Hqplayer: best NAA with best sound quality

[Miska]

17 minutes ago, sledwards said:

How is this deficiency overcome in Embedded OS and why can't it be implemented in NAA OS? Just wondering. 

 

It is not deficiency, it is fully intentional design decision.

 

It is overcome by using bridge interface on HQPlayer OS. But that means having overhead of the software switch stack. NAA OS doesn't need to deal with this overhead, it is intentionally as slim and light as possible. Non-issue for most target hardware, since most has only one ethernet interface (UP Gateway, RPi4, various SoMs, etc).

 

If you want, you can adjust HQPlayer OS configuration since it runs off a regular file system. This is very hard on NAA OS since it is running from RAM disk (only on x64, not on RPi4), meaning that any change will be lost on reboot.

 

[sdolezalek]

This is slightly off-topic, but one consideratiuon I had really overlooked in choice of NAA was using fiber rather than Ethernet as an input.  I am currently using an UltraRendu (which limits me to Ethernet), but I recently did a comparison between running Cat6UTP to my CISCO 2960 Catalyst switch and running multimode fiber to the same switch and then just two feet of Ethernet to the UltraRendu.  The difference was astounding in favor of the fiber.  That basically suggests replacing the UltraRendu with an OpticalRendu OR...... does it suggest trying to build my own NAA but with a fiber input and USB output?  

[bipet]

I had a look around for raspberry pi 4's to acc as my NAA to replace the one I managed to destroy yesterday and there are not many available in the uk. So I am looking again at alternatives. Is an atom based device preferable to my current i7 fanless NUC? (I am assuming yes, its an 19v i7 7BNB (i7-7567u)  with 8gb ram in HD Plex metal case).

 

I am trying to find a fanless, aluminium mini pc with the following specs.

• z8350 or e3950 cpu - should I look for anything else? How about celeron or i3?
• 4gb ddr3 - do I need 4gb or would 2gb do?
• Anything else?

[Zauurx]

@Miska : Do you think that the UP-stream (Atom UP-GWS01-A20-) with a NAA image (and quality power supply) is superior to the Zen Stream?
I have high hopes for the JCAT project even though the price will be higher (switch + NAA endpoint).

[bogi]

1 hour ago, rossco said:

• z8350 or e3950 cpu - should I look for anything else? How about celeron or i3?
• 4gb ddr3 - do I need 4gb or would 2gb do?

 

I'm occasionally using a Z8350 based one and performance wise it is more than sufficient for NAA purposes. More powerful CPUs  consume more power and that can lead to more noise produced, negating the purpose of NAA. i3 looks to me as an overkill.  2 GB are also OK, no need for 4GB. I can run both Debian and Win10 on Z8350 with 2GB RAM, both working without issues. Although the Debian one I only tried years ago while the Windows one I updated maybe 2 times since that time (dual boot).

[sledwards]

On 7/19/2021 at 1:16 PM, Miska said:

You can disable HQPlayer side by logging in as "root" and running "systemctl disable hqplayerd ; systemctl stop hqplayerd". That will disable it from bootup sequence and stop the already running instance. This way only NAA functionality is left running.

I just set up my NAA so I can log into it using ssh. I issue the two systemctl commands and hqplayerd goes away. However, when I reboot, hqplayerd starts up again. Is this expected behavior with Embedded OS? I thought it was supposed to remember at boot not to start hqplayerd?

[The Computer Audiophile]

13 hours ago, sdolezalek said:

This is slightly off-topic, but one consideratiuon I had really overlooked in choice of NAA was using fiber rather than Ethernet as an input.  I am currently using an UltraRendu (which limits me to Ethernet), but I recently did a comparison between running Cat6UTP to my CISCO 2960 Catalyst switch and running multimode fiber to the same switch and then just two feet of Ethernet to the UltraRendu.  The difference was astounding in favor of the fiber.  That basically suggests replacing the UltraRendu with an OpticalRendu OR...... does it suggest trying to build my own NAA but with a fiber input and USB output?  

