Amazon Music HD With iOS, macOS, Windows 10, BluOS, and a Sonos Port

exdmd · October 16, 2019

There is a thread commenting on Amazon Music HD active for one month now at the Amazon forum. Posters have been complaining about sound quality on Windows 10 and lack of exclusive mode from the start and Amazon keeps posting the same polite canned responses thanking for feedback with no indication they are actively addressing the problems we have with the service. It looks like posting has slowed down as readers are realizing Amazon does not appear to be really interested in correcting problems audiophiles have with Amazon Music HD.

Sal1950 · October 16, 2019

Thanks Chris,

As long as Amazon doesn't offer an exclusive mode for the Win10 app it's a non starter for me. That's a shame since there's so much potential at hand to offer HD level music at a very reasonable cost.

keeper · October 16, 2019

I have a Bluesound node 2i directly connected to a AustinTrew power amp and Focal speakers.

Really simple to navigate and sounds great, no interest in bit perfect, exclusive mode etc, etc, I listen to and enjoy the music not chase numbers and technical details that don’t prove that you will enjoy what you are listening to, isn’t that the whole point of music?

The Computer Audiophile · October 16, 2019

4 minutes ago, keeper said:

I have a Bluesound node 2i directly connected to a AustinTrew power amp and Focal speakers.

Really simple to navigate and sounds great, no interest in bit perfect, exclusive mode etc, etc, I listen to and enjoy the music not chase numbers and technical details that don’t prove that you will enjoy what you are listening to, isn’t that the whole point of music?

I don't agree that there's a single "whole point of music." But, many of us increase our enjoyment of music when it sounds as close as possible to what's on the recording. I don't think attempting to play exactly what someone has purchased is to be looked down upon from a high horse either.

Melvin · October 16, 2019

Thank you Chris. I also hope Amazon improves the service. I've had a pretty good experience so far and will continue using it when my trial ends. I don't love the UI but I'm getting used to it. Nor do I much like Bluesound's integration. A Bluesound support dude on their forum stated once Amazon releases some new code (which they are currently working on) Bluesound will update their integration.

I've been going back and forth between my Bluesound Node 2 and Sonore microRendu. The Node 2 is very convenient. I have it wired via analog out and digital out to my DAC. Both sound quite good with the digital connection edging out the analog. I like that both outputs are active at the same time .. sometimes I just don't want to fire up the DAC.

For the microRendu I use Shairport (AirPlay emulator) in conjunction with Amazon's iOS app/AirPlay on my iPad. Shairport is limited to 16/44.1 (according to a member here who enlighted me) thus everything above that rate is down-converted. The sound quality is fantastic nonetheless. In fact, I'd venture to say it's better than the Node 2 at any bit/sample rate.

keeper · October 16, 2019

50 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I don't agree that there's a single "whole point of music." But, many of us increase our enjoyment of music when it sounds as close as possible to what's on the recording. I don't think attempting to play exactly what someone has purchased is to be looked down upon from a high horse either.

Chis I’m not looking down from any high horse, but the primary purpose of music is to listen to and enjoy it and that’s my focus.

I fully understand people use music as various forms of a hobby, be that collecting, reading lp covers, upgrading equipment etc etc.

And getting it as close as possible to what’s on the recording is pure perception unless you have the memory to compare it against the actual recording, people will hear different things based on the quality of the persons hearing and perceptions.

People shouldn’t discount a service if they haven’t listened to it, because who knows they might actually enjoy what they listen to, if they don’t they don’t.

But you will only ever know if you listen no matter what the equipment.

The Computer Audiophile · October 16, 2019

2 minutes ago, keeper said:

And getting it as close as possible to what’s on the recording is pure perception unless you have the memory to compare it against the actual recording, people will hear different things based on the quality of the persons hearing and perceptions.

I agree with some of what you say in that we never know how close a recording is to the actual event, if there was an actual event, because we weren't there. However, to use an extreme example, we could take one's favorite music and keep reducing the quality until it isn't recognizable. Then go back up the quality scale. There are points on this continuum where music is more enjoyable than others. That's my point. Music can be more enjoyable for many if the quality is increased. This has noting to do with accuracy to an event, but accuracy to the recording as delivered by an artist.

adam2434 · October 16, 2019

For Sonos, it would be interesting if someone could clock the Sonos device on their router while playing "HD" and "Ultra HD" tracks to determine if both are in the right bitrate range for 16/44.1 FLAC.

