EtherREGEN: The long development thread. [Some Gen2 dev. pics and update starting on page 92.]

[austinpop]

11 hours ago, Aidagent said:

This is my first post in this forum. First I want to tell you that English is not my native language. I hope you have patience.

 

I have followed this thread for a long time with interest. I admire enthusiasts who put their soul into creating the best conditions possible to reproduce the music as it was created. I am impressed by what you create and wait patiently for the product to come into my setup. I think it's good that you take the time you need to make you feel satisfied and ready to launch.

I have several products in my setup that are made by enthusiasts whose goal is greater than just making money. It is nothing wrong in makeing money. but if it is the highest goal, it often leads to short-term decisions that rarely yield the best results in the long run. I am not technically savvy. so it is difficult for me to judge how great the product will do in my system. But every litle bit of disturbance thats cleaned out of the signal adds up to a better musical experience.

 

Thank you for your work and the way you communicate with us followers. And thanks to everyone who writes in the thread for your interesting questions.

 

Johnny Cash Johnsson (without cash)

from Sweden.

 

Welcome to the forum. I like your signature, Johnny Cash (without cash)!

 

I’m in agreement with @Superdad - your English is probably better than half the English speakers who post here.  

[thyname]

11 hours ago, Aidagent said:

First I want to tell you that English is not my native language. I hope you have patience.

 

 

Except for the total failure to spell your own name 🤪😉

[Bones13]

13 hours ago, jamesg11 said:

I know, I know, ... but it’s a major learning curve for those of us with little experience of it ... been looking at HQP’s convolution, bought myself a umik1 mic, collecting guides, maybe all-too-hard ... but it’s still gonna sound better with the etherRegen in there!

 

I used that microphone with the REW software (free, with great documentation and guide) and worked with the folks at GIK Acoustics. I have a small room, and it made a huge difference. I sent my REW graph, and a sketch of my room. As I use a turntable, and audio sound, I needed to treat the room, not just use a confabulator file to correct a Roon output. REW will output a confabulator file if you want to go that route.

 

 

[octaviars]

On 9/7/2019 at 3:47 AM, Superdad said:

I can't wait to put EtherREGEN in my system! 

 

 

I think we are many here that can't wait to put the etherREGEN in their systems 😉 

I'm  looking forward to feeding my dCS Network bridge with the "b-side" port ☺️

[Bernstein]

It's like an itching and all about EtherRegen...

[jamesg11]

“... scratch my back” (Slim Harpo).

[Johnnydev]

Dear John and Alex,
I have been following this topic on this forum for quite  some time.
The development, technical(john)and business model(Alex), the openness (both) of the EtherRegen generates a lot of 
respect and appreciation for both of you.
The technical development is very unique in the world and the business model is in my opinion also world class.
I have quite a few experiences with cables, switches and 
LPS power supplies etc.but can't wait for your EtherRegen.
Good luck and hope as soon as everything is working
okay to receive a message that it can be ordered.
Sorry for my english, but it's not better.

[rncasper]

Been fun to follow this thread--I too have been eagerly awaiting the EtherREGEN. I'm wondering about the SMPS provided--would you suggest it be plugged straight into the wall, as you do with the SMPS you send along with the LPS 1.2? And still interested in whether or not an LPS makes a difference. Thanks.

[Superdad]

8 hours ago, Johnnydev said:

The development, technical(john)and business model(Alex), the openness (both) of the EtherRegen generates a lot of 
respect and appreciation for both of you.
The technical development is very unique in the world and the business model is in my opinion also world class.
I have quite a few experiences with cables, switches and 
LPS power supplies etc.but can't wait for your EtherRegen.

 

Thank you for all your kind words and enthusiasm.  And welcome to the Audiophile Style forum! 

