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The problem with subjective impressions


Summit

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5 minutes ago, esldude said:

Actually the reverse is usually true.  High voltage lower current in tube amps.  Lower voltage higher current in solid state.  But both are similarly related to the power output vs power drawn from the wall plug.

 

I know that I saw a thread where the Atmasphere OTL guy was talking about how me easily measured voltage drops along a power cord, and that the sound of the amp can suffer because of this.   

 

My tube amp came with its own specially designed cord that is rather long and stiff.  I have never tried it on the solid stage amp, which goes to show that I am not a very good subjective audiophile.

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On 12/29/2019 at 7:06 AM, Summit said:

The problem with subjective impressions is not that they are made by listening and comparing different devices. At least not in my opinion. The problem is that when we describe the difference between diverse hi-fi stuff, we are often too subjective in our descriptions. By subjective, I mean that we often use exactly the same terms and adjectives to describe the difference, whether the difference is relatively small or if it is more significant.

 

Now, I'm pretty sure some people disagree with me on this, and think that they describe their subjective observations in an objective way. Okay there are exceptions, of course, but I would say they are in the minority.

 

I think that no matter what parts of a hi-fi system, placement and the room itself we believe are most important, it is often difficult when reading reviews or impressions to understand the reviewer's gradation difference between a little but observable - to that sounds like a completely different hi-fi system. If you do not already know from your own experience that the speakers and their placement in the room almost always have a much greater impact on the sound quality than a power cable, frame memory or a switch, it can be difficult to interpret how much impact we are really talking about. Now, I think most people here know the difference I described, but maybe not between all other parts of our hi-fi chain.

 

Anyway I've read a large number of reviews and impressions and BELIEVE that the “problem” is because we often describe subjective differences too subjective and in more or less the same way regardless of whether we describe more significant differences from two completely different types of amplifiers or two external power supplies of the same type. What I want to say is that although I think there are relevant differences between different cables, hard drives, PSUs, external clocks and so on, but because of how we usually describe our observations in the same way, it is often difficult to know how big a difference it actually is at the system level and compared to other upgrades we can do for the same money.

 

I am all for subjective observations, but think that we can all benefit if we can get a little more objective in our descriptions in our reviews and impressions. I have also observed that the reviews that are more moderate written do not become as "popular" as those where it seems that the difference is of a more revolving nature. Yes, I actually think there has been a steady inflation of superlatives generally in the hi-fi world, and who really benefits from that? Not one of us I would think. If someone buys something and believes now my audio system will sound superb, but does not, well then the person can be burnt and not captivate observations describing the more significant differences of other gear, because the exact same superlative has been used, and reused. What I wish for is that we all would try to describe the subjective differences more nuanced and in a more objective way and not as if all parts of the audio chain play the same role for SQ, although of course many small individual differences together make more significance.

 

The question is how can I / we describe the difference between devices in a detailed way but still not make it sound like the difference is bigger than it really is?

 

I know that some reviewers wait several months before writing and publishing their review. Maybe we can get a better perspective on the actual sound difference that way? Less FOTM and talk about burn in.

 

TD; LR I think that we would all benefit on some sort of categorizing of how big the difference is in relative terms and in the grand scheme of things instead of as it was an isolated part of the audio chain.

 

And rant

Interesting rant and one that I don’t necessarily disagree with but obviously don’t agree with all points. 
 

When I write I am always cognizant of which words I use. If I say something is the best, it must be the best or I’ve just mislead people. I frequently use the terms good and great to describe two different levels of quality. There are gradations within these as well unfortunately. 
 

I think subjective writers must understand they can’t please everyone with their style and choice of words. I write to please the mythical reader that is myself. In other words, would I like the review and get something out of it if I was in the reader’s shoes. For the most part this goes a long way as opposed to writing for other people or trying to please others by writing what I think they want to read. 
 

 

Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems AudiophileStyleStickerWhite2.0.png AudiophileStyleStickerWhite7.1.4.png

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On 12/29/2019 at 5:06 AM, Summit said:

The question is how can I / we describe the difference between devices in a detailed way but still not make it sound like the difference is bigger than it really is?

