Hqplayer: best NAA with best sound quality

[Barnabas]

Now that I have HQPlayerd running on my NUC, can I replace RoPieeeXL with a sIgnalyst NAA image for my Pi2 based streamer. That way I’ll have all sIgnalyst software for the Player and Roon as an interface to manage my music.

[stefano_mbp]

5 hours ago, Barnabas said:

can I replace RoPieeeXL with a sIgnalyst NAA image for my Pi2 based streamer.

As you like, anyway with RoPieee XL you are running Signalyst NAA 4.1.1 

[FooFighter]

Hey chaps 

Short introduction of myself.

I am registered with the same nickname also on Headfi and after some discourse starting with DAPs like DX220 Max up to Shanling M30 finally arriving at some desktop stack having some Spring 3 KTE on order going into a Ferrum OOR / Hypsos PSU stack.

Am listening with Susvaras and PHI TCs.

 

As I wanted to make use of my new Spring 3 KTE I am looking forward running HQPlayer, starting on my old 2018 Macbook Pro i5 and was targeting the usually recommended upsampling to 1,5Mhz.

As I now learnt MacOS won't let me upsample to that high value.

 

Therefore my noob questions 

1. Am I right assuming that some supported NAA will allow me to work around the MacOS limitations and sample up to 24bit / 1,5Mhz?

 

2. I ve read in another post that such a MeleUSB Intel Celeron stick is both supported by HQPlayer and as well recommended for playback towards Holo Audio DACs with Titanis USB modules 

 

3. Can you please point me to the right image?

That's still the right download link?

http://www.signalyst.eu/bins/naa/images/

Which one is the right one for that stick here?

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08V8VJF6L/

Thx for your feedback!

[Miska]

3 hours ago, FooFighter said:

1. Am I right assuming that some supported NAA will allow me to work around the MacOS limitations and sample up to 24bit / 1,5Mhz?

 

Yes, although you'd likely want to use 20-bit with suitable noise-shaper.

 

3 hours ago, FooFighter said:

2. I ve read in another post that such a MeleUSB Intel Celeron stick is both supported by HQPlayer and as well recommended for playback towards Holo Audio DACs with Titanis USB modules 

 

I don't know about such, but UP Gateway is what I use. fitlet2 is another option. I have both, and both can be powered by Ferrum Hypsos. I'm using UP Gateway powered with the Hypsos.

 

3 hours ago, FooFighter said:

3. Can you please point me to the right image?

That's still the right download link?

http://www.signalyst.eu/bins/naa/images/

 

Latest version of x64 image is the right one. Currently version 4.1.2.3.

 

[FooFighter]

8 hours ago, Miska said:

 

Yes, although you'd likely want to use 20-bit with suitable noise-shaper.

 

 

I don't know about such, but UP Gateway is what I use. fitlet2 is another option. I have both, and both can be powered by Ferrum Hypsos. I'm using UP Gateway powered with the Hypsos.

 

 

Latest version of x64 image is the right one. Currently version 4.1.2.3.

 

Thx for your quick response.

Though I appreciate the audible results of Hypsos on digital to analogue devices like my Ferrum OOR I am questioning the investment of 1k bucks for the PSU alone for a NAA especially with a completely isolated USB interface like Holo Audio Titanis.

How big is the difference for Holo Audio May or Spring 3 KTE USB connections using UP NAA with Hypsos vs without?

 

Also thank you for pointing me to the right image - before thought the numbers in the filenames might be related to X64 CPU revisions 😉

[FooFighter]

Is that the right UP gateway?

https://up-shop.org/up-gateway-atom-x5-z8350-w-4g-memory-32g-emmc-board-w-vesa-plate.html

Does it use a standard 5V round plug?

Anyone tried a more affordable PSU such as Ifi Ipower Elite?

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08S622SM7

[Miska]

8 hours ago, FooFighter said:

Is that the right UP gateway?

https://up-shop.org/up-gateway-atom-x5-z8350-w-4g-memory-32g-emmc-board-w-vesa-plate.html

 

Yes, that's the one.

 

8 hours ago, FooFighter said:

Does it use a standard 5V round plug?

 

Yes it does... Same that is used by various other devices, like the SolidRun etc.

 

8 hours ago, FooFighter said:

Anyone tried a more affordable PSU such as Ifi Ipower Elite?

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08S622SM7

 

I've been also running it off medical grade SMPS supplies. But recently switched to Ferrum Hypsos for the same purpose.