[Superdad]

15 minutes ago, rncasper said:

Been fun to follow this thread--I too have been eagerly awaiting the EtherREGEN. I'm wondering about the SMPS provided--would you suggest it be plugged straight into the wall, as you do with the SMPS you send along with the LPS 1.2? And still interested in whether or not an LPS makes a difference. Thanks.

 

The UpTone-branded 36W SMPS--which is provided as the "energizer"/charging supply for the LPS-1.2 and will also be the stock PS included with EtherREGEN--is slightly unique in that it is internally "ground-shunted."  That is, the outer barrel shell (-VE/"ground") of its DC output is--through circuits in the case--connected to AC mains ground.  The effect of that is to eliminate high-source-impedance AC leakage.  (Note that this does nothing to eliminate the low-source-impedance leakage common to all SMPS units--bad in most, much worse in some.)

Below is why this matters, and also why the recommendation with the EtherREGEN will be to insure that either:

a) EtherREGEN is powered by a power supply whose DC output -VE (outer-shell/"ground") is common to AC mains ground (such as the one we include). [Do not assume that 3rd party linear power supplies are like this--some are and some are not; Some multi-rail supplies have separate diode bridges and transformer secondaries and thus each output ground is "floated". This is easy to test with a continuity/multimeter--with all power disconnected.)

or:

b) If powered by a "floating" supply (one whose DC output -VE/"ground" is not common to mains ground), then the Ground Screw of the EtherREGEN should be used. [And yes, our UltraCap LPS-1.2 is a completely "floated" and isolated supply, so if using it with EtherREGEN the ground screw ought to be used.]

 

Back to why any of the above matters (and to what degree audibly varies--and in the case of EtherREGEN we do not know yet):

@JohnSwenson has measured high-source-impedance leakage on Ethernet cables coming from various other common network gear and computers. This can be pernicious stuff (common-mode AC leakage traveling over DC connections passes easily along both analog and digital connections in our audio systems), and it is desirable to shunt it away.  He measured a bunch of Ethernet switches and found that a few select ones--even a few cheap ones--will, when their DC power supply is shunted (as explained above), not pass AC leakage currents between their ports. 

[Some good posts of John's on leakage--can't find the one on it with the switches right now--here:

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/37034-smps-and-grounding/?do=findComment&comment=723187 and here:

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/37034-smps-and-grounding/?do=findComment&comment=735311 (tons of info in that thread)]

 

So in the design of the EtherREGEN we of course wanted to address this. In fact we have done so in several ways. The RJ45 magnetics that we chose for the four 'A'-side Gigabit ports have 12 tiny transformer cores per port. And their center-taps are wired to the ground and to the Ethernet switch chip through capacitors such that we maximize the blockage of leakage passing from port-to-port. And this works best if the unit is grounded (either through the power supply or via the ground screw).

 

But keep in mind that the above is just about blocking port-to-port leakage on the 'A' side. This has nothing to do with the full active digital isolation and reclocking moat--to the 'B'-side port--which makes the EtherREGEN unique in all the world. 

Yet frankly, with all the care we take on the 'A'-side--with all LT3045 voltage regulation, magnetics, and "femto" clocking--EtherREGEN will be a world-class switch even if the 'B' side port is never used!  But the real magic will happen when you cross the moat and use the 'B'-side port to feed your DAC-attached computer/renderer/endpoint.

 

----------

Sorry if I never quite answered your question.  

a) Don't know if plugging the stock SMPS direct to wall or into a "power conditioner" will matter--just be sure it gets a good mains ground;

b) We will all soon find out just how much or how little a good LPS benefits the EtherREGEN.

---------

 

And a quick update (busy day and I've got to get to shipping and other e-mails):

All the EtherREGEN pre-production boards are working great--end-to-end--including the SFP/optical.  John has prepped them all to be ready for user beta-test and he is shipping them down to me today (arriving Friday).  

