The problem with subjective impressions

[semente]

26 minutes ago, mansr said:

 

Disagreed. Long-term changes (e.g. electrolytic caps drying out) won't be undone by any duration of operation.

 

But apparently one DAC manufacturer has designed an in-built system which compensates for component ageing:

 

http://www.lavryengineering.com/wiki/index.php/LavryGold_DA924

[marce]

24 minutes ago, semente said:

 

But apparently one DAC manufacturer has designed an in-built system which compensates for component ageing:

 

http://www.lavryengineering.com/wiki/index.php/LavryGold_DA924

I would hope there are no electrolytic caps in any critical signal path/voltage reference. This is more for resistors and usually voltage references and analogue signal paths, where hopefully very stable caps have been used such as COG often with a 0.1% drift over life. Thermal control of sections of circuits avoids thermal drift and is used quite a lot for designs going into areas of temperature extremes, ADC's in space... And more mundane circuitry such as monitoring kit where its going to be cold... Keeping electronics warm in a cold environment is often easier than keeping it cool in a hot one, heat is not good for electronics.

One power supply manufacturer I know pre-age certain resistors in critical to avoid ageing drift over the life of the unit... The output is 30kV +/-0.2V though over the entire life of the supply...

[sandyk]

52 minutes ago, mansr said:

Agreed.

 

Disagreed. Long-term changes (e.g. electrolytic caps drying out) won't be undone by any duration of operation.

 

That is not my experience with electros such as used in the John Linsley Hood PSU add-on capacitance multiplier section where they have around 600mV across them.

[mansr]

1 hour ago, sandyk said:

That is not my experience with electros such as used in the John Linsley Hood PSU add-on capacitance multiplier section where they have around 600mV across them.

I doubt it has the ability to resurrect dead components.

[sandyk]

I wasn't talking about dead components. I was talking about electros that didn't have a huge number of hours on them, and in fact, many of the constructors of the JLH PCBs, of which >800 were supplied worldwide, found that initially when using 2 x parallel 4,700uF in the capacitance multiplier area,that the transistor powering them often became quite warm in the first 24 hours or so, and it was better to form them using a bench PSU before use. This wasn't a problem when using 2 x 2,200uF though.

NUMEROUS constructors reported that the sound quality went through cycles initially, where with around about around 30 hours on the PCB it sounded like something was very wrong. After approx. 72 hours of use they appear to have fully stabilised.

 

 Many have also found that NOS electros that haven't been used also benefit from a period of time on a Bench PSU or a device called ä "Cap Rack" before installation.

[Ralf11]

what we need is a  DAC manufacturer to design an in-built system which compensates for neural accommodation

[sandyk]

55 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

what we need is a  DAC manufacturer to design an in-built system which compensates for neural accommodation

 

 What the forum needs is an inbuilt filter to automatically remove your inane and non wanted comments that add nothing of value to the threads.

[Allan F]

1 hour ago, sandyk said:

 

 What the forum needs is an inbuilt filter to automatically remove your inane and non wanted comments that add nothing of value to the threads.

 

As you know, the forum already has an option to hide a user's posts (except when quoted by another user).

[sandyk]

21 minutes ago, Allan F said:

As you know, the forum already has an option to hide a user's posts (except when quoted by another user).

Allan

 We have been through this before. The problem is where certain members occasionally do have something quite worthwhile to contribute in a particular thread .

 There are some subjects where Ralf11 IS well informed.

Regards

Alex

[fas42]

19 hours ago, Allan F said:

 

Yes. In particular, rock music containing electric guitar driving a guitar amp into distortion tends to make the sound quite distorted on playback.

 

On a serious note, example symptoms are that, playing classical prior to conditioning yields string section tone which is dull and lifeless. I would then play, yes, heavy driving rock for an hour or so; and then repeat that same orchestral number - the strings are now sweet, full of character, pleasing to listen to.

 

There's one pretty obvious reason why this occurs; the power supply smoothing caps, and decoupling units sprinkled throughout have an internal resistance, the ESR, which falls as their temperature rises - if one does some analysis of circuits, the effectiveness of the caps is highly dependent on that ESR - a very straightforward, known physical behaviour.

 

https://www.avnet.com/wps/portal/abacus/resources/article/understanding-esr-in-electrolytic-capacitors/

 

[Ralf11]

1 hour ago, sandyk said:

 

 What the forum needs is an inbuilt filter to automatically remove your inane and non wanted comments that add nothing of value to the threads.