I use a signature Rendu SE Optical, but another options I've considered is a Fitlet2 (or 3 when it's released). you can add fiber capability directly to it - https://fit-iot.com/web/products/fitlet2/

[mfsoa]

I think I am seeing two schools of thought here for NAA, or even for Roon-

 

1) Use a PC/Fitlet which can give you ultimately the highest sampling rates but what about the audiophile "Ewwww, a bog-standard PC sending bits to my beautiful DAC" thinking?

 

or

 

2) Use a small device dedicated to the purpose - might not have the latest software or PC abilities, but is supposedly has optimized, low-noise USB output -  Rendu/Stack Link etc.

 

What are your thoughts on pros vs. cons of these approaches?  I can see hardcore programmer types leaning PC but more turn-key types leaning Rendu or Stack Link.

 

Which way to go....

 

 

[Barnabas]

4 minutes ago, mfsoa said:

I think I am seeing two schools of thought here for NAA, or even for Roon-

 

1) Use a PC/Fitlet which can give you ultimately the highest sampling rates but what about the audiophile "Ewwww, a bog-standard PC sending bits to my beautiful DAC" thinking?

 

or

 

2) Use a small device dedicated to the purpose - might not have the latest software or PC abilities, but is supposedly has optimized, low-noise USB output -  Rendu/Stack Link etc.

 

What are your thoughts on pros vs. cons of these approaches?  I can see hardcore programmer types leaning PC but more turn-key types leaning Rendu or Stack Link.

 

Which way to go....

 

 

I’m definitely more the “turn key type” but have also realised the benefit of computing power. The setup that works well for me is Roon core on windows laptop>intel NUC running HQPlayer OS>Magna Mano Ultra streamer (RPi2, Hifiberry hat & GD Audio I2S output module) running RoPieeeXL - using the NAA>Pontus DAC straight into the I2S input. Sounds great!

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 hour ago, mfsoa said:

I think I am seeing two schools of thought here for NAA, or even for Roon-

 

1) Use a PC/Fitlet which can give you ultimately the highest sampling rates but what about the audiophile "Ewwww, a bog-standard PC sending bits to my beautiful DAC" thinking?

 

or

 

2) Use a small device dedicated to the purpose - might not have the latest software or PC abilities, but is supposedly has optimized, low-noise USB output -  Rendu/Stack Link etc.

 

What are your thoughts on pros vs. cons of these approaches?  I can see hardcore programmer types leaning PC but more turn-key types leaning Rendu or Stack Link.

 

Which way to go....

 

 

I use both and totally understand the situation.

 

Many people have had issues sending huge data rates such as PCM at 24/1.536 MHz to devices such as a Rendu. I was able to send to my Signature Rendu SE Optical audio at 20/1.536, but I know many who can't. I'm not sure what I did to make it work, but such is life.

 

If you want to guarantee no packet loss with super high data rates, then something like a fitlet2 or fitlet3 is the way to go. 

 

When using something like DSD256, I'd go Rendu all day every day. Support from Sonore is also top notch, if a problem arises. 

[davide256]

On 1/10/2022 at 11:55 AM, davide256 said:

While HQP isn't my main preference for player it is pretty good. Since I had never tried using an NAA before, I got @Mischa 's advice  to purchase an UP processor

 

https://up-shop.org/up-gateway-atom-x5-z8350-w-4g-memory-32g-emmc-board-w-vesa-plate.html

 

What I've found is that the USB output from the UP device as NAA is very little different than the  USB output from  HQPe server. A beefy power supply helps stability

in complex passages but having an expensive LPS isn't required... the UP as NAA is well behaved and never "cries out" for more computer resource.

 

Stylus, which I prefer, is not kind to endpoints... the USB endpoint does all the audio processing and the UP device with less than an excellent power supply has audible

irritants/harmonic  grunge. Have ordered an i3NUC to meet Stylus resource needs, will advise if I see any improvement vs the UP gateway booting same NAA image

The 11TNHi3 NUC arrived yesterday. Transients are far superior to the UP Atom gateway. As usual with NUC's, the Turbo boost/speed step option made the treble irritatingly

aggressive so disabled that. More fine tuning to be done but will not be going back to the UP device

[FooFighter]

Basic question.

