Rexp Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 27 minutes ago, Axiom05 said: Tony Faulkner made some great recordings, he was a talented recording engineer. His views on recording formats were more controversial and, as I see it, not exactly based on a firm knowledge of the technology. He could make a great sounding recording regardless of the format used. Do you by chance have access to the recording above, do you think it sounds great? Link to comment
Mike Rubin Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 52 minutes ago, Rt66indierock said: It might look that way to someone not well versed in American Law. But the plaintiffs must show they are reasonable consumers. As I noted earlier this will prove difficult. I don't know where the lawsuit was filed, but, in the Ninth Circuit, when applying California state law, the standard is what the reasonable targeted consumer believes after seeing the representation in question. By that standard, what audiophiles think about the representations is indeed the relevant calculus. Obviously, the analysis might be different in other jurisdictions, but, were I a plaintiff's class action attorney looking at filing a lawsuit against a company advertising and selling nationwide, I would pick among the many potential forums very carefully. Living room: Synology 218+ NAS > NUC 10 i7 > HQP Embedded > xfinity Xfi Router > Netgear GS348 Switch > Sonore Optical Module Deluxe > Sonore Signature Rendu SE Optical Tier 2 > Okto DAC 8 Stereo > Topping Pre90 Preamp > Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini > Revel F32 Concertas Computer Desk System: Synology DS-218+ NAS > Dell XPS 8930/NUC 10 i7 > HQP Desktop > xfinity Xfi Router > EtherRegen > ultraRendu > Topping D90 DAC > Audioengine A5+'s Link to comment
Popular Post PeterG Posted August 12, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted August 12, 2022 1 hour ago, Samuel T Cogley said: I suppose the lawsuit will determine how "dishonest" they were. The gullibility of consumers is also in play here. Stuff like this does not go to trial. It will settle with MoFi offering returns and/or store credits, plus legal fees. But really...if they offered full refunds if original purchasers shipped vinyl back, would many take it? Unlikely--these are magnificent albums in both music and sound quality. Your replacement copy of Kind of Blue will not sound as good Mike Rubin and daverich4 2 Link to comment
sphinxsix Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 1 hour ago, Rt66indierock said: It might look that way to someone not well versed in American Law. But the plaintiffs must show they are reasonable consumers. Sorry guys but for me someone who's buying an AAA LP and expects all 3 production stages to be analogue is a quite reasonable person. He wouldn't be one if he was buying eg an AAD vinyl but I guess there may be something wrong with this logic at least according to American law.. 😎 Rexp 1 Link to comment
sphinxsix Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 8 minutes ago, PeterG said: But really...if they offered full refunds if original purchasers shipped vinyl back, would many take it? Unlikely--these are magnificent albums in both music and sound quality. Don't forget that there are most probably many guys who believe that digital is the Antichrist of audio among them.. ;-) Link to comment
Rexp Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 19 minutes ago, sphinxsix said: Sorry guys but for me someone who's buying an AAA LP and expects all 3 production stages to be analogue is a quite reasonable person. He wouldn't be one if he was buying eg an AAD vinyl but I guess there may be something wrong with this logic at least according to American law.. 😎 So you switched to the Good side, well done! sphinxsix 1 Link to comment
sphinxsix Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 12 minutes ago, Rexp said: So you switched to the Good side, well done! Don't draw too far-reaching conclusions! Link to comment
Popular Post Samuel T Cogley Posted August 12, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted August 12, 2022 1 hour ago, PeterG said: Stuff like this does not go to trial. It will settle with MoFi offering returns and/or store credits, plus legal fees. But really...if they offered full refunds if original purchasers shipped vinyl back, would many take it? Unlikely--these are magnificent albums in both music and sound quality. Your replacement copy of Kind of Blue will not sound as good To me, the bigger takeaway from the whole thing is that people will hopefully begin to understand how valuable the master tape for Kind of Blue is (for example) and how unrealistic it is to expect regular "revisits" to vintage master tapes in general for perpetual better sounding "audiophile" versions into the sales pipeline. At some point, and we're likely already there on many titles, the last digital capture will become the de facto master. I say again I'd love to hear some of those DSD256 captures that MoFi worked from. I'll bet the blow the vinyl out of the water! 😎 PeterG, Account Closed, AudioDoctor and 4 others 6 1 Link to comment
Axiom05 Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 10 hours ago, Rexp said: Do you by chance have access to the recording above, do you think it sounds great? Sorry, I am not familiar with that recording. It appears to be a soundtrack from a movie and that is a whole different can of worms. Soundtracks are often recorded under completely different conditions than a standard album. My guess is that would probably not be a good example of what Tony Faulkner was capable of. Main System: [Synology DS216, Rpi-4b LMS (pCP)], Holo Audio Red, Ayre QX-5 Twenty, Ayre KX-5 Twenty, Ayre VX-5 Twenty, Revel Ultima Studio2, Iconoclast speaker cables & interconnects, RealTraps acoustic treatments Living Room: Sonore ultraRendu, Ayre QB-9DSD, Simaudio MOON 340iX, B&W 802 Diamond Link to comment
