Tuttle et al v Audiophile Music Direct

[sphinxsix]

44 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I’d spend $100 on the same MoFi package if it contained a USB stick of the DSD256 album, rather than the plastic disc.

 

1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Count me out of the group of people who sue companies, not based on harm, but based on marketing claims that weren’t 100% literal truth. 

 

So if you spent $100 for a USB advertised as containing a DSD master material but in reality with an upsampled CD rip of an album instead (you call such situation 'marketing claim' but for me it's simply a company's lie and selling something different from an advertised product), you'd be ok with that (?)

 

[sphinxsix]

59 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Printing a digital file onto a piece of plastic and dragging a needle over it, absolutely can’t increase accuracy. 

Well said, I guess that dragging a needle a thousand times over a given LP also can't increase its accuracy, I've even heard it sometimes decreases it.. 😉

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

14 minutes ago, sphinxsix said:

 

 

So if you spent $100 for a USB advertised as containing a DSD master material but in reality with an upsampled CD rip of an album instead (you call such situation 'marketing claim' but for me it's simply a company's lie and selling something different from an advertised product), you'd be ok with that (?)

 

This happens all the time, however it isn’t as cut and dry as your example. we don’t need analogies here, we have the exact thing that happened. 
 

Look at some of the releases on NativeDSD.com. DSD1024 created from a DSD256 or DXD master. No deception involved in marketing though. 
 

 

MoFi actually improved the product through a digital process. Everyone said the product was improved. 

 

I think the real issue is that it strikes at the heart of the analog community. I’m not saying this in any negative way. This community has believed for years that AAA is the best way. Now it must question what it once believed. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

My favorite band Pearl Jam released many 24/96 concert albums. These were captured at 24/48. Creating the 24/96 was done through an analog console. D to A then A to D. Not my idea of purity, but the engineers liked the sound this way the best. I was originally upset, but only because I had some concept in my head that it shouldn’t have been done this way. 
 

The view from the top is always best. Most of us are looking up from the bottom, through funhouse mirrored glasses, and pontificating that we know what should’ve been done. 

[JoeWhip]

I posted this elsewhere but thought it appropriate to post it here as well. My view on the viability of a class action lawsuit against MoFi.

 

I will have to read the complaint, but as a retired trial lawyer who worked cases in federal court and one in the Supreme Court, there are many issues here. The biggest is class certification because without it, I do not see these two lead plaintiffs meeting the $75,000 threshold for diversity, even considering the possibility of punitive damages. With the claims based on state law, I could see a federal judge interpreting things narrowly and kicking the case out To be dealt with at the state court level. I have known a couple federal judges who would be loathe to have this type of case in the federal system, with state court remedies available. Without class certification, I just do not see this case staying in federal court. Then you have the issue of fraud and damages. Now consumer protection laws are not my area of expertise, but is the undisclosed digital step amount to legal fraud? You are still buying a record in all likelihood a great sounding one. If it can be proven that the DSD transfer is transparent to the master, what is the injury? For people who buy these one steps in part as an investment vs. actual use, that may be a bit too speculative for the court to consider. I am not even sure that the purposes of these laws is to protect that interest. Finally, my experience with class action lawsuits is that the only winners are the lawyers, on both sides. The actual plaintiffs get very little. Given all these considerations, would audiophiles like to see MoFi and Music Direct driven out of business so that a few lawyers get to make a killing? For these reasons, I do not really see this case going anywhere. But, I could be wrong.

[The Computer Audiophile]

In a way, MoFi was doing what CNN and Fox News do. Catering to its audience, even if the company knows better. If MoFi said it used digital, the audience would’ve rejected it, even though the end result was better. MoFi told the audience what it wanted to hear, and delivered an outstanding product. I guess it was the best of both worlds while the audience was only listening to the albums. 

[JoeWhip]

As for the Pearl Jam recordings, there are some engineers who like to take the master digital, play it to tape and then redigitize the tape. Sound Liaison has done this but they do tell you up front. An artistic decision that as fine with. The recordings do sound mightily fine.

[botrytis]

1 minute ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

In a way, MoFi was doing what CNN and Fox News do. Catering to its audience, even if the company knows better. If MoFi said it used digital, the audience would’ve rejected it, even though the end result was better. MoFi told the audience what it wanted to hear, and delivered an outstanding product. I guess it was the best of both worlds while the audience was only listening to the albums. 

The audience won't now because it impunes their religious beliefs, that analog is superior to digital. To me, it depends.

[JoeWhip]

If you loved the sound of the MoFi before you heard the news. What are the damages exactly. You purchased a rekerd and got a rekerd, not an orange.

[The Computer Audiophile]

To quote @Jud from another thread, I think a civil version of this will play a role as well …

 

On 7/14/2022 at 10:16 PM, Jud said:

rich guys losing money they can afford don't rank high on regulators' or prosecutors' priority lists

 

[JoeWhip]

So true.

[PeterG]

21 minutes ago, JoeWhip said:

I posted this elsewhere but thought it appropriate to post it here as well. My view on the viability of a class action lawsuit against MoFi.

