Hqplayer: best NAA with best sound quality

[Mike Rubin]

1 hour ago, Andrey Boldakov said:

Yes, just that! At the HQPlayer website there is a special NAA image for a Rendu endpoint

Thank you for letting me know this. I always haven’t used the NAA that’s in the Sonicorbiter OS.  
 

Does each image update result in a new MAC address as is the case with the HQPlayer Embedded OS?

[Andrey Boldakov]

2 hours ago, Mike Rubin said:

 

Does each image update result in a new MAC address

Sorry, I know nothing about it, as in my home lan nothing depends on MAC

[Miska]

5 hours ago, Mike Rubin said:

Thank you for letting me know this. I always haven’t used the NAA that’s in the Sonicorbiter OS.  
 

Does each image update result in a new MAC address as is the case with the HQPlayer Embedded OS?

 

NAA OS doesn't as it doesn't use the network bridge setup.

 

Neither does HQPlayer OS on RPi4 because that doesn't use it either (since RPi4 has only one ethernet port).

 

[Mike Rubin]

5 hours ago, Miska said:

 

NAA OS doesn't as it doesn't use the network bridge setup.

 

Neither does HQPlayer OS on RPi4 because that doesn't use it either (since RPi4 has only one ethernet port).

 

Didn't realize that there is no network capability.  I just learned that by playing with the NAA OS just now, before reading your post. 

 

What is the use case, then? To my knowledge, rendus all work only over a network connection. 

[Miska]

2 hours ago, Mike Rubin said:

Didn't realize that there is no network capability.  I just learned that by playing with the NAA OS just now, before reading your post. 

 

What is the use case, then? To my knowledge, rendus all work only over a network connection. 

 

I don't understand your question. Of course there is network capability. The network is just configured in a different way.

 

HQPlayer OS on x64 uses bridge interface. While HQPlayer OS on RPi4 doesn't. NAA OS doesn't use bridge interface either.

 

MAC address change happens because the bridge interface is pure software interface that picks up a semi-random MAC address.

 

[Mike Rubin]

7 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

I don't understand your question. Of course there is network capability. The network is just configured in a different way.

 

HQPlayer OS on x64 uses bridge interface. While HQPlayer OS on RPi4 doesn't. NAA OS doesn't use bridge interface either.

 

MAC address change happens because the bridge interface is pure software interface that picks up a semi-random MAC address.

 

I am lost, then. Does the NAA OS work on all rendu models? 

 

I tried using the NAA OS on my optically-connected rendu. I burned the OS image to a compatible SD card, installed it, booted the rendu, and...   nothing.  I rebooted several times, but at no time did the rendu rejoin my network.  Its LED never went from red to green, I couldn't find it on the network using Fing and HQPlayer Embedded OS never saw it as an end point on the configuration screen. 

 

I reinstalled the original SonicOrbiter SD card and the rendu immediately found the network again. 

 

If I try again and can get the NAA OS to boot this device, is there an interface comparable to hqplayer.local:8080 that would allow me to restart NAA OS or would I have to use the rendu's power switch to recycle power? 

 

 

 

 

[Miska]

52 minutes ago, Mike Rubin said:

I am lost, then. Does the NAA OS work on all rendu models? 

 

At least on microRendu, and I think on ultraRendu too. I don't have anything else than microRendu myself.

 

52 minutes ago, Mike Rubin said:

I tried using the NAA OS on my optically-connected rendu. I burned the OS image to a compatible SD card, installed it, booted the rendu, and...   nothing.  I rebooted several times, but at no time did the rendu rejoin my network.

 

You have opticalRendu? Maybe it doesn't work on such.

 

52 minutes ago, Mike Rubin said:

Its LED never went from red to green

 

It won't control any LEDs at all, so you can safely ignore such.

 

52 minutes ago, Mike Rubin said:

I couldn't find it on the network using Fing and HQPlayer Embedded OS never saw it as an end point on the configuration screen. 

 

Maybe it doesn't work on your device then.

 

52 minutes ago, Mike Rubin said:

If I try again and can get the NAA OS to boot this device, is there an interface comparable to hqplayer.local:8080 that would allow me to restart NAA OS or would I have to use the rendu's power switch to recycle power? 

 

There's no web server on NAA OS, on purpose. It runs only NAA module and nothing else, it either works or it doesn't.

 

The microRendu I have doesn't have a power switch, I just unplug and replug the power to reboot it.

 

[Mike Rubin]

50 minutes ago, Miska said:

The microRendu I have doesn't have a power switch, I just unplug and replug the power to reboot it.

 

I was testing with the optical version of the rendu, but I also have an ultra. I can try with that device. 

 

The Signature optical rendu is the only one with a power switch. The other ones reboot only with the power cord if you aren't using SonicOrbiter. (The SonicOrbiter software includes reboot and power off capability like HQPE OS does.) 

 

If it works on the ultraRendu and not on the Signature, the OS may not work with an optical connection. The Signature uses the same circuit board as the ultra. 

[Miska]

3 minutes ago, Mike Rubin said:

(The SonicOrbiter software includes reboot and power off capability like HQPE OS does.) 