Rt66indierock Posted August 12, 2022 Author Share Posted August 12, 2022 16 hours ago, Mike Rubin said: I don't know where the lawsuit was filed, but, in the Ninth Circuit, when applying California state law, the standard is what the reasonable targeted consumer believes after seeing the representation in question. By that standard, what audiophiles think about the representations is indeed the relevant calculus. Obviously, the analysis might be different in other jurisdictions, but, were I a plaintiff's class action attorney looking at filing a lawsuit against a company advertising and selling nationwide, I would pick among the many potential forums very carefully. Mike, you haven’t read Moore v Traders Joe’s, 9th Circuit 2021 from an objective viewpoint. Was a significant portion market misled by Mobile Fidelities claims? If we learned anything from the MQA debate it is there are a lot people who doubt the providence of master tapes. Link to comment
Popular Post Rt66indierock Posted August 12, 2022 Author Popular Post Share Posted August 12, 2022 21 hours ago, sphinxsix said: Sorry guys but for me someone who's buying an AAA LP and expects all 3 production stages to be analogue is a quite reasonable person. He wouldn't be one if he was buying eg an AAD vinyl but I guess there may be something wrong with this logic at least according to American law.. 😎 Time to air some common knowledge about reasonable consumers. Record labels are not trusted. The MQA debate exposed that providence or authenticity of master recordings is not documented well enough to rely on. Examples In the complaint The Doobie Brothers Captain and Me is cited and I doubt the original master was used. I might believe a late 70’s or early 80’s remaster. Warner routinely discarded original masters after reissues and remastering. Workingman’s Dead and American Beauty were remastered by Mickey Hart and the original tapes were thrown away. Priceless American heritage lost forever. The Nightfly by Donald Fagan was recorded in a digital format and the MOFI albums say Original Master Recording. Maybe it was but we can be sure? It was obvious MQA Ltd used a different master when they processed it. Every reasonable consumer of limited release vinyl albums has reason to doubt any claim of an all-analog chain. Your example will be shown to be unreasonable. Samuel T Cogley and botrytis 2 Link to comment
Samuel T Cogley Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 3 minutes ago, Rt66indierock said: The MQA debate exposed that providence or authenticity of master recordings is not documented well enough to rely on. +100! And look at the way HDTracks avoids any discussions of provenance like the plague! botrytis 1 Link to comment
Popular Post Josh Mound Posted August 13, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted August 13, 2022 I’m generally a defender of lawyers against easy jokes, but this lawsuit seems silly. Bankrupting MoFi will lead to fewer audiophile releases and will be bad news for audiophiles. Was MoFi somewhat dishonest? Sure. But it seems they’re offering refunds. Anyone not satisfied with that is only dissatisfied because the pressings are worth far more than retail price, which should tell us something about the quality of the release, digital step or no. botrytis, Axiom05, The Computer Audiophile and 1 other 3 1 🔊 The Best Version Of... 🎧 Link to comment
Popular Post firedog Posted August 13, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted August 13, 2022 They are offering refunds, so it's hard to see the point of the suit and what possible damages could be awarded. If they are worth more on the secondary market than the original price, it seems like a claim of damages/harm by the purchasers is not very strong. The Computer Audiophile, PeterG, sphinxsix and 2 others 5 Main listening (small home office): Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments. Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three . Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup. Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. All absolute statements about audio are false Link to comment
sphinxsix Posted August 13, 2022 Share Posted August 13, 2022 16 hours ago, Rt66indierock said: Time to air some common knowledge about reasonable consumers. Record labels are not trusted. The MQA debate exposed that providence or authenticity of master recordings is not documented well enough to rely on. Examples In the complaint The Doobie Brothers Captain and Me is cited and I doubt the original master was used. I might believe a late 70’s or early 80’s remaster. Warner routinely discarded original masters after reissues and remastering. Workingman’s Dead and American Beauty were remastered by Mickey Hart and the original tapes were thrown away. Priceless American heritage lost forever. The Nightfly by Donald Fagan was recorded in a digital format and the MOFI albums say Original Master Recording. Maybe it was but we can be sure? It was obvious MQA Ltd used a different master when they processed it. Every reasonable consumer of limited release vinyl albums has reason to doubt any claim of an all-analog chain. Your example will be shown to be unreasonable. I hear you. What I mean is that a customer who buys a canned ham and expects ham inside the can (not eg a tuna or bs) for me is a reasonable customer. Same with music material described as eg AAA or Original Master Recording. From my point of view customer buying an LP isn't obliged to know about eg the whole MQA debate or companies problems or cheating practices as far as eg original master tapes are regarded. OTOH a company is obliged to deliver what they promise to deliver on the product label or anywhere else (eg ham, not tuna or original master AAA LP not a DAA one). It's as simple as that. :-) Mike Rubin 1 Link to comment
