Tuttle et al v Audiophile Music Direct

[Confused]

59 minutes ago, firedog said:

People who are upset should just send in their LP and get their money back. Yeah, you got deceived. Get over it. You aren't suffering from PTSD because of it. Drop the suit.

Or digitize the LP, then send it back for refund.

 

That'll teach 'em!

[Archimago]

55 minutes ago, hopkins said:

 

I am not the one making value judgements here or even claiming there will ever be perfection... However, to put it differently, I think it is interesting to understand what people hear and why.i don't believe that vinyl lovers "like distortion" to be a sufficient explanation. 

 

 

Same here. 

 

It's either they like the EQ or other changes that MoFi/other remaster job added (like making sure levels not too hot especially bass) . Or distortion either in production of the LP or on one's playback system, right? 

 

Is there anything else missed to account for changes? 

[botrytis]

1 minute ago, Archimago said:

 

It's either they like the EQ or other changes that MoFi/other remaster job added (like making sure levels not too hot especially bass) . Or distortion either in production of the LP or on one's playback system, right? 

 

Is there anything else missed to account for changes? 

 

P S Y C H O L O G I C A L .You cannot make someone like something they dislike (real or otherwise). It is built-in bias system in our brain that does it.

[Iving]

[musicjunkie917]

33 minutes ago, Iving said:

 

This guy is an idiot. The "original" explanation from MoFi was just an apology for being so vague. The answers Jim Davis provided to Absolute Sound are based on why the chose to use DSD. Two different things. The answer the Enginneers gave said that a DSD copy of the master tape(s) is better than a tape copy regardless of tape size or speed. Jim Davis echoed that....

[The Computer Audiophile]

I think MoFI should rename these from One Step to One Digital Step :~)

[The Computer Audiophile]

Or perhaps, We Left Out One Small Step :~)

[The Computer Audiophile]

Either way, nobody is killing puppies or saving babies. 

[Iving]

Strictly On Topic, I don't know the American legal system.

 

In the UK, Sale of Goods Act determines must be as described. I think probably MoFi would fail on this. At least that seems to be weight of opinon out there.

 

As others have said, how you would quantify loss/indemnity is moot.

 

My feelings about it are in the original thread on this Forum (courtesy of @JoshM). I don't like what MoFi have done as an analogue/vinyl enthusiast - but I am not affected because (near) all my vinyl is pre-digital - matching my taste in music. I have up to a dozen MFSL LPs and they are almost certainly all AAA.

 

I agree that stamping digits on vinyl is just pure crazy. I wish young people spurned digital vinyl preferring to chase down era-congruent records. I'm sure many do.

[PYP]

54 minutes ago, Iving said:

why did you make me watch this?  Although, to be fair, I was laughing most of the time and that is healthy.   I'm not saying folks don't deserve to know what they are "consuming," but what a "destruction of multiple galaxies in a teapot!"  If we need a distraction from our crazy world, this would be a fine first step.    For those schooled in psychology:  Is this an Id, Ego or Superego problem?    Please bloviate at length.  If we try hard enough, eventually we can equal the length of the MQA thread.   

[Iving]

6 minutes ago, PYP said:

why did you make me watch this?  Although, to be fair, I was laughing most of the time and that is healthy.   I'm not saying folks don't deserve to know what they are "consuming," but what a "destruction of multiple galaxies in a teapot!"  If we need a distraction from our crazy world, this would be a fine first step.    For those schooled in psychology:  Is this an Id, Ego or Superego problem?    Please bloviate at length.  If we try hard enough, eventually we can equal the length of the MQA thread.   

 

What did you think of the reflections on Fremer and his ears?

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

3 hours ago, Archimago said:

 

Is there anything else missed to account for changes? 

 

Probably. 

 

I suspect that analog can be exempt of some of the issues of digital - while at the same time having  its own issues (some of which have been mentioned in this thread). 