Because the production cases won't arrive until the beginning of October, I took the milling drawings and a bunch of old LPS-1 front plates to my local machinist.  So the beta units will have end-plates that fit. Of course no silk-screened lettering--though on the 'A'-side the UpTone Audio logo from the LPS-1 faces will still be there, in the exact right spot.

 

Ciao!

--Alex C.

 

[Bricki]

G'day Alex @Superdad

 

Just a question about the stock SMPS

 

What will be the output voltage of the supplied SMPS? I thought the uptone branded one that comes with the lps1.2 had a 7.5v output, however I thought you said that the Etheregen would have an input voltage range of 9v-12v?

 

Unless I got my wires crossed somewhere (it's quite possible🤣)

[Superdad]

2 minutes ago, Bricki said:

What will be the output voltage of the supplied SMPS?

7.5V/4.8A (not that it needs anywhere near that current rating; at 7.5V, 1.3A should be fine).

 

2 minutes ago, Bricki said:

I thought you said that the Etheregen would have an input voltage range of 9v-12v?

7~12V is the range. At 12V, it will draw about 0.8A.

[rncasper]

21 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

The UpTone-branded 36W SMPS--which is provided as the "energizer"/charging supply for the LPS-1.2 and will also be the stock PS included with EtherREGEN--is slightly unique in that it is internally "ground-shunted."  That is, the outer barrel shell (-VE/"ground") of its DC output is--through circuits in the case--connected to AC mains ground.  The effect of that is to eliminate high-source-impedance AC leakage.  (Note that this does nothing to eliminate the low-source-impedance leakage common to all SMPS units--bad in most, much worse in some.)

Below is why this matters, and also why the recommendation with the EtherREGEN will be to insure that either:

a) EtherREGEN is powered by a power supply whose DC output -VE (outer-shell/"ground") is common to AC mains ground (such as the one we include). [Do not assume that 3rd party linear power supplies are like this--some are and some are not; Some multi-rail supplies have separate diode bridges and transformer secondaries and thus each output ground is "floated". This is easy to test with a continuity/multimeter--with all power disconnected.)

or:

b) If powered by a "floating" supply (one whose DC output -VE/"ground" is not common to mains ground), then the Ground Screw of the EtherREGEN should be used. [And yes, our UltraCap LPS-1.2 is a completely "floated" and isolated supply, so if using it with EtherREGEN the ground screw ought to be used.]

 

Back to why any of the above matters (and to what degree audibly varies--and in the case of EtherREGEN we do not know yet):

@JohnSwenson has measured high-source-impedance leakage on Ethernet cables coming from various other common network gear and computers. This can be pernicious stuff (common-mode AC leakage traveling over DC connections passes easily along both analog and digital connections in our audio systems), and it is desirable to shunt it away.  He measured a bunch of Ethernet switches and found that a few select ones--even a few cheap ones--will, when their DC power supply is shunted (as explained above), not pass AC leakage currents between their ports. 

[Some good posts of John's on leakage--can't find the one on it with the switches right now--here:

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/37034-smps-and-grounding/?do=findComment&comment=723187 and here:

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/37034-smps-and-grounding/?do=findComment&comment=735311 (tons of info in that thread)]

 

So in the design of the EtherREGEN we of course wanted to address this. In fact we have done so in several ways. The RJ45 magnetics that we chose for the four 'A'-side Gigabit ports have 12 tiny transformer cores per port. And their center-taps are wired to the ground and to the Ethernet switch chip through capacitors such that we maximize the blockage of leakage passing from port-to-port. And this works best if the unit is grounded (either through the power supply or via the ground screw).

 

But keep in mind that the above is just about blocking port-to-port leakage on the 'A' side. This has nothing to do with the full active digital isolation and reclocking moat--to the 'B'-side port--which makes the EtherREGEN unique in all the world. 

Yet frankly, with all the care we take on the 'A'-side--with all LT3045 voltage regulation, magnetics, and "femto" clocking--EtherREGEN will be a world-class switch even if the 'B' side port is never used!  But the real magic will happen when you cross the moat and use the 'B'-side port to feed your DAC-attached computer/renderer/endpoint.