 

Should I report your inane hate-filled comment ??

 

or just chalk it up to smoke inhalation?

[Allan F]

1 hour ago, sandyk said:

 There are some subjects where Ralf11 IS well informed.

 

The forum also provides an option to exercise if you have reason to believe that an Ignored User may have posted something of interest or value. IMO and experience, such instances are few and far between.

[Ralf11]

maybe he doesn't want to close his mind

[marce]

On 1/4/2020 at 11:39 PM, Allan F said:

 

The forum also provides an option to exercise if you have reason to believe that an Ignored User may have posted something of interest or value. IMO and experience, such instances are few and far between.

I get the impression from these sort of comment on this thread and similar comments on other threads by others, that the hardcore subjective fraternity won't be happy until I and certain other members are banned and every thread is censored and cleansed of any comments they don't like. The forum has already been stifled by recent events and there are specific threads to discuss this, instead of every thread getting polluted by this negativity. What was an interesting forum full of lively debate has turned into a rather dull place, where the only conversations allowed are approved ones.

[Solstice380]

43 minutes ago, marce said:

I get the impression from these sort of comment on this thread and similar comments on other threads by others, that the hardcore subjective fraternity won't be happy until I and certain other members are banned and every thread is censored and cleansed of any comments they don't like. The forum has already been stifled by recent events and there are specific threads to discuss this, instead of every thread getting polluted by this negativity. What was an interesting forum full of lively debate has turned into a rather dull place, where the only conversations allowed are approved ones.

 

Agreed.  The epitome of "cancel culture".  NOT what , I think, most of us here want.

[Ralf11]

6 hours ago, marce said:

I get the impression from these sort of comment on this thread and similar comments on other threads by others, that the hardcore subjective fraternity won't be happy until I and certain other members are banned and every thread is censored and cleansed of any comments they don't like. The forum has already been stifled by recent events and there are specific threads to discuss this, instead of every thread getting polluted by this negativity. What was an interesting forum full of lively debate has turned into a rather dull place, where the only conversations allowed are approved ones.

 

That's right.  IIRC, Bill explained why that is.

[Allan F]

7 hours ago, marce said:

I get the impression from these sort of comment on this thread and similar comments on other threads by others, that the hardcore subjective fraternity won't be happy until I and certain other members are banned and every thread is censored and cleansed of any comments they don't like. The forum has already been stifled by recent events and there are specific threads to discuss this, instead of every thread getting polluted by this negativity. What was an interesting forum full of lively debate has turned into a rather dull place, where the only conversations allowed are approved ones.

 

Your interpretation of my post does not at all reflect my intention or beliefs. I have no interest in banning people. That power is Chris' alone. exercised when he believes a member has egregiously breached the rules of the forum. As for "censorship", my post was simply a reminder that individual members can hide the posts of those users who they find to be offensive, of no value, or both. I do not advocate the general "cleaning of any comments they don't like" from any forum. Having said that, I reserve the right, as does every member, to attempt to avoid being subjected to what I consider to be the pollution spewed by certain members. It has nothing to do with disagreeing with a philosophical point of view, as evidenced by the fact that you are not one of the very view members on my Ignore List.

[marce]

15 hours ago, Allan F said:

 

Your interpretation of my post does not at all reflect my intention or beliefs. I have no interest in banning people. That power is Chris' alone. exercised when he believes a member has egregiously breached the rules of the forum. As for "censorship", my post was simply a reminder that individual members can hide the posts of those users who they find to be offensive, of no value, or both. I do not advocate the general "cleaning of any comments they don't like" from any forum. Having said that, I reserve the right, as does every member, to attempt to avoid being subjected to what I consider to be the pollution spewed by certain members. It has nothing to do with disagreeing with a philosophical point of view, as evidenced by the fact that you are not one of the very view members on my Ignore List.

Sorry I used your post to make my point, on reflection another post, on another thread (Que Sam, Play it once, would probably been better for my mini rant...😀

[Jud]

23 hours ago, marce said:

What was an interesting forum full of lively debate

Debate doesn’t interest me in the least. I get more than enough in my day job. 🙂

 

What this place used to be full of years ago was a bunch of people trying to *help* each other as we all learned a little more about computer/digital audio. Learning more is what interests me.