 

If you believe, as you clearly state in your reviews, that digital can and often does provide high fidelity (readers can refer to your latest DAC review), then you will also believe that you have not missed anything in your assessment of analog.

 

Consequently, discussing this topic with you would once again lead to a discussion of the relevance and comprehensiveness of measurements (since your "beliefs" are based on a "system" of measurements).

 

I could offer the contradicting point of view of some experts in the field, but by definition it is hard to "demonstrate" that measurements are limited by providing the same old measurements... It requires developing new measurement techniques, and that can be very challenging. But that does not mean that hypotheses are not based on "data" - it may not be the data you are looking at...

 

So you would then explain, as others have just done in another thread, and as you have done here many times before, that I am dismissing the  "objective" data, and not following a "scientific" approach. 

 

In summary, discussing this with you is utterly pointless 🙂

It's a shame. 

 

 

 

 

[PYP]

38 minutes ago, Iving said:

 

What did you think of the reflections on Fremer and his ears?

That was my second favorite part.  It reminds me of reading one of his reviews of a preamp many years ago.  He loved it until the measurements showed its distortion was high and other ears said it was rather "flavored."  Then he said that of course he could hear the flaws.   Sound familiar?

 

Best part was the revelation, told in "and this is late breaking news" tones, that if you own this vinyl you can only recover the full cost of buying it if you sold it on eBay.  And that is after you have used it for years.  I can see that argument in court:  "I enjoyed this album immensely until I found out it isn't as good as it was said to be and now I can only recover the full cost I paid after listening to it for years."   

 

I'm only surprised that this is a legal matter.  Lately, in the U.S., if you offend someone's ideology they send you death threats and/or show up at your house and scare your kids.   These days, we tend to skip the deep state legal system for some good old frontier justice.   To quote high-minded politicians:  But I'm not advocating violence.  

[fas42]

5 hours ago, hopkins said:

 

I am not the one making value judgements here or even claiming there will ever be perfection... However, to put it differently, I think it is interesting to understand what people hear and why i don't believe that vinyl lovers "like distortion" to be a sufficient explanation.

 

Historically vinyl distortion has been easier on the ears than the digital variety, and gives better long term listening pleasure; which is why the greatest accolade that could be bestowed upon a new bit of digital kit has usually been, "It sounds so analogue!". Old thinking dies hard, and so the slightest misdemeanour of a recording known to have gone through a digital step is pounced upon; by contrast, transgressions of fully analogue are forgiven with a smile, .

 

People whose hearing is able to filter out the 'offness' of lacklustre digital playback are unable to understand what the fuss is about; unfortunately, once one is aware of the artifacts of sub-par digital chains then it is impossible to unhear them. One can then either embrace the "pure" analogue world, , or spend time and/or money on refining a digital chain to eliminate the irritating unpleasantness.

[JoeWhip]

I really do not see a case here. You bought a record and got a record, not an orange.

[PYP]

4 hours ago, JoeWhip said:

I really do not see a case here. You bought a record and got a record, not an orange.

You bought a record that sounded great because it was made the "right" way, except that you learn that it was made the "wrong" way and then you couldn't enjoy it any longer.    Ideology overcomes the simple pleasure of enjoying music.   

[GregWormald]

deleted duplicate

[GregWormald]

12 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I'd say it's a touch different. You ordered Beef Wellington from The Johnson Farm, but you received Beef Wellington from the Anderson Farm down the road. 

Nah, that analogy doesn't work 'cause both Wellingtons are still analog. The sausage meat has been digitised into bits.

[Gonzbull]

This whole thing is such a shame. Vinyl snobs are part of the problem I feel. I'm even thinking I might get some good albums in the possible fire sale. I'm happy that I just enjoy the music. Digital or analog don't matter to me as long as it sounds good. And they both do. 

[botrytis]

8 hours ago, PYP said:

You bought a record that sounded great because it was made the "right" way, except that you learn that it was made the "wrong" way and then you couldn't enjoy it any longer.    Ideology overcomes the simple pleasure of enjoying music.   