 

----------

Sorry if I never quite answered your question.  

a) Don't know if plugging the stock SMPS direct to wall or into a "power conditioner" will matter--just be sure it gets a good mains ground;

b) We will all soon find out just how much or how little a good LPS benefits the EtherREGEN.

---------

 

And a quick update (busy day and I've got to get to shipping and other e-mails):

All the EtherREGEN pre-production boards are working great--end-to-end--including the SFP/optical.  John has prepped them all to be ready for user beta-test and he is shipping them down to me today (arriving Friday).  

Because the production cases won't arrive until the beginning of October, I took the milling drawings and a bunch of old LPS-1 front plates to my local machinist.  So the beta units will have end-plates that fit. Of course no silk-screened lettering--though on the 'A'-side the UpTone Audio logo from the LPS-1 faces will still be there, in the exact right spot.

 

Ciao!

--Alex C.

 

 

Much thanks--you did indeed, and then some! And counting down the days for the launch . . .

[Pinkfaunrookie]

Curious..price indication, is that still around what you told us a few months ago: Around 600ish usd? Or are we now talking about more?

[Superdad]

1 hour ago, Pinkfaunrookie said:

Curious..price indication, is that still around what you told us a few months ago: Around 600ish usd? Or are we now talking about more?

 

A few pages page I gave a semi-formal announcement of US$625.  I'm going to do one final analysis, yet I think it will stay very close to that.

 

Our profit margin is actually very thin at that price. A very modest 2X total parts cost + John's royalty would dictate us pricing about $710.  

Since our products always sell in satisfying volume (close to 5,000 USB/ISO REGENs and 2,800 UltraCaps worldwide) without requiring any ad campaign or Sales/Marketing Manager (I wear that hat among five others! ), I think we'll do alright at a 42% margin (that's before taxes, office expenses, and my assistant's labor).

 

A lot of people--including a few business-savvy friends--think we should price our products higher. But I'd rather sell more units and spread the good sound around the world.  We'll leave the fancy cases and inflated prices to the firms that follow the path we blaze. 

[Bernstein]

2 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

A few pages page I gave a semi-formal announcement of US$625.  I'm going to do one final analysis, yet I think it will stay very close to that.

 

Our profit margin is actually very thin at that price. A very modest 2X total parts cost + John's royalty would dictate us pricing about $710.  

Since our products always sell in satisfying volume (close to 5,000 USB/ISO REGENs and 2,800 UltraCaps worldwide) without requiring any ad campaign or Sales/Marketing Manager (I wear that hat among five others! ), I think we'll do alright at a 42% margin (that's before taxes, office expenses, and my assistant's labor).

 

A lot of people--including a few business-savvy friends--think we should price our products higher. But I'd rather sell more units and spread the good sound around the world.  We'll leave the fancy cases and inflated prices to the firms that follow the path we blaze. 

 

Going strong Alex! We are here to support and listen... 😃

If you plan to go the Munich High End Show please let me know. 

[Superdad]

3 minutes ago, Bernstein said:

Going strong Alex! We are here to support and listen... 😃

If you plan to go the Munich High End Show please let me know. 

 

Thanks!

But I have seen the exhibit booth rates for Munich. We would need to double the price of EtherREGEN just to afford a little booth there! 

Yet I'm sure by next year a bunch of Munich-exhibiting audio firms will be demonstrating with an EtherREGEN buried behind their racks...

[Bernstein]

Visit and meet people should be enough...

[stevebythebay]

And on a separate note: how’s your recovery going?  I know ribs can take a long time to fully heal. 

[Superdad]

2 hours ago, stevebythebay said:

And on a separate note: how’s your recovery going?  I know ribs can take a long time to fully heal. 