I figured that Amazon Music would also have a "HD" 16/44.1 version of every track they have in "Ultra HD", rather than doing real-time downsampling to each Sonos device, for example...unless Sonos can downsample.

Heos (at least built-in Heos) supports "HD" and "Ultra HD" at their native bit depths and sampling rates. But, as I've mentioned before, the Amazon Music app within Heos in clunky and lacks My Music.

Not sure if the Heos Link HS2 will do 24/192 from the digital outs, but I would guess it can.

If Heos adds My Music, it will become a great platform for Amazon Music HD. The $350 Heos Link HS2 is not "too bad" of an add-on cost, IMO.

I'm surprised Amazon does not make a streaming box that can decode and digitally output the full native native bit depths and sampling rates. Seems like they should have had this available at the time of the launch. However, if such a box existed, it's not clear how it would integrate with the Amazon Music app, since Alexa Cast only directs the "SD" lossy stream, IME.

DS3368 · October 16, 2019

I have used Tidal and Qobuz before with a node2i running both optical and analog out to my Outlaw rr2160 for comparison of the DACs in the node2i and the receiver. They sound pretty much the same to my 61 year old nonaudiophile ears. I am trialing Amazon HD and find the sound quality to be just as good as CD or MQA or PCM (Qobuz) from the other services. I can find all of the music I want but the Bluos app on Android isn't as efficient in finding music on Amazon as it is on Tidal or Qobuz. Maybe it will improve? My receiver does flash the sampling rates on an optical input so I know I'm getting 192k when it's available. Frankly I can't hear the difference between sampling rates anyway. I do think the sound is a touch more detailed on 24bit as opposed to 16bit but it also depends on the quality of the recording. My bottom line is I'm committed to streaming as my main listening mode and Amazon sounds as good as Tidal and Qobuz at a significantly lower cost. I'll stick with Amazon after the trial with an annual subscription which is even more cost effective.

MhtLion · October 16, 2019

I hope Amazon pays attention this wonderful article. The findings here would have taken Amazon at least 1.5 years using its own staffs.

exdmd · October 16, 2019

Amazon certainly knows that both Tidal and Qobuz offer exclusive mode playback. Who enters a market without checking out the competition?

Considering they aren't addressing complaints on their own forum they may feel that the current product is "good enough" at the price. I think the best chance we have for bit perfect playback on our computers is if they open their API to Audirvana or Roon, and I don't believe we will hear about that until it happens.

The Computer Audiophile · October 17, 2019

16 minutes ago, exdmd said:

Who enters a market without checking out the competition?

Many companies do. Plus, are Qobuz and Tidal really competition for a conglomerate?

jdjaye · October 17, 2019

In my Philly apt for the work week I have a Yamaha RN-303 with a Marantz Cd Player and Focal 716 speakers - I also have a Gen 1 Amazon Fire TV box. The Yamaha has integrated pandora and Spotify but alas no Amazon music app.

WRT the Amazon music Ultra HD= hi res- I have 2 data points to share in case they are helpful to someone in the forum:

Content that Amazon says is 24/196 is transmitted via toslink from the fireTV to the Yamaha at 16/44.
The same content transmitted via airplay from an iPad using the Amazon music IOS app to the Yamaha plays at 16/44.
16/44 still sounds pretty good, to me, though it seems to drain the batter of my iPad about 4X.

mazuly · October 17, 2019

Thanks for the article.

in my case, in my system, it works through my Mac mini connected to my DAC which required change of but rate through midi. But compared to Tidal through Audirvana + on the same machine, there is no contest. Audirvana + through microRendu is even better.

I listen to it in my car now until the free trial runs out. After that I will get it if it is incorporated into Audirvana +. I have posted a massage to Amazon saying that and they thanked me, saying my comments are important to them and have been forwarded to their tech group for feasibility.

zacster · October 17, 2019

I guess I'm surprised that anybody thinks letting Amazon control music would be a good thing. Don't they control enough of what we buy already?

The Computer Audiophile · October 17, 2019

2 hours ago, zacster said:

I guess I'm surprised that anybody thinks letting Amazon control music would be a good thing. Don't they control enough of what we buy already?

I don’t disagree.

markebrauer · October 17, 2019

My observations on Amazon Music HD after one month.

First be aware, the 3 month free trial is only a trial of the HD service. To take advantage of this, one must also subscribe to the Amazon Music Unlimited service. I was not a subscriber, so when I signed up for HD I was also enrolled in the basic service. That offers only a 1 month free trial. After the first month, to continue to get the HD service, the cost would be $9.99 ($7.99 for Prime members). To "free trial" HD for 3 months would actually cost me $14.98. My month ends tomorrow and I will not be continuing the trial.