 

I will have to read the complaint, but as a retired trial lawyer who worked cases in federal court and one in the Supreme Court, there are many issues here. The biggest is class certification because without it, I do not see these two lead plaintiffs meeting the $75,000 threshold for diversity, even considering the possibility of punitive damages. With the claims based on state law, I could see a federal judge interpreting things narrowly and kicking the case out To be dealt with at the state court level. I have known a couple federal judges who would be loathe to have this type of case in the federal system, with state court remedies available. Without class certification, I just do not see this case staying in federal court. Then you have the issue of fraud and damages. Now consumer protection laws are not my area of expertise, but is the undisclosed digital step amount to legal fraud? You are still buying a record in all likelihood a great sounding one. If it can be proven that the DSD transfer is transparent to the master, what is the injury? For people who buy these one steps in part as an investment vs. actual use, that may be a bit too speculative for the court to consider. I am not even sure that the purposes of these laws is to protect that interest. Finally, my experience with class action lawsuits is that the only winners are the lawyers, on both sides. The actual plaintiffs get very little. Given all these considerations, would audiophiles like to see MoFi and Music Direct driven out of business so that a few lawyers get to make a killing? For these reasons, I do not really see this case going anywhere. But, I could be wrong.

 

Thanks, counselor.  Another question for Judge Joe--if a mint MoFi album sells for more on Discogs today than customers paid when the album was released, were customers harmed?

[The Computer Audiophile]

Just now, PeterG said:

 

Thanks, counselor.  Another question for Judge Joe--if a mint MoFi album sells for more on Discogs today than customers paid when the album was released, were customers harmed?

Their egos were harmed, pocketbooks unharmed. 

[One and a half]

I really enjoy MOFI product over many years and will do so in the future. In manufacturing an LP, the result that ends up on the record is music, does it really matter where the source came from, analog or digital? A court can decide it’s only music, then there’s the debate on which is better, please. MOFI try to use original masters, but these are now in such a poor condition, it’s more a restoration process.

Master tapes played back on high resolution AD converters contain for example tape hiss, who wants to listen to that, and a lot of magnetic tape can drop out due to shedding of the material, without digital techniques of filling in drop outs, how to do this with ageing tape recorders, good luck with that. 

 

This case looks like bruised ego, and a chance to donate many millions to lawyers, end result is? We still have the physical product, it plays, it’s better than AM OR FM radio, even better than originally released, so where’s the bitch here.

 

Storm in a tea cup.

[The Computer Audiophile]

If anything, I’d say calling it one-step is kind of comical. I see multiple steps being advertised, even before the kerfuffle. 

[sphinxsix]

4 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

This happens all the time, however it isn’t as cut and dry as your example. 

Sure but it doesn't mean that it should. It does happen because no-one sues companies for such practices. 

Like I said, if a product label says "ham", there should be ham inside, not tuna, if it says "real leather"  the shoes should be made of it not of plastic, otherwise there is an obvious reason for suing the producer. Why should music be a 'worse' product than ham or a pair of shoes.?

I'm personally very glad those guys have sued MoFi, maybe not only MoFi but also others will think twice before they do similar thing in the future.

 

4 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I think the real issue is that it strikes at the heart of the analog community. I’m not saying this in any negative way. This community has believed for years that AAA is the best way. Now it must question what it once believed. 

Agree. This must have hurt 😎

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

20 minutes ago, sphinxsix said:

Sure but it doesn't mean that it should. It does happen because no-one sues companies for such practices. 

Like I said, if a product label says "ham", there should be ham inside, not tuna, if it says "real leather"  the shoes should be made of it not of plastic, otherwise there is an obvious reason for suing the producer. Why should music be a 'worse' product than ham or a pair of shoes.?

I'm personally very glad those guys have sued MoFi, maybe not only MoFi but also others will think twice before they do similar thing in the future.

 

Agree. This must have hurt 😎

 

Honest question, did MoFi explicitly say no digital was used in the process?

[sphinxsix]

39 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Honest question, did MoFi explicitly say no digital was used in the process?

AFAIK they claimed the source of the mentioned LPs were original master tapes.

(I linked to The Washington Post article earlier).

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

14 minutes ago, sphinxsix said:

AFAIK they claimed the source of the mentioned LPs were original master tapes.

(I linked to The Washington Post article earlier).

 

The ultimate source has to be the master tape, as that’s what all subsequent tapes or records or digital comes from 🙂

[Account Closed]

This whole nonsense boils down to process not outcome. There is the advertised music on the vinyl. The music came from the master tape. The music sounds great. No issue here. It would be like someone being offended if a product was supposedly "hand made" and then finding out that a machine had to be used in one step.

[musicjunkie917]

2 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

If anything, I’d say calling it one-step is kind of comical. I see multiple steps being advertised, even before the kerfuffle. 

 

It's called  "One-Step" because the vinyl the consumer ends up with is only "one step" from the lacquer instead of three steps.....

[The Computer Audiophile]

3 minutes ago, bobflood said:

This whole nonsense boils down to process not outcome. There is the advertised music on the vinyl. The music came from the master tape. The music sounds great. No issue here. It would be like someone being offended if a product was supposedly "hand made" and then finding out that a machine had to be used in one step.

Agree. This makes the injury for plaintiffs very hard to quantify. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Just now, musicjunkie917 said:

 

It's called  "One-Step" because the vinyl thew consumer ends up with is only "one step" from the lacquer instead of three steps.....

Ah. Nice. At least that’s still true. 

[sphinxsix]

17 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

The ultimate source has to be the master tape, as that’s what all subsequent tapes or records or digital comes from 🙂

Why do I know your replies before you reply.? 😂

 

But you are wrong..

the ultimate source is..

Big Bang.

 

😎

[The Computer Audiophile]

Just now, sphinxsix said:

Why do I know your replies before you reply.? 😂

 

But you are wrong..

the ultimate source is..

Big Bang.

 

😎

Ha!