Hi Steve. Thanks for asking.  Most all the pain is gone.  I still feel it a bit when I sneeze hard, and I can not yet take extremely deep breaths.  Also, I have mostly stopped sleeping on my left side, not because of much rib pain, but because I wake up with a lot of pain in my shoulder and under my shoulder blade if I do.  I think this must be somehow related to the rib fractures. There is an experienced bodywork therapist I sometimes use--and he is about to get a call from me.

-------

 

For EtherREGEN testing, I just received in a pair of inexpensive Gigabit optical SFP modules and an LC fiber cable. John has already tested the optical port in every direction. I'm just setting up for my own fooling around with it for when all the working beta-boards arrive to my office tomorrow.  

Once both the heatsink and fancy thermal compound material arrive next week, we should be able to begin sending out units to our small beta-test pool. 

[austinpop]

1 hour ago, Superdad said:

Hi Steve. Thanks for asking.  Most all the pain is gone.  I still feel it a bit when I sneeze hard, and I can not yet take extremely deep breaths.  Also, I have mostly stopped sleeping on my left side, not because of much rib pain, but because I wake up with a lot of pain in my shoulder and under my shoulder blade if I do.  I think this must be somehow related to the rib fractures. There is an experienced bodywork therapist I sometimes use--and he is about to get a call from me.

 

I hear ya. Rib fractures aren't what they're cracked up to be. And they're certainly nothing to sneeze at.   I hope I didn't make you chuckle too hard.

 

Feel better soon. And great to hear about the EtherRegen progress.

[daverich4]

On 9/8/2019 at 8:13 AM, Bones13 said:

 

I used that microphone with the REW software (free, with great documentation and guide) and worked with the folks at GIK Acoustics. I have a small room, and it made a huge difference. I sent my REW graph, and a sketch of my room. As I use a turntable, and audio sound, I needed to treat the room, not just use a confabulator file to correct a Roon output. REW will output a confabulator file if you want to go that route.

 

 

 

Did you perhaps mean a convolution file?

[thotdoc]

On 9/12/2019 at 2:25 PM, Superdad said:

 

A few pages page I gave a semi-formal announcement of US$625.  I'm going to do one final analysis, yet I think it will stay very close to that.

 

Our profit margin is actually very thin at that price. A very modest 2X total parts cost + John's royalty would dictate us pricing about $710.  

Since our products always sell in satisfying volume (close to 5,000 USB/ISO REGENs and 2,800 UltraCaps worldwide) without requiring any ad campaign or Sales/Marketing Manager (I wear that hat among five others! ), I think we'll do alright at a 42% margin (that's before taxes, office expenses, and my assistant's labor).

 

A lot of people--including a few business-savvy friends--think we should price our products higher. But I'd rather sell more units and spread the good sound around the world.  We'll leave the fancy cases and inflated prices to the firms that follow the path we blaze. 

Alex, charge what you need to charge to make a good profit. If the switch does everything you say it does, make a real profit. You re running a business that will need to make enough money to take you through the lean times and you need to save for retirement, etc.  You are not selling a switch. You are selling increased audio realism. 

[LowMidHigh]

11 minutes ago, thotdoc said:

Alex, charge what you need to charge to make a good profit. If the switch does everything you say it does, make a real profit. You re running a business that will need to make enough money to take you through the lean times and you need to save for retirement, etc.  You are not selling a switch. You are selling increased audio realism. 

 

I tell you what, let's kindly have Alex keep the price at $625 for people who work hard for their money and whose budget is tight. Anyone else who's is highly appreciative of Uptone's product can send Alex any additional amount they fancy. Would that work for you?

[Pinkfaunrookie]

 And I can agree with that...lots of people come to uptone because the price-quality ratio is very good...even people with not much money buys his products because they know they get a lot for their money...i know of people who put 50 dolars aside every month to buy one of their products because their budget was tight...uptone is one of those companies who genuinly care about their customers AND future customers...well done!