 

I don't know that there is an answer to this question. Part of the problem is that we all don't necessarily hear the same way and what I may experience as a subtle difference, you may experience as a major one. A possible answer is to simply describe the difference as audible, and limit the detailed description to the nature or characteristics of the difference as opposed to its magnitude. But that makes it more difficult for someone to decide, based on the description, if the difference is significant enough to justify the expenditure of changing the device.

 

Ultimately, I suppose one can only use these experiences as guides to whether a device is of sufficient interest to investigate further. :)

"Relax, it's only hi-fi. There's never been a hi-fi emergency." - Roy Hall

"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." - William Bruce Cameron

 

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9 hours ago, Allan F said:

if the difference is significant enough to justify the expenditure of changing the device.

 

Your whole post is good. I think that this (quoted) is always going to be a personal thing, as you say.  How do you gauge the value of an incremental improvement to someone other than yourself?  Hell, I wrestle with myself all the time over that one!  I LOVE the sound of my system as it is - best I've ever had in my life since I dove into this rabbit hole buying good equipment starting in the early 80s.  The incremental for me would cost huuuuge money but for someone else starting out it may not.  And my gains will, most likely, be less than theirs.

 

I used to (somewhat) jokingly say:  The universe is 100% physics and 100% personal preference.  Respect both!

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39 minutes ago, Richard Dale said:

The HiFi hobby has a substantial DIY and modding component to it, along with tweaking, trying out different combinations of gear, sharing great music we’ve come across, and various other activities that aren’t about just passively buying stuff. All of which make it a hobby, and a bit more than just consumerism in my opinion.

 

Hi Richard

 

I'm sure we agree that unless you're making the music yourself, that music consumption is by definition a consumer activity.

 

DIY is a very small percentage of the overall audiophile market.

 

And lastly, I'll say that your arrival in this forum was precipitated my what I call your "Nikita Khrushchev moment" at, wait for it, an audiophile consumer trade show.

 

I'm not trying to disparage audiophilia, but I don't think grandiosity helps the cause IMHO.

 

 

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1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

For many audiophiles the hobby is about the journey as well as the destination. It’s also about feeding the soul after a rough day or week. 
 

To me it’s much more than many make it out to be. Sure, I know a couple “rich” guys with five Patricia Barber CDs and $250,000 systems. But, let’s not let the tail wag the dog. The vast majority, in my experience, love the journey and destination and get so much out of listening to music. 

 

Perhaps this is part of the "subjectivist/objectivist" schism.  I consume music during every part of my day.  In the shower, on the way to work, at work, on the way home, at home, and I even have a bedside headphone rig.

 

Would all the gear that I use to consume music pass audiophile muster?  Probably not.  But to me, it's inescapable that consumption of music and the acquisition of gear is a rather pure form of consumerism.  How old is your oldest DAC Chris and how many do you have?  I'm asking that question because I kind of know the answer, but I think the answer will bolster my position.

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13 minutes ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

How old is your oldest DAC Chris and how many do you have?  I'm asking that question because I kind of know the answer, but I think the answer will bolster my position.


I purchased a PS Audio DAC around 2008 and purchased the original Berkeley Audio Design Alpha DAC around 2009. 
 

Total number of DACs is probably around 5. This doesn’t include the DACs coming in / going out for review. 

Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems AudiophileStyleStickerWhite2.0.png AudiophileStyleStickerWhite7.1.4.png

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3 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I’m at the Subaru dealer getting a recall on my Impreza fixed. 
 

My situation is a bit different in that I have much more gear here than a normal person, due to my job. 

 

Fair enough.  But perhaps we agree that you're even more of a consumer than most?

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53 minutes ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

I consume music during every part of my day.  In the shower, on the way to work, at work, on the way home, at home, and I even have a bedside headphone rig.

 

29 minutes ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

But perhaps we agree that you're even more of a consumer than most?

 

You may have more "systems" than me, based on your previous quote about how often and where you listen. 

 

I'm really not sure what you're getting at with this consumer / consumerism discussion. I'd love to be educated a bit about what you're getting at. 

Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems AudiophileStyleStickerWhite2.0.png AudiophileStyleStickerWhite7.1.4.png

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