 

Who is to say what the 'Right Way' is? The professionals who do this for a living or a bunch of whining rank amateurs. Just saying...

[botrytis]

7 hours ago, GregWormald said:

Nah, that analogy doesn't work 'cause both Wellingtons are still analog. The sausage meat has been digitised into bits.

 

[PYP]

1 hour ago, botrytis said:

 

Who is to say what the 'Right Way' is? The professionals who do this for a living or a bunch of whining rank amateurs. Just saying...

Exactly.   Some of these hobbyists (and reviewers) reduce the matter to whether digital is ever used in the process of producing the vinyl record.   To them, the "right" way means digital was never used.   At the simplest level, there is no discussion about whether removing steps in the reproduction process, even if digital is used, results in less distortion (see the quote below).    Meanwhile, the entire recording process that occurs in order to get sound onto tape is seemingly of no importance.  

 

I find this blog about digital vs. vinyl very objective and worth reading:   https://www.grimmaudio.com/blogs/vinyl-versus-digital/    

 

From that blog:

"First of all, no one outside a mastering studio will ever hear the quality of the lacquer. In the process of vinyl production (when pressing >10000 copies of an album), the lacquer is first converted to an intermediate negative copy, from which a ‘father’ is copied, from which various ‘mothers’ are copied, from which stampers are then made that are used in the actual pressing of the vinyl (which is also a copying process). This means there are four mechanical copies between the lacquer and the vinyl record you have at home, and with every copy some details get lost and noise is added."

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 hour ago, PYP said:

Exactly.   Some of these hobbyists (and reviewers) reduce the matter to whether digital is ever used in the process of producing the vinyl record.   To them, the "right" way means digital was never used.   At the simplest level, there is no discussion about whether removing steps in the reproduction process, even if digital is used, results in less distortion (see the quote below).    Meanwhile, the entire recording process that occurs in order to get sound onto tape is seemingly of no importance.  

 

I find this blog about digital vs. vinyl very objective and worth reading:   https://www.grimmaudio.com/blogs/vinyl-versus-digital/    

 

From that blog:

"First of all, no one outside a mastering studio will ever hear the quality of the lacquer. In the process of vinyl production (when pressing >10000 copies of an album), the lacquer is first converted to an intermediate negative copy, from which a ‘father’ is copied, from which various ‘mothers’ are copied, from which stampers are then made that are used in the actual pressing of the vinyl (which is also a copying process). This means there are four mechanical copies between the lacquer and the vinyl record you have at home, and with every copy some details get lost and noise is added."

It seems to be common with many people, to reduce things down to a single black/white issue or decision etc... Life is so much easier when there is no gray and when our decisions can be made based on a single criterion. I get it, life is hard. Making it easier is usually good. But, we, myself included, can go a little overboard. 

[Rt66indierock]

1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

It seem to be common with many people, to reduce things down to a single black/white issue or decision etc... Life is so much easier when there is no gray and when our decisions can be made based on a single criterion. I get it, life is hard. Making it easier is usually good. But, we, myself included, can go a little overboard. 

 

Chris, I look at this like craft whiskey. High West Distillery’s master distiller Brendan Coyle is an artist at blending whiskey. That’s the product you are buying, an artist’s creation. Mobile Fidelity’s engineers are artists trying to create the best sounding record they can make. And if they use a broader palette than others do to achieve the result they want then so be it.

[botrytis]

2 hours ago, Rt66indierock said:

 

Chris, I look at this like craft whiskey. High West Distillery’s master distiller Brendan Coyle is an artist at blending whiskey. That’s the product you are buying, an artist’s creation. Mobile Fidelity’s engineers are artists trying to create the best sounding record they can make. And if they use a broader palette than others do to achieve the result they want then so be it.

 

Well, High West buys much of their Rye Whiskey from that alcohol plant in Indiana. I worked in the industry, for a competitor that got their Rye from the same place in Indiana until they built a large Distillery in Iowa.