I've just got a Mac Mini M1 16GB and have installed Roon Core and HQPlayer on it.

Doing upsampling to 1,5Mhz, 20 bits, Sinc-L filter to my Holo Audio Spring 3 KTE  and am running both a Roon Endpoint and the NAA service on my MacBook Pro i5 to test the performance.

Glad to see that the M1 is capable enough to run both Roon Core and HQPlayer with the mentioned sample rates.

However I recognize that the Macbook Pro as NAA is injecting noise whenever I am accessing the network, opening other programs etc.

Once I just let it alone running as NAA only it's silent though.

I wanted to order either the UP Gateway or FITLET2 but I will be able to only use it for HQPlayer and not as a Roon Endpoint booting Miska's image, right?

So in order to switch to Roon I'd need to plug out the USB cable and stick it e.g into my IPad as a Roon Endpoint or are there any other suggestions besides running a full blown Intel NUC?

No way to install a Roon Client into Miska's image, right?

[ericuco]

27 minutes ago, FooFighter said:

 

I wanted to order either the UP Gateway or FITLET2 but I will be able to only use it for HQPlayer and not as a Roon Endpoint booting Miska's image, right?

Couldn’t you get fitlet2 with Linux Mint already installed then load NAA and Roon Bridge so the fitlet2 can be used for either?

[The Computer Audiophile]

4 minutes ago, ericuco said:

Couldn’t you get fitlet2 with Linux Mint already installed then load NAA and Roon Bridge so the fitlet2 can be used for either?

Just don’t load NAA and Roon Bridge at the same time. I’m guilty of this and it causes nothing but problems with control over the audio device. 

[FooFighter]

The Fitlet option with pre-installed Linux sounds interesting.

Cannot judge the mentioned audio issues.

On my MacBook Pro switching the inputs via Roon is seemingless but unfortunately that machine is noisy, good proof for the before discussed principle of running a purist setup with only necessary software running.

I guess I d need to get a pure NAA then and slip the Roon endpoint option (or use my MacBook Pro just in case I want Roon later).

What I still don't get is why such noises only appear with HQPlayer, high sample rates and no noise on same setup with fully upsampled Roon (going only up to 768khz PCM).

[Mike Rubin]

My rendu is out of service for the moment, so I want to make do for a short while with a spare Raspberry Pi 4 that I have.  I can run Ropieee XL or NAA OS.  Other than that Ropieee XL will allow me to switch to other interfaces, is there a good reason to run one rather than the other?  

[stefano_mbp]

32 minutes ago, Mike Rubin said:

My rendu is out of service for the moment, so I want to make do for a short while with a spare Raspberry Pi 4 that I have.  I can run Ropieee XL or NAA OS.  Other than that Ropieee XL will allow me to switch to other interfaces, is there a good reason to run one rather than the other?  

Hi Mike, I’m running RoPieee XL/NAA and tried NAA image … I couldn’t find any difference at all.

BTW I read in your signature you are using a Nuc10i7 to run HQPe, could you please describe which filters/modulators are you able to use and which DSD upsampling rate you can reach? … I’m very interested in the Nuc10i7 solution, thanks.

[FooFighter]

Up gateway ordered today.

Am fed up with Macbook NAA.

Noise plus losing connecting once monitor signal isn't going to Mac.

Will hope that M1 server plus Up Gateway will run reliably without posing connections and without distortions 

[Foggie]

On 1/11/2022 at 8:09 PM, The Computer Audiophile said:

I was able to send to my Signature Rendu SE Optical audio at 20/1.536, but I know many who can't. I'm not sure what I did to make it work, but such is life.

I was as well (with an OR) but it's been a bit sporadic for me, meaning, one day it worked without issue and now I can't seem to get it to go without the weird noises that many others report at that rate (1.536).  Could be many things, and maybe specific HQP settings, but wish I could recall the recipe for that high rate pcm, for no other reason then just to test/try out more reliably.