I have a Bluesound Node 2 and the Amazon service works fine, just as Chris describes. SQ is good - no complaints. One quirk, CDs purchased from Amazon with the "auto rip" feature automatically show up in your ALBUMS. If you play them, they are the auto rip MP3 versions. If you want the uncompressed versions you must add them to your ALBUMS yourself. In the BluOS interface, when you search for something in Amazon Music, typing does not immediately start reporting "hits" like Spotify and Tidal do. You have to type first and then choose whether to search "my music" (things you have purchased) or "Amazon music" (the whole streaming catalog). This is a lot less convenient.

I also use the Chromecast Audio and was curious how Amazon music works with that. Amazon admits it does not directly support Chromecast Audio but it does post instructions on how to play music on it. Basically you must use the local cast functions on your device, meaning the stream comes to your device and then is sent from there to the Chromecast. I believe this is what's called "mirroring". It does work but it is unclear if the stream is altered by the intermediate device, and of course, when the device leaves the local WiFi network, or the controlling app is shut down, the music stops. Streaming this way is also a constant draw on the controlling device's battery.

So I acquired an Echo Input to see if staying in the Amazon ecosystem gave better results. Amazon has implemented its own casting function for Echo products. But again, it is a mirroring function. Even Amazon's own music app does not stream directly from the source to the Echo. The same is true for Tidal and Spotify. This is disappointing.

(Side point: The Echo Input's SQ seems OK. Maybe not quite as good as the analog output of the Chromecast, and certainly not as good as the Chromecast's optical output feeding a good DAC, but good enough for my secondary system. I did not do extensive listening so my opinion on this could change.)

As a final test I tried playing music directly from the Alexa app on my Android phone to the Echo Input. The app is not a music app. You cannot browse the music catalog. You cannot type in a search on "Beatles" and then see their albums. In the app you are stuck with the suggested playlists and "stations" that Amazon sees fit to present on the screen.

The way to play what you specifically want is to ask Alexa for it, by speaking to ALexa through the Echo Input. This works fine if you are satisfied by saying "Alexa, play Taylor Swift" but if you want to hear "Tales from the Vienna Woods by Johann Strauss played by the Vienna Symphony Orchestra lead by Jacob Kreizberg" - well good luck. The problem is you have probably forgotten (I did) that that it's really the Weiner Symphoniker, the titles of the songs are in German where "tales" is pronounced "geschichten", and it's Yakov not Jacob. You can spend quite a bit of time speaking at Alexa before you ever hear one note of the music you want. The good news is, if you start the stream using Alexa, the music is cast directly from Amazon Music to the Echo, no intermediate device is involved. Bit perfect? Who knows.

bluesman · October 17, 2019

"Communication with Amazon has been nearly impossible".....and typical of their interaction with stakeholders who aren't major players in their business plan. I've been building an internet startup for about 2 years now, and signed the business up as an Amazon Affiliate over a year ago so we could host ads on our website for relevant items and generate some operating revenue along with exposure.

Their requirement for maintaining Affiliate status is at least one sale by click-through within the first 180 days. We had 5 - but they canceled the account anyway. When I asked why, I got a bizarre response that they don't count purchases made by anyone already known to our business because they have this program to generate new customers. My response was that the purchases were made by individuals from IP addresses easily verified as independent of us and on the other side of the country, and that so many people already have Amazon accounts that it's almost impossible to find customers truly new to Amazon. I got no response to this.

Amazon has some of the finest, most creative minds on the planet working for them, along with world class solution designers, coders, etc. And their IT infrastructure is among the best in the world. I migrated my entire web presence (5 active sites at present) to AWS about 2 years ago because it's so good and such great value. They must also have some experienced audiophiles among their ranks. So they really ought to be able to come up with a more elegant solution than this one, given that they have the entire music supply chain covered from source material through delivery.

Ralf11 · October 17, 2019

1 hour ago, bluesman said:

"Communication with Amazon has been nearly impossible".....and typical of their interaction with stakeholders who aren't major players in their business plan. I've been building an internet startup for about 2 years now, and signed the business up as an Amazon Affiliate over a year ago so we could host ads on our website for relevant items and generate some operating revenue along with exposure.