 

I never bother to use the web interface for that on my HQPlayer Embedded machines. It is much easier with short press of a power button. (although most of those are just running 24/7/365)

 

[Superdad]

1 hour ago, Mike Rubin said:

Does the NAA OS work on all rendu models? 

 

It absolutely will not on opticalRedus! 

See here:

And even for the ultraRendu and microRendu, Miska's OS image will not turn on a key hardware performance feature of the Rendu series. I know what that is but am being vague because Sonore prefers I do not reveal the feature.

[Mike Rubin]

6 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

It absolutely will not on opticalRedus! 

See here:

And even for the ultraRendu and microRendu, Miska's OS image will not turn on a key hardware performance feature of the Rendu series. I know what that is but am being vague because Sonore prefers I do not reveal the feature.

Thanks for the link, Alex.  Interesting info from Sonore in Jesus' post. 

[Miska]

18 minutes ago, Superdad said:

And even for the ultraRendu and microRendu, Miska's OS image will not turn on a key hardware performance feature of the Rendu series. I know what that is but am being vague because Sonore prefers I do not reveal the feature.

 

If it has anything to do with Linux kernel, they need to publish the source code due to GPL requirements... 😉

 

And yes, NAA OS doesn't have web interface, package manager or any other extra bloat, on purpose. It is plain firmware, you write it to SDcard, insert it boot it up and it is ready to go. To update it, you write a new image version to the card. If something goes wrong, you can always write another card. Every release includes the entire OS and software as one image.

 

But I'm using the Holo Red instead, they don't have an issue with me providing HQPlayer specific OS images for their hardware. Or anybody else doing something similar. You can even run HQPlayer OS there.

 

 

P.S. Your car's ABS brakes control unit doesn't have a web interface either.

 

[Superdad]

30 minutes ago, Miska said:

If it has anything to do with Linux kernel, they need to publish the source code due to GPL requirements...

Nope, it is related to a key hardware feature of the baseboard's interface with the SolidRun iMx-6 module.

Having heard the feature turned on and off (when originally tested; with the same unit and same OS) with less than a minute gap, I can assure that it is relevant and quite audible. So those using your cubox-i-rendu image for their ultraRendu are definitely missing out on that feature (the original microRendu does not contain the hardware component to make that feature turn-on worthwhile). 

[Miska]

27 minutes ago, Superdad said:

Nope, it is related to a key hardware feature of the baseboard's interface with the SolidRun iMx-6 module.

 

So it is touching device tree which is under GPL license just like anything that interfaces between kernel and hardware.

 

27 minutes ago, Superdad said:

Having heard the feature turned on and off (when originally tested; with the same unit and same OS) with less than a minute gap, I can assure that it is relevant and quite audible. So those using your cubox-i-rendu image for their ultraRendu are definitely missing out on that feature (the original microRendu does not contain the hardware component to make that feature turn-on worthwhile). 

 

Good that I don't hear it. 😅 Which DAC? Any measurement data from DAC outputs demonstrating this?

But I can hear the difference of having some piece of DAC hardware supported or not.

 

Although I don't really use Rendu that much these days. It just sits in box most of the time. My actively used NAA's are UP Gateway, Fitlet2, OnLogic CL100 and Holo Red.

 

Plus my living room i5-7600T based passive cooled server that runs HQPlayer Embedded + NAA. HQPlayer there is feeding Accuphase DAC-60 while NAA is feeding T+A DAC 200. Both are connected through separate Intona USB isolators.

 

 

You know, better I can work on a certain piece of hardware, better I can optimize my NAA software module for that piece of hardware. Just like HQPlayer OS, NAA OS is built as unified piece with tightest possible integration between the OS and the HQPlayer and/or NAA software. And I believe you can hear the difference! 😉

 

[Andrey Boldakov]

4 hours ago, Mike Rubin said:

Does the NAA OS work on all rendu models?

It works on my ultraRendu, and plays better then native rendu Sonicorbiter

 

2 hours ago, Miska said:

NAA OS doesn't have web interface, package manager or any other extra bloat

Yes, and that's great! And that's why it plays better than Sonicorbiter OS! 

[Mops911]

4 hours ago, Miska said:

T+A DAC 200

Are you listening pcm over pcm path or are you resampling to dsd before feeding to the t&a? 

[Miska]

4 hours ago, Mops911 said:

Are you listening pcm over pcm path or are you resampling to dsd before feeding to the t&a? 

 

Never PCM, it would limit maximum digital filter rate to 16x instead of 256x or 512x. And I rather listen through my own 7th order modulators than through TI's 3rd order ones.

 

So always DSD.

 

[dknk]

12 hours ago, Superdad said:

Nope, it is related to a key hardware feature of the baseboard's interface with the SolidRun iMx-6 module.

Ahh, so that might be it. I have an ultraRendu, I have used both Jussi's Signalyst NAA image and the Sonore image extensively. Both to me work and sound great, I can't hear any difference.