[MrDerrick]

1 hour ago, Foggie said:

I was as well (with an OR) but it's been a bit sporadic for me, meaning, one day it worked without issue and now I can't seem to get it to go without the weird noises that many others report at that rate (1.536).  Could be many things, and maybe specific HQP settings, but wish I could recall the recipe for that high rate pcm, for no other reason then just to test/try out more reliably.

Did you try restarting your NAA?

Sometimes when I change settings in HQPlayer it sounds like something has lost its "lock".

Restarting NAA cures the problem.

[Mike Rubin]

8 hours ago, stefano_mbp said:

Hi Mike, I’m running RoPieee XL/NAA and tried NAA image … I couldn’t find any difference at all.

BTW I read in your signature you are using a Nuc10i7 to run HQPe, could you please describe which filters/modulators are you able to use and which DSD upsampling rate you can reach? … I’m very interested in the Nuc10i7 solution, thanks.

Hi, Stefano.  I have been using ASDM5ECV2 and gauss long, with everything upsampled to DSD256.  With the latest HQPe OS as the exclusive software on the NUC, I found I finally could run the same filter and upsampling using ASDM7ECV2 but, when I did so, I didn't like the results as much as with ASDM5ECv2.

 

I love mine because it fits into an unused space behind my monitor, frees up my desktop for other things, and cost me almost nothing with credit card points, but the NUC may not be the ideal solution for pushing HQPlayer to the limits. I have been too lazy to set up a user account that would allow me to ssh to check temps, but, when I was running HQPlayer Desktop on the same NUC under Windows 10, I was pegging 100c way too often.  I have stopped worrying about that and will just keep using it until it burns out.  As far as I know, there only are two aftermarket cases available for this model NUC, but only one (the HXPlex) might do more than eliminate the occasional fan noise the NUC produces. Unfortunately, that case appears to require more constructor skill than I suspect I have, so I won't be trying it.

 

With laptop memory on sale this week, I just ordered $40 worth of fast RAM to replace my current 8gb with 16gb.  I doubt this will give me much additional headroom, but it is a cheap experiment.

[Mike Rubin]

1 hour ago, MrDerrick said:

Did you try restarting your NAA?

Sometimes when I change settings in HQPlayer it sounds like something has lost its "lock".

Restarting NAA cures the problem.

With my rendus, this as often as not solves the problem for me, as well.  If it does not, rebooting HQPe itself almost always does the trick. Worst case requires restarting switch, DAC, and rendu.

[sledwards]

On 1/11/2022 at 2:28 PM, sledwards said:

I just set up my NAA so I can log into it using ssh. I issue the two systemctl commands and hqplayerd goes away. However, when I reboot, hqplayerd starts up again. Is this expected behavior with Embedded OS? I thought it was supposed to remember at boot not to start hqplayerd?

Disregard, solved.

[Quokka_61]

After ample consideration and a lot of reading, I took the plunge the other day and ordered a Fitlet2 for a NAA with a FC-OPLN 1x SFP+ Gbit Ethernet optical FACET card. I already have a QNAP QSW-M408-4C managed switch, which (besides twelve 1GbE RJ45 ports) features four 10GbE SFP+/RJ45 ‘combo ports’. The latter can either be used as an optical port or as an ethernet port. With the aim to reduce noise (as per recommendation of @jabbr) I am intended to connect the Fitlet2 with my switch over single mode optical fiber. My question now is basically the same as my previous one in this thread, what difference in sound quality might one expect between the following two approaches:

 

 

 

Would the introduction of a FMC in between the Mac Mini M1 and the switch (resulting in the communication between the music server and the switch partly running over fiber too), lead to a further reduction of noise when compared to Approach I, or would it be pointless to do so?

[Miska]

2 hours ago, Quokka_61 said:

 

 

Would the introduction of a FMC in between the Mac Mini M1 and the switch (resulting in the communication between the music server and the switch partly running over fiber too), lead to a further reduction of noise when compared to Approach I, or would it be pointless to do so?

 

Approach 1 is closer to the recommended one, if you change picture such way that also NAS is connected to the QNAP switch instead of Mac Mini.

 

Approach 2 doesn't have any advantages, just unnecessary extra hardware.

 

Switches are intended to be star points where you have all the devices connected, allowing each to communicate with each other.