 

[Miska]

15 hours ago, FooFighter said:

How big is the difference for Holo Audio May or Spring 3 KTE USB connections using UP NAA with Hypsos vs without?

 

Not much, I don't have issues using the medical PSUs either.

 

But technically, I'd say Hypsos makes more difference with my NAA than it does with the Oor. Maybe I get another Hypsos at some point for the Oor. But now I've been happy this way.

 

[FooFighter]

14 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

Not much, I don't have issues using the medical PSUs either.

 

But technically, I'd say Hypsos makes more difference with my NAA than it does with the Oor. Maybe I get another Hypsos at some point for the Oor. But now I've been happy this way.

 

Hmmm, that makes me think as Hypsos for OOR is considered to make quite a difference.

I think I will go for the Hypsos as a starting point as I cannot justify the price-relation of the PSU vs NAA otherwise...

[FooFighter]

Just now, FooFighter said:

Hmmm, that makes me think as Hypsos for OOR is considered to make quite a difference.

I think I will go for the Hypsos as a starting point as I cannot justify the price-relation of the PSU vs NAA otherwise...

Sorry I meant I will go for the Ifi PSU as a starting point 😉

[Miska]

21 minutes ago, FooFighter said:

Sorry I meant I will go for the Ifi PSU as a starting point 😉

 

Just make sure it can supply enough peak current. My medical grade PSUs are 5V 6A. I would stay away anything below 3A.

 

[Zauurx]

17 hours ago, FooFighter said:

Is that the right UP gateway?

https://up-shop.org/up-gateway-atom-x5-z8350-w-4g-memory-32g-emmc-board-w-vesa-plate.html

Does it use a standard 5V round plug?

....

Very interessant technical documentation (EMI, etc) about UP (tested in 2016).
I don't see this type of documentation for " mainstream " audio products
https://up-shop.org/up-gateway-atom-x5-z8350-w-4g-memory-32g-emmc-board-w-vesa-plate.html#additional

 

[Quokka_61]

After having enjoyed HQPlayer in a direct computer to DAC setup for a little over a year, I am becoming curious about what a NAA might add in terms of audible sound quality. Before deciding to pull another 15 m or so of ethernet cables through the house, I have got the following question – which obviously exposes me as a noob to the concept, so please bear with me 😉

 

What difference in sound quality might one expect between the following two approaches (if the first of these works at all):

 

NAS > ethernet > switch > ethernet > Mac Mini M1 + HQP Desktop > USB > NAA + HQP NAA software > USB > DAC > balanced XLR > monobloc NCore NC250MP power amps > loudspeakers

 

or:

 

NAS > ethernet > switch > ethernet > Mac Mini M1 + HQP Desktop > ethernet > switch > ethernet > NAA + HQP NAA software > USB > DAC > balanced XLR > monobloc NCore NC250MP power amps > loudspeakers

 

As to the first option, the USB cable between the Mac Mini and the NAA would be a short one (1 m). With respect to mechanical noise, I have never heard the fan of the Mac MiniM1 running once, even not during the summer when ambient temperatures are higher. But what about the effect of electrical noise generated by the Mac Mini on the NAA, when these two appliances are put in such close proximity to each other?

 

With respect to the NAA itself, I’m considering an UP Gateway Atom x5-Z8350 4G memory, as per Miska’s recommendation, or a fitlet2RC Atom x7-E3950. The latter is customisable, which it seems the UP isn’t, but (given my setup) whether either of these would result in better sound quality than the other is not yet clear to me.

 

Any thoughts or experiences are much welcomed!

 

Simon

[FooFighter]

+1 and consider me even more noob as I didn't even know that you can connect an NAA via USB up to now 🙄

[brother love]

@Quokka_61,  your 1st option won't work & the 2nd option will...  The server (M1 in your case) is sending HQP upsampled music via ethernet to your mini pc NAA (Network Audio Adapter). The mini pc w/ an HQ image from here: https://www.signalyst.eu/bins/naa/? receives the HQP upsampled music via ethernet & sends  via USB to your DAC.

 

Try the M1 close to the NAA first, then move farther away second to see if you hear a difference sonically w/ the M1 power supply on different electrical circuit than DAC & reduced EMI/ RFI.  Some hear distinct improvements, others not as much (when I had  a i5 Mac Mini/ NAA, it was minimal; but is more noticeable w/ a i7 big box pc server/ NAA).

