I’m afraid of USB!

[sandyk]

1 hour ago, AnotherSpin said:

 

That was funny. Did I ever said this?

 

Quote

It seems to me that the transmission of sound through an optical cable with the well suited DAC can produce more satisfactory sound than using the usb format. 

I have yet to hear Toslink sound as good  as a quality Coax SPDIF cable where isolation transformers are used for the Coax connection at both ends and 75 ohm BNC connectors are used at both  ends as well .

[Blake]

3 hours ago, Kal Rubinson said:

.........................and/or multichannel.

 

Seriously, who cares about multichannel?  You and about ten other people in the world.

 

[fas42]

5 hours ago, AnotherSpin said:

 

It seems to me that the transmission of sound through an optical cable with the well suited DAC can produce more satisfactory sound than using the usb format. 

 

Must say, from my first experience with using a cheap as chips Toslink optical, that it doesn't appear to be a weak link - so far haven't found it it to be a bottleneck to the SQ.

[Account Closed]

Sorry to say this, but this whole thread seems silly to me. SPDIF is 40 year old tech that was put on early CD players for testing purposes at a time when there were no stand alone DACs. It has so many limitations that it is near useless in this day of high rate up-sampling and the clock signal is co-mingled with the program material. USB while not perfect is far superior and much more versatile. It is fairly easy using any number of available products to correct any shortcomings it has.

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

4 hours ago, bobflood said:

Sorry to say this, but this whole thread seems silly to me. SPDIF is 40 year old tech that was put on early CD players for testing purposes at a time when there were no stand alone DACs. It has so many limitations that it is near useless in this day of high rate up-sampling and the clock signal is co-mingled with the program material. USB while not perfect is far superior and much more versatile. It is fairly easy using any number of available products to correct any shortcomings it has.

 

If that were the case you would not need to be posting this here (and everyone would be convinced).

 

Unfortunately, all connections offer serious limitations and there is no perfect solution available today. No manufacturer, to my knowledge, claims to have solved any of this. 

[AnotherSpin]

5 hours ago, bobflood said:

Sorry to say this, but this whole thread seems silly to me. SPDIF is 40 year old tech that was put on early CD players for testing purposes at a time when there were no stand alone DACs. It has so many limitations that it is near useless in this day of high rate up-sampling and the clock signal is co-mingled with the program material. USB while not perfect is far superior and much more versatile. It is fairly easy using any number of available products to correct any shortcomings it has.

The development of audio is going in a strange way. Solid state technology was aimed to sound as good as a previous one based on tubes. Compact discs supposedly sounded no worse than vinyl LPs. Now, streaming should deliver the sound on par with  previous formats. And so on. We put ourselves to sleep with dreams of progress, but In a strange way, we give up the best in favor of the worst, and then try to bring the worst to the acceptable level. Well, this is not just about audio.

[AnotherSpin]

8 hours ago, sandyk said:

I have yet to hear Toslink sound as good  as a quality Coax SPDIF cable where isolation transformers are used for the Coax connection at both ends and 75 ohm BNC connectors are used at both  ends as well .

 

 

[LowOrbit]

16 hours ago, davide256 said:

USB and SPDIF are both wired solutions for sending digital data using analog (voltage) signaling. The difference is that USB is much faster because it has parallel signal leads

where as SPDIF data is serial. It is more susceptible to clocking issue anomalies than SPDIF but can also be more precise when clocking is done right.

 

 

 

To be pedantic (sorry) - USB is serial too. Universal Serial Bus. SPDIF sends the data in l/r frames and the dac uses the frame rate to derive the clock rate.

 

USB sends data in bursts at a fixed rate (24mhz iirc) and the dac buffers them. The sample rate is explicitly communicated in each burst. The clock renders the data into frames, reads out the buffer (again serial) into the decoding circuit and sound comes out the other end.

 

So the USB data clock should not matter at all - but many discover that it does.

[davide256]

1 hour ago, LowOrbit said:

 

To be pedantic (sorry) - USB is serial too. Universal Serial Bus. SPDIF sends the data in l/r frames and the dac uses the frame rate to derive the clock rate.

 

USB sends data in bursts at a fixed rate (24mhz iirc) and the dac buffers them. The sample rate is explicitly communicated in each burst. The clock renders the data into frames, reads out the buffer (again serial) into the decoding circuit and sound comes out the other end.

 

So the USB data clock should not matter at all - but many discover that it does.

So explain why  2 data paths D- D+ can be called serial?  Serial in my book means only  1 usable data path, all bits are sequential. if you have 2 or more data paths with clocking thats parallel data transmission.

[opus101]

D- and D+ are complementary (balanced) signals, meaning there's only a single bit being sent at a time, but with two polarities. This is to allow noise pick-up to be cancelled.

[photonman]

15 hours ago, AnotherSpin said:

 

It seems to me that the transmission of sound through an optical cable with the well suited DAC can produce more satisfactory sound than using the usb format. 