sphinxsix Posted August 13, 2022 Share Posted August 13, 2022 7 hours ago, firedog said: They are offering refunds, so it's hard to see the point of the suit and what possible damages could be awarded. If they are worth more on the secondary market than the original price, it seems like a claim of damages/harm by the purchasers is not very strong. +1 Didn't read it earlier. Seems that MoFi itself didn't regard their customers objections as ..unreasonable :-) Link to comment
PeterG Posted August 13, 2022 Share Posted August 13, 2022 1 hour ago, sphinxsix said: +1 Didn't read it earlier. Seems that MoFi itself didn't regard their customers objections as ..unreasonable :-) Or they are calling the complainers' bluff 😉 Still waiting to hear a person say they've found better sounding vinyl... Link to comment
sphinxsix Posted August 13, 2022 Share Posted August 13, 2022 More details: Washingtonpost-mofi-records-analog-digital-scandal 28 minutes ago, PeterG said: Still waiting to hear a person say they've found better sounding vinyl... I'm not into vinyl, as for digital, I prefer AP. Link to comment
Rexp Posted August 14, 2022 Share Posted August 14, 2022 11 hours ago, PeterG said: 😉 Still waiting to hear a person say they've found better sounding vinyl... Oh dear, you didn't watch the YT review of Kind of Blue I posted 🖕 Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted August 14, 2022 Share Posted August 14, 2022 9 hours ago, Rexp said: Oh dear, you didn't watch the YT review of Kind of Blue I posted 🖕 This is your one warning. Next time you’re banned. Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Popular Post The Computer Audiophile Posted August 14, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted August 14, 2022 This is a first world problem of the highest order. MoFi produced the best sounding versions of albums, ever made (according to MF), people love(d) them. When they find out the albums were created in a way at odds with the marketing, they want damages. I’m struggling to see the harm / damage done, other than to egos. Count me out of the group of people who sue companies, not based on harm, but based on marketing claims that weren’t 100% literal truth. If the albums were marketed to cure hearing damage and they caused additional damage, then I get it. This just isn’t the case here. Consumers actually benefitted. Unless, they are collectors of AAA vinyl for no other purpose than it being AAA vinyl. Gonzbull and botrytis 2 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted August 14, 2022 Share Posted August 14, 2022 Perhaps there’s a positive side to this MoFi kerfuffle. People should now understand the benefits and quality of digital audio. I know it’s like pushing a kid down a hill on his bike, but some of us learned the hard/forced way. Vinyl lovers have now learned, through no fault or effort of their own, that digital is good. I’d spend $100 on the same MoFi package if it contained a USB stick of the DSD256 album, rather than the plastic disc. Sell these in limited quantities if that’s all the record label will license. Printing a digital file onto a piece of plastic and dragging a needle over it, absolutely can’t increase accuracy. P.S. I wonder what the hipsters who collect vinyl would think if it was called plastic. I fear the connotation would be too much to handle :~) botrytis 1 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Popular Post DuckToller Posted August 14, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted August 14, 2022 2 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said: Perhaps there’s a positive side to this MoFi kerfuffle. People should now understand the benefits and quality of digital audio. I know it’s like pushing a kid down a hill on his bike, but some of us learned the hard/forced way. Vinyl lovers have now learned, through no fault or effort of their own, that digital is good. I’d spend $100 on the same MoFi package if it contained a USB stick of the DSD256 album, rather than the plastic disc. Sell these in limited quantities if that’s all the record label will license. Printing a digital file onto a piece of plastic and dragging a needle over it, absolutely can’t increase accuracy. P.S. I wonder what the hipsters who collect vinyl would think if it was called plastic. I fear the connotation would be too much to handle :~) Fremer is watching you!!! 🥸 Edit: Was a framer before ... The Computer Audiophile and botrytis 2 Link to comment
Popular Post sphinxsix Posted August 14, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted August 14, 2022 13 minutes ago, DuckToller said: Framer is watching you!!! 🥸 No, Fremer is too busy with aligning his gramophone cartridges to get the best analogue sound out of many possible ones and also with convincing people that those MoFi LPs used analogue masters cause that's what he heard (from his pals, that is..). botrytis and PYP 2 Link to comment
JoeWhip Posted August 14, 2022 Share Posted August 14, 2022 Fremer does have a very thin skin. botrytis 1 Link to comment
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