[Quokka_61]

@FooFighter In theory, yes, as both the UP Gateway and the fitlet2RC which I consider as a NAA, have a couple of USB ports that could be coupled with the computer running HQPlayer Desktop. What remains to be seen though is whether the HQP NAA software module (or HQP embedded) that is to be installed on the NAA supports an incoming signal path over USB.

[FooFighter]

1 hour ago, Quokka_61 said:

@FooFighter In theory, yes, as both the UP Gateway and the fitlet2RC which I consider as a NAA, have a couple of USB ports that could be coupled with the computer running HQPlayer Desktop. What remains to be seen though is whether the HQP NAA software module (or HQP embedded) that is to be installed on the NAA supports an incoming signal path over USB.

As we just read that option seems to be not supported whereas I had asked myself a similar question before why not using a bus system like USB.

Am no specialist here if the protocols used for the Ethernet connection cannot be used over a USB connection 

Seems to be a tad crazy having the server and streamer sitting a few centimeters away from each other and needing to feed the stream by an additional Ethernet connection involving additional Ethernet hub which by itself must then be isolated / optimized using according PSU etc.

[Miska]

2 hours ago, Quokka_61 said:

NAS > ethernet > switch > ethernet > Mac Mini M1 + HQP Desktop > ethernet > switch > ethernet > NAA + HQP NAA software > USB > DAC > balanced XLR > monobloc NCore NC250MP power amps > loudspeakers

 

As to the first option, the USB cable between the Mac Mini and the NAA would be a short one (1 m). With respect to mechanical noise, I have never heard the fan of the Mac MiniM1 running once, even not during the summer when ambient temperatures are higher. But what about the effect of electrical noise generated by the Mac Mini on the NAA, when these two appliances are put in such close proximity to each other?

 

You need just one switch, and connect everything to it.

 

The way I have things setup, which is the recommended way and standard network setup:

• There's a central switch in machine room, with cable from each room coming to the switch
• Also router/firewall is in machine room, connected to the central switch
• Each room has a room specific switch, connected through the wall socket to the central switch
• Every networked device in the room is connected to the room switch
• There are two WiFi6 wireless access points, powered through PoE from the central switch, providing wireless service across the house

Based on your description, you would have HQPlayer server near the NAA. So you could do with just one switch located in room, and everything connected to it.

 

[Miska]

2 minutes ago, FooFighter said:

Am no specialist here if the protocols used for the Ethernet connection cannot be used over a USB connection 

Seems to be a tad crazy having the server and streamer sitting a few centimeters away from each other and needing to feed the stream by an additional Ethernet connection involving additional Ethernet hub which by itself must then be isolated / optimized using according PSU etc.

 

Ethernet is not like USB. It is not for direct device connections. It is for network connections, with multiple devices participating in the network.

 

So your Mac would have just one ethernet connection it likely already has for connecting to internet. NAA would connect to your regular home network and could be located anywhere in the house (within reach of the network), just like the HQPlayer server.

 

As long as you use standard switches and unshielded CAT6 U/UTP cables you are fine and you have isolation. No extra things needed.

 

[jabbr]

7 hours ago, Quokka_61 said:

Any thoughts or experiences are much welcomed!

I like to do things as simple as possible. You don't need an NAA, you can output directly from your HQPlayer server to a DAC via USB.

 

The reason I love NAA is because it is super low power and silent and sits in my audio listening areas. My servers are located in the basement and connected via Ethernet. The high power noisy stuff is isolated from the low power audio area by the Ethernet network (in my case fiberoptic).

 

Some people think that adding multiple switches, cables, clocks and other widgets can *add* to sound quality, then can't. The network should be silent. Mine is. Extra devices can't make silent more silent.

[Quokka_61]

@FooFighter, @brother love, @Miska and @jabbr: thank you very much for replying to my question.