But, when going above the specs, ie, pushing above the limits to 1536 PCM or DSD 1024, the Sonore image wins. It is stable for the most part at those rates. The Signalyst NAA image just can't handle it. I'm not faulting the Signalyst image, it works perfectly as intended at the max  stated rates of 768 PCM or DSD 512. As Jussi mentioned, Sonore should publish the tweak they are doing if it touches the kernel source tree due to GPL requirements.

 

I've logged in and monitored top processes on both the Sonore and Signalyst images while running. It seems networkaudiod just consumes too much cpu on the Signalyst image when being pushed over max supported rates and is not stable. I've tried a few tweaks to networkaudiod on the Signalyst image but could not get it stable at the high rates of 1536 PCM or 1024 DSD, I'm no programmer though.

 

You can log in as root via ssh to either image. If you put your thinking cap on, you can make that happen. You have the SD card in your hand, you have full control! I will not disclose how, but it's quite simple if you think about it.

[vortecjr]

On 3/14/2023 at 7:29 PM, Miska said:

 

And yes, NAA OS doesn't have web interface, package manager or any other extra bloat, on purpose.

But I'm using the Holo Red instead, they don't have an issue with me providing HQPlayer specific OS images for their hardware. Or anybody else doing something similar. You

Okay Okay…we are going to add a new feature to SO 2.9 call Miska Mode. Kinda like Ludicrous Mode on a Tesla:) This is how it works…you press a button and it will turn off the so called “extra bloat”. 
 

I don’t have an issue with you doing this. However, I have to inform my customers of potencial issues as I see it. Also, there is no package manager App running on SO. The web interface installs and removes Apps when the end user initiates it. From the web interface you can uninstall all the apps you don’t want and just leave NAA installed. It’s silly though because only the output protocol selected is running at any given time. The only exception to this is if you install a server App that will run concurrently with the selected output protocol.

[robi20064]

@vortecjrJesus, putting your obvious sarcasm aside, there is a clear reason some companies are having exclusive modes and turning off all protocols but one, WebUI and everything else non mandatory. iFi doing it with a hardware switch, Lumin with a Roon only config entry etc. 

 

Besides that, even that I can partly understand the reasoning behind not sharing  internals about how you configure the hardware with SO, we are living in the age of the internet and someone with enough desire and necessary skills will eventually figure it out and share it with the public. That surely won’t boost your reputation even if you are not violating GPL.

[The Computer Audiophile]

26 minutes ago, robi20064 said:

Besides that, even that I can partly understand the reasoning behind not sharing  internals about how you configure the hardware with SO, we are living in the age of the internet and someone with enough desire and necessary skills will eventually figure it out and share it with the public. That surely won’t boost your reputation even if you are not violating GPL.

Huh?

[Miska]

4 hours ago, vortecjr said:

Also, there is no package manager App running on SO.

 

You still have something like rpm or dpkg there. NAA OS or HQPlayer OS don't have such things.

 

4 hours ago, vortecjr said:

I don’t have an issue with you doing this. However, I have to inform my customers of potencial issues as I see it.

 

I'm not particularly eager to build these old iMX6 images, but I once went through the trouble to add support for Rendu (in addition to the original CuBox-i), so I can keep doing it. I already once dropped support for these, but brought it up to date because people requested it.

 

[vortecjr]

7 hours ago, robi20064 said:

@vortecjrJesus, putting your obvious sarcasm aside, there is a clear reason some companies are having exclusive modes and turning off all protocols but one, WebUI and everything else non mandatory. iFi doing it with a hardware switch, Lumin with a Roon only config entry etc. 

Sure...it's called marketing.

 

I ran a test here streaming Redbook CD content to NAA on my personal Rendu. It has all the protocols installed, but no server apps installed. Using Top in the general information section it says 1 task is running and the reset are sleeping with CPU usage in the single digits. It shows 6-8 tasks using CPU with one of them being Top that normally does not run on the unit. A few of the tasks use .3% CPU each. NAA and the web server use CPU percentages in the medium to low single digits. The NAA is set to run in real time with maximum priority. The web server runs with normal priority. None of this is even scratching the surface of pushing the system in a way worth worrying about.   

[robi20064]

7 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Huh?

 

Based on the comments and people's experience above, there is some specific setting what SonicOrbiter is configuring for the ultrarendu which makes PCM 1536 / DSD 1024 playback stable while the same is currently not possible with Miska's cubox-i based NAA image. Alex obviously knows what it is, but at this point it is not public knowledge. Jesus could be nice and reach out to Miska privately sharing the information, or he can wait until someone will figure it out.

[vortecjr]

4 hours ago, Miska said:

 

You still have something like rpm or dpkg there. NAA OS or HQPlayer OS don't have such things.

 

 

I'm not particularly eager to build these old iMX6 images, but I once went through the trouble to add support for Rendu (in addition to the original CuBox-i), so I can keep doing it. I already once dropped support for these, but brought it up to date because people requested it.

 

The app we use does nothing until the end user wants to install and uninstall something. Your comment about bloat is nothing more than an exaggeration and it's sad customers latch on to these ideas. 

 

This is the industry we are in and if enough people want it then it may be worth doing it.