Their requirement for maintaining Affiliate status is at least one sale by click-through within the first 180 days. We had 5 - but they canceled the account anyway. When I asked why, I got a bizarre response that they don't count purchases made by anyone already known to our business because they have this program to generate new customers. My response was that the purchases were made by individuals from IP addresses easily verified as independent of us and on the other side of the country, and that so many people already have Amazon accounts that it's almost impossible to find customers truly new to Amazon. I got no response to this.

Amazon has some of the finest, most creative minds on the planet working for them, along with world class solution designers, coders, etc. And their IT infrastructure is among the best in the world. I migrated my entire web presence (5 active sites at present) to AWS about 2 years ago because it's so good and such great value. They must also have some experienced audiophiles among their ranks. So they really ought to be able to come up with a more elegant solution than this one, given that they have the entire music supply chain covered from source material through delivery.

they might let you "chat" with a 12 year old in India

or, you can Email Jeff - that worked for me

jdjaye · October 17, 2019

18 hours ago, jdjaye said:

In my Philly apt for the work week I have a Yamaha RN-303 with a Marantz Cd Player and Focal 716 speakers - I also have a Gen 1 Amazon Fire TV box. The Yamaha has integrated pandora and Spotify but alas no Amazon music app.

WRT the Amazon music Ultra HD= hi res- I have 2 data points to share in case they are helpful to someone in the forum:

Content that Amazon says is 24/196 is transmitted via toslink from the fireTV to the Yamaha at 16/44.
The same content transmitted via airplay from an iPad using the Amazon music IOS app to the Yamaha plays at 16/44.
16/44 still sounds pretty good, to me, though it seems to drain the batter of my iPad about 4X.

Also - from my ipad (2018), either from the internal speakers or the 3.5 mm headphone jack, the same 24/192 track is reported as playing out at 24/48

Ryantherockgod · October 18, 2019

"How does the user know which sample rate is being streamed from Amazon?".

I don't understand. If you click on the Ultra HD square it tells you. It also tells you what your device is capable of. So if I play from my iPhone using the Apple dongle it recognizes it's only capable of 48/24. If I plug in my Dragonfly it recognizes it's capable of 96/24. And it always says it's playing at the resolution it was downloaded at--unless it's 192/24 and it has to downgrade it to my device's upper capability. So if I download a 96/24 album it says it's playing at 96/24 with the Dragonfly but only 48/24 when I rely on Apple's dongle or my Bluetooth headphones.

I'm not an audiophile expert, but I'm not understanding the issue. Unless Amazon is lying, aren't these tracks already playing at the resolution they are supposed to be playing at?

Graham Luke · October 18, 2019

Folks shouldn't get upset over 16 bit as opposed to 24; there's nothing extra there that you can hear anyhoo...

Sal1950 · October 18, 2019

On 10/16/2019 at 2:11 PM, The Computer Audiophile said:

I agree with some of what you say in that we never know how close a recording is to the actual event, if there was an actual event, because we weren't there. However, to use an extreme example, we could take one's favorite music and keep reducing the quality until it isn't recognizable. Then go back up the quality scale. There are points on this continuum where music is more enjoyable than others. That's my point. Music can be more enjoyable for many if the quality is increased. This has noting to do with accuracy to an event, but accuracy to the recording as delivered by an artist.

+1

Without an available exclusive stream path, who knows what SQ you'll end up with at the speakers after the stream navigates whatever digital paths your individual system may be putting it thru.

In the end you might be better off with the still cheaper Spotify Premium with which "Spotify Connect" can send it's stream directly into many of todays media players. Spotify still has arguably the largest catalog of music and best UI of all the current streamers.

James Osborne · October 18, 2019

I see that (amongst a number of others) that Arcam are displayed as a 'preferred brand' for Amazon Music. Does anybody know what support for Amazon they are bringing to their line-up of streamers? Or is it more vaporware?

jdjaye · October 18, 2019

7 hours ago, Graham Luke said:

Folks shouldn't get upset over 16 bit as opposed to 24; there's nothing extra there that you can hear anyhoo...

I respectfully disagree— but let’s discuss why in a different forum topic please.

I don’t want to derail the main thread here which is:

“what is the scope and quality of the new Amazon Music HD service and to integrate it into people’s audio systems.”

And I’ll ask the folks want to discuss the value and cost and their judgements of Amazon as a corporate entity to also discuss that in another topic in the forums.

Folks please let’s keep this topic, on topic- it provides valuable objective information to those who are using or considering using Amazon Music HD.

Amazon Music HD With iOS, macOS, Windows 10, BluOS, and a Sonos Port

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