 

From your answers it becomes clear that connecting a HQPlayer server to a NAA by USB never was an option, and that the only way to go is via ethernet. This is not a problem since, like Miska, I do have a switch in a technical room, which is behind a router/firewall and a VPN router. From there, unshielded cat 6a cables lead to double wall sockets in four rooms, among which the living room. In the latter, I currently have one double ethernet socket, but place for a second one. The current double socket is occupied by a radio / television tuner, and the other by the Mac Mini that acts as HQPlayer server. The Mac Mini though, is connected to one of the four 2.5 GbE ports of my switch, as are my NAS (which not only harbours my music library, but also my photo library) and my iMac. The reason for this choice is that processing 50-65 Mb photo files in Adobe Lightroom over a 1 GbE connection has proven to be slow as molasses. Following Miska’s approach, I could indeed connect the Mac Mini and a NAA to a second (fanless) switch, but since I want the Mac Mini, iMac NAS to be able to communicate over a 2.5 GbE connection, this additional switch would need to feature at least one 2.5 GbE port. For the time being, this seems a bit of a waste, and that’s why I currently lean to pulling another set of ethernet cables to the as yet unoccupied second wall socket in the living room. One of the ports of the latter would then be connected to the last free 2.5 GbE port of the central switch in the technical room. However, the principle is the same, and this layout would allow me to introduce an NAA in between my HQPlayer server and my RME ADI-2 DAC.

 

With respect to the prospective NAAs I mentioned, is there any reason why I should favour the UP Gateway Atom x5-Z8350 over the fitlet2RC Atom x7-E3950, or vice versa? The former is a bit cheaper, consumes less power but seems to be on back-order, whereas the latter is probably a bit faster and – seemingly- available for order.

 

2 hours ago, jabbr said:

I like to do things as simple as possible. You don't need an NAA, you can output directly from your HQPlayer server to a DAC via USB.

 

@jabbr: this is what I am doing currently. What I thought to understand from discussions at this forum and at audio “science” review is that introducing a NAA could help to not let the input of the DAC directly be influenced by electrical noise generated by the HQPlayer server. Your approach seems to be more practical, and aimed at isolating mechanically noisy equipment from your listening room, but I may be misinterpreting what you write?  

[Quokka_61]

I have no idea where the apostrophes around the word science in my last alinea come from, and somehow I can't get rid of them either. Anyways, this is certainly not meant as some sort of pun, as I find the forum I am referring to to also be very informative. 

[ted_b]

9 minutes ago, Quokka_61 said:

With respect to the prospective NAAs I mentioned, is there any reason why I should favour the UP Gateway Atom x5-Z8350 over the fitlet2RC Atom x7-E3950, or vice versa?

I have no feedback on the UP Gateway, but when I took @jabbradvice and bought a Mikrotek switch and Fitlet2 optical (after having several NAAs in my HQPlayer life) I have never heard such a stunningly black background to my soundstage.  The total investment (switch, a couple SFPs, Fitlet2, some fiber) was peanuts, under $500 (considered peanuts when it added so much and cost, relatively, so little).

 

Also, for NAAs in general, they also give you a choice of OS's and subsequent dac drivers.  I chose Audiolinux and the Intel-based Fitlet2 to be able to do 32fs PCM.

[jabbr]

2 hours ago, Quokka_61 said:

 

@jabbr: this is what I am doing currently. What I thought to understand from discussions at this forum and at audio “science” review is that introducing a NAA could help to not let the input of the DAC directly be influenced by electrical noise generated by the HQPlayer server. Your approach seems to be more practical, and aimed at isolating mechanically noisy equipment from your listening room, but I may be misinterpreting what you write?  

 

There have been permathreads on USB isolation between the server and the DAC. 

 

HQPlayer -> NAA over Ethernet allows for the far better Ethernet isolation particularly when using fiberopic Ethernet which is cheap and reliable. The fitlet2 allows direct SFP fiberoptic Ethernet with the add-in card.

[dericchan1]

17 hours ago, brother love said:

@Quokka_61,  your 1st option won't work & the 2nd option will...  The server (M1 in your case) is sending HQP upsampled music via ethernet to your mini pc NAA (Network Audio Adapter). The mini pc w/ an HQ image from here: https://www.signalyst.eu/bins/naa/? receives the HQP upsampled music via ethernet & sends  via USB to your DAC.

 

Try the M1 close to the NAA first, then move farther away second to see if you hear a difference sonically w/ the M1 power supply on different electrical circuit than DAC & reduced EMI/ RFI.  Some hear distinct improvements, others not as much (when I had  a i5 Mac Mini/ NAA, it was minimal; but is more noticeable w/ a i7 big box pc server/ NAA).

Care to please elaborate why there would be improvement connecting the dac and the server in different circuit? I currently have my server pc and the naa (raspberry pi4) plugged in to the same furman power conditioner. Thanks

 

Deric