 

It’s easily possible to be helpful and informative without debating.

[marce]

3 hours ago, Jud said:

Debate doesn’t interest me in the least. I get more than enough in my day job. 🙂

 

What this place used to be full of years ago was a bunch of people trying to *help* each other as we all learned a little more about computer/digital audio. Learning more is what interests me.

 

It’s easily possible to be helpful and informative without debating.

Still is, just no reference to physics, electronics, engineering or perception allowed, pure belief only, even the faintest sniff of technical intrusion is often met with discord, such as a recent thread on master clocks where relevant technical intrusions were shot down before they even began.

 

[Ralf11]

The discord arises from people who don't understand physics, don't understand cognitive psychology, and/or think that one or a small number of measurements fully explain SQ.

 

I think that covers all the bases...

[marce]

14 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

The discord arises from people who don't understand physics, don't understand cognitive psychology, and/or think that one or a small number of measurements fully explain SQ.

 

I think that covers all the bases...

That's why I think open discussion is important to sort the facts from the fiction, what is important, what has the most effect... Input from all sides...

[Jud]

1 hour ago, marce said:

Still is, just no reference to physics, electronics, engineering or perception allowed, pure belief only, even the faintest sniff of technical intrusion is often met with discord, such as a recent thread on master clocks where relevant technical intrusions were shot down before they even began.

 

Where I work, some genius decreed that response letters should reiterate and then reply point by point to every customer or regulator complaint, so we could be sure we had completely answered all complaints and questions. All of our responses were of the form “You say..., but *we* say....” They were all extended arguments in written form. For any customer or regulator to say we were right, it meant admitting they were wrong.

 

I put a stop to it. We now simply make  our points plainly, concisely and respectfully, being pleasant where that is  possible without being supercilious. No one has to think about whether they’re admitting they’re wrong; they can just consider what we’ve said on its own merits.

 

The applicability to this forum is that contributions can lead to different conclusions on their own merits without being oppositional or argumentative. I know that you for one have a lot of technical knowledge to contribute and read your posts with interest because of it. Of course even contributions that aren’t argumentative may be received with an argument. 🙂 That can’t be helped, unfortunately.

 

I have no illusions that people will change much, if at all. But it would be nice if everyone could try to keep being helpful in mind.

[Solstice380]

14 minutes ago, Jud said:

For any customer or regulator to say we were right, it meant admitting they were wrong.

 

I know that you have a pretty good grasp on some science fundamentals, but an area where you aren't as familiar as law is the scientific / engineering world.  I have been published in refereed journals and been a reviewer.  In the science world you have to tell someone specifically where and why their assumptions or conclusions aren't / can't be correct.  There are no ifs, ands or buts - it's all physics.  Somebody failed to tell the cold-fusion folks they had their heads somewhere besides in the lab.  There are nicer ways to say it, perhaps, but as scientists and engineers it is our responsibility to not let the idiots of the world try to make shit up as they go.  People also aren't always good at communication (No, really?) so the way they write conflates facts with subjective impressions.  And, some just don't know the difference in their own mind.

 

 

[Jud]

33 minutes ago, Solstice380 said:

 

I know that you have a pretty good grasp on some science fundamentals, but an area where you aren't as familiar as law is the scientific / engineering world.  I have been published in refereed journals and been a reviewer.  In the science world you have to tell someone specifically where and why their assumptions or conclusions aren't / can't be correct.  There are no ifs, ands or buts - it's all physics.  Somebody failed to tell the cold-fusion folks they had their heads somewhere besides in the lab.  There are nicer ways to say it, perhaps, but as scientists and engineers it is our responsibility to not let the idiots of the world try to make shit up as they go.  People also aren't always good at communication (No, really?) so the way they write conflates facts with subjective impressions.  And, some just don't know the difference in their own mind.

 

Let me pose a hypothetical situation involving communication between an engineer and a layperson.

 

You're an engineer, and your neighbor tells you about a fuel additive he's using in his car that you know for a fact can't work. Do you figure you'll get a more positive reception confronting him as directly as possible, or trying to help him understand in a friendly way that this stuff won't work?

 

You explain to him it won't work and why, but he persists in believing and in purchasing the additive. Do you suppose you'll meet with better success if you repeatedly explain to him why he's wrong?