5VA unit when the Input source assuming standard single phase power at 20A wall plug only generates 2400VA unless my math is wrong? It appears to also only have a 20A Input receptacle also. I didn't think transformers could create more power on the output than on the input unless they could somehow operate at above 100% efficiency ?

 

 

The transformer maybe wired for 240 V input and 120 V output. Upstream protection is sized accordingly, which is often tricky, since the fuse or breaker needs to allow the inrush to pass for the first 1/2 cycle (10ms for 50Hz systems, 8ms for 60Hz systems). Inrush current for toroid types can be 11-15 x rated continuous primary current. To make things easier circuit breakers are classified in IEC systems as Class A, B, C, D. Class A is for protection of non reactive elements such as heaters.

 

Class B for general outlets in the home or office. Class C and Class D for starting motors and transformers which allow time for the inrush, and will still protect against a short circuit, since that value is a lot higher and shorter duration. This is simialr to fast blo and slo blo in the fuse world. How slow is slo? There's curves for fuses which show the melting time of how much current and how long that current can be maintained.

 

A 5 A glass fuse can often be overloaded to 150%, but not for very long, follows an inverse time characteristic. A ceramic fuse of the same rating could handle more current due to the package's heat dissipation. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

3 hours ago, cjf said:

I'm sure I am not understanding but how is this device a 5VA unit when the Input source assuming standard single phase power at 20A wall plug only generates 2400VA unless my math is wrong? It appears to also only have a 20A Input receptacle also. I didn't think transformers could create more power on the output than on the input unless they could somehow operate at above 100% efficiency ?

 

 

I can use 30amp or 240v with the 5kVA. 

[Summit]

5 hours ago, cjf said:

I'm sure I am not understanding but how is this device a 5VA unit when the Input source assuming standard single phase power at 20A wall plug only generates 2400VA unless my math is wrong? It appears to also only have a 20A Input receptacle also. I didn't think transformers could create more power on the output than on the input unless they could somehow operate at above 100% efficiency ?

 

 

 

Like you are pointing out vary few have outlets with more than 20A in their listing room. This type of mains power cleaner/conditioner are not working (biased) in class A, maybe not even in class A/B. If they would they would consume a lot of power and generate a lot of heat.

[FredM]

On 2/6/2020 at 6:57 PM, The Computer Audiophile said:

Two transformers. One 4kva and one 5kva.

 

http://512engineering.com/index.php/power-delivery

 

Impressive pair, are you planning to compare them with the Transparent Power Isolator? (A glimpse on the right of the picture??)