Tuttle et al v Audiophile Music Direct

[Rt66indierock]

A lawsuit has been filed over the analog production chain of certain Mofi records. The case raises some interesting questions. Is it probable the plaintiffs could reasonably rely on evidence they can present that they relied on misrepresentations, or did they ignore obvious problems with an all-analog production chain and the doubts many have expressed over master tapes? Can the defendants rely on the Cheerios case, nobody can reasonably believe Cheerios would reduce cholesterol? And in Illinois have the courts ever ruled on this type of alleged misrepresentation? If they haven’t, does the first bite is free doctrine apply?  In other words, we didn’t know our statements violated consumer protection laws. We promise not to do it again.

[JoeWhip]

In a class action suit, the lawyers get a ton of money from any settlement. Each member of the class gets peanuts.

[sphinxsix]

The same should've been done with the MQA clan. 

[Samuel T Cogley]

Digitally-sourced vinyl is the biggest scam in audiophilia today.  I've always seen vinyl as a "necessary evil" to facilitate consuming content that is OOP or otherwise unavailable in digital form.  But Vinyl As A Lifestyle?  Can't help but feel a little schadenfreude at the MoFi news.

[Rt66indierock]

6 hours ago, JoeWhip said:

In a class action suit, the lawyers get a ton of money from any settlement. Each member of the class gets peanuts.

 

I wish I would ahve gotten actual peanuts for the last couple of class action settlements I received.

[Rexp]

On 8/9/2022 at 10:48 PM, Samuel T Cogley said:

Digitally-sourced vinyl is the biggest scam in audiophilia today.  I've always seen vinyl as a "necessary evil" to facilitate consuming content that is OOP or otherwise unavailable in digital form.  But Vinyl As A Lifestyle?  Can't help but feel a little schadenfreude at the MoFi news.

Some digital masters actually sound better on vinyl though, so assuming you want the best sound, a turntable is a must.

[Samuel T Cogley]

2 hours ago, Rexp said:

Some digital masters actually sound better on vinyl though, so assuming you want the best sound, a turntable is a must.

 

I got my first turntable in 1975 or so.  It was a BIC that looked something like this:

 

 

I currently have a Pro-Ject Perspex:

 

I respectfully disagree with your "best" characterization.  A digital source with added mechanical distortion will always sound worse that the same digital source without it.

 

Because of this, I believe that digitally-sourced vinyl is the biggest scam in audiophilia today.

 

 

 

 

 

[Rexp]

1 hour ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

 

I got my first turntable in 1975 or so.  It was a BIC that looked something like this:

 

 

I currently have a Pro-Ject Perspex:

 

I respectfully disagree with your "best" characterization.  A digital source with added mechanical distortion will always sound worse that the same digital source without it.

 

Because of this, I believe that digitally-sourced vinyl is the biggest scam in audiophilia today.

 

 

 

 

 

Thing is, digital files can have distortion baked into them and sometimes the process of mastering to vinyl filters out the distortion, hence better sound. 

[firedog]

8 hours ago, Rexp said:

Thing is, digital files can have distortion baked into them and sometimes the process of mastering to vinyl filters out the distortion, hence better sound. 

How does it "filter out" the distortion in a way that mastering to digital can't?

What you really seem to be saying, without realizing it, is mastering to vinyl and LP production adds on more distortion, but a type you prefer to listen to.

[Rexp]

26 minutes ago, firedog said:

How does it "filter out" the distortion in a way that mastering to digital can't?

What you really seem to be saying, without realizing it, is mastering to vinyl and LP production adds on more distortion, but a type you prefer to listen to.

Actually I borrowed this theory from Tony Faulkner who recorded this album:

[Samuel T Cogley]

7 minutes ago, Rexp said:

Actually I borrowed this theory from Tony Faulkner who recorded this album:

 

You can have the mechanical distortion.  It's just not my thing.

[Rexp]

5 minutes ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

 

You can have the mechanical distortion.  It's just not my thing.

Sure, not everyone is so susceptable to digital distortion.

[Samuel T Cogley]

1 hour ago, Rexp said:

Sure, not everyone is so susceptable to digital distortion.

 

I know the Mikey Fremer soliloquy.  Chapter and verse.

 

 

 

[firedog]

1 hour ago, Rexp said:

Actually I borrowed this theory from Tony Faulkner who recorded this album:

So far it's a claim, not a theory. And appeals to authority don't count for anything.

Again, how does the so called filtering take place, and what does it do?

[JoeWhip]

Do we really have to turn this into yet another digital v. Vinyl thread?

[Samuel T Cogley]

8 minutes ago, JoeWhip said:

Do we really have to turn this into yet another digital v. Vinyl thread?

 

I share your fatigue with the subject.

 

But at the heart of the matter is that MoFi decided that DSD256 could be characterized as an "analog" source, when they probably believed it was "indistinguishable from analog".

 

People purchased what they believed was "AAA" vinyl.  But it wasn't.  MoFi only sells SACDs, not DSD256 files.

 

I, for one, would love to get my hands on the DSD256 files they used to cut the lacquers.  That those files are not available to consumers is the real travesty.

[Rt66indierock]

3 hours ago, JoeWhip said:

Do we really have to turn this into yet another digital v. Vinyl thread?

 

I’m following the case on PACER and have talked with Mike Esposito briefly.

It should get down to whether the plaintiffs and any members of the class are reasonable consumers.  The complaint says they are audiophiles, strike one, they bought expensive vinyl records, strike two.

And since dog food is a frequently litigated item this case should go the dogs.

[Samuel T Cogley]

16 minutes ago, Rt66indierock said:

The complaint says they are audiophiles, strike one, they bought expensive vinyl records, strike two.

 

I think this is quite humorous, but I also understand many will not share this sentiment.  😎

[Rt66indierock]

12 minutes ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

 

I think this is quite humorous, but I also understand many will not share this sentiment.  😎

 

Are those people reasonable consumers?

[Samuel T Cogley]

Just now, Rt66indierock said:

 

Are those people reasonable consumers?

 

I'm torn.  Most vinyl aficionados that I've met seem to believe they understand the tech behind how modern vinyl (especially vinyl sourced from pre-digital masters) is made.

 

But I'm struggling to understand how they thought it was possible that MoFi was taking multiple passes at a master tape every time the Ultradisc One-Step "Convert" wore out.  Anyone who has been around any vintage master tapes know how fragile they are and know that you typically get one, and only one opportunity to capture it.

 

It makes me wonder if any alleged "AAA" vinyl from the modern age is legit.

 

Put another way...

 

Before the class action lawsuit:

 

 

After the class action lawsuit:

 

 

See the difference?

[Rexp]

This issue here is MoFo were dishonest and anyone supporting their position is either naive or also a dishonest person.

[Samuel T Cogley]

I suppose the lawsuit will determine how "dishonest" they were.  The gullibility of consumers is also in play here.

[sphinxsix]

15 minutes ago, Rexp said:

This issue here is MoFo were dishonest

I agree. At least this should be the issue.

 

[Rt66indierock]

39 minutes ago, Rexp said:

This issue here is MoFo were dishonest and anyone supporting their position is either naive or also a dishonest person.

It might look that way to someone not well versed in American Law. But the plaintiffs must show they are reasonable consumers. As I noted earlier this will prove difficult.

 

[Axiom05]

12 hours ago, Rexp said:

Actually I borrowed this theory from Tony Faulkner who recorded this album:

Tony Faulkner made some great recordings, he was a talented recording engineer. His views on recording formats were more controversial and, as I see it, not exactly based on a firm knowledge of the technology. He could make a great sounding recording regardless of the format used.