That has been my experience with using a Macbook as my streamer.  I have tried the USB output a few times and I always end up back with the Toslink out.  I would be curious how the USB output of a purpose built streamer such as the Zenith compares.  

[Kal Rubinson]

11 hours ago, Blake said:

Seriously, who cares about multichannel?  You and about ten other people in the world.

Seriously, that is not the issue. 

[d_elm]

USB-2 at 480 mbps can deliver all formats of audio but the cost is noise in the receiver and from the cable.  Cable shielding makes a difference, look at the Lush^2 and Lush^3 discussions for experiences.  I now have no USB in the signal path and am using AES/EBU into the DAC and would use optical, not Toslink (phase noise too high with cheap connector) if my DAC supported it.

[Martin Herløv Andersen]

The Zen has landed, but I can't see it as a roon endpoint, so no sound 😩

Maybe my dac's usb are not compatible with the zen

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

1 hour ago, d_elm said:

USB-2 at 480 mbps can deliver all formats of audio but the cost is noise in the receiver and from the cable.  Cable shielding makes a difference, look at the Lush^2 and Lush^3 discussions for experiences.  I now have no USB in the signal path and am using AES/EBU into the DAC and would use optical, not Toslink (phase noise too high with cheap connector) if my DAC supported it.

 

Noise is an issue with all interfaces. It is linked to a number of factors: not only the source, but also the decoding of the signal within the reciever, EMI/RF...

 

What is the impact of all these countermeasures/tweaks (cables, power supplies, etc...)? How close do they get us to "fidelity" ? 

 

Let's face it - we don't know what a perfectly transparent and accurate DAC sounds like! And even if we had one, there is all the rest of the system providing many opportunities to introduce noise and distortion. 

 

We probably have forgotten  what a good system should sound like.

 

Heck, I've even been told recently by someone that a 1950s track sounded bad in his system because the system was so transparent. The power of self-persuasion is very strong :) It is often so easy to believe that spending thousands of dollars is going to be the recipe for success. If you have the latest uber-expensuve gear, why should it sound bad? 

 

On the other hand, you have those who believe transparency to be a bad thing. Sigh... 

 

Can music be enjoyed regardless of all this? Certainly, but it could be even better (especially if you don't spend your time listening to "audiophile" recordings...). 

 

 

[Martin Herløv Andersen]

3 hours ago, Martin Herløv Andersen said:

The Zen has landed, but I can't see it as a roon endpoint, so no sound 😩

Maybe my dac's usb are not compatible with the zen

Fixed it, had to turn on the dac first, then from standby mode turn on the Zen.

 

Now when I am here. I want to give my initial expression of the sound.

 

The Zen alone as a roon endpoint sounds a little better than my miniDSP HD Studio, blacker background, voices are warmer.

After listen for an hour I just had to try the Innuos Phoenix USB Reclocker. Cold it sounded good, but after an hour it started to sound really good. It was almost analog, or so I tell my self. But the reclocker is the real star.

[Blake]

1 hour ago, Martin Herløv Andersen said:

But the reclocker is the real star.

 

I am not surprised this is your finding. That is usually the same conclusion others have when they conduct comparative listening experiments in there own home with quality "usb doohickeys" with an open mind.  

[botrytis]

People assume USB is bad with sighted listening. Do a blind test, it might surprise you. 

 

Your brain is biasing your listening against USB.

[fas42]

4 hours ago, hopkins said:

 

We probably have forgotten  what a good system should sound like.

 

Heck, I've even been told recently by someone that a 1950s track sounded bad in his system because the system was so transparent. The power of self-persuasion is very strong :) It is often so easy to believe that spending thousands of dollars is going to be the recipe for success. If you have the latest uber-expensuve gear, why should it sound bad? 

 

The disease of believing that an ambitious system makes "less than perfect" recordings sound worse is very common, I'm afraid - and lots of people live with the consequences of believing the more expensive the gear, the less has to be done to resolve the final issues with the system. Unfortunately, the converse is true - the greater the capability of the setup, the more that has to be done to optimise every area ... not doing so leads to severe shrinkage of the number of recordings that can be listened to just for the pleasure of it 🙂.

 

4 hours ago, hopkins said:

On the other hand, you have those who believe transparency to be a bad thing. Sigh... 

 

Can music be enjoyed regardless of all this? Certainly, but it could be even better (especially if you don't spend your time listening to "audiophile" recordings...). 

 

 

 

Trouble is that it's 'hard', still, to sort out audio playback to the point where every recording "works" - time, energy, focus are all necessary, with lots of frustration on the journey - the end result will be magnificent, so this makes the effort to get there always worthwhile.

[Blake]

41 minutes ago, botrytis said:

People assume USB is bad with sighted listening. Do a blind test, it might surprise you. 

 

Your brain is biasing your listening against USB.

 

Your brain is biasing you in favor of USB.  See how easy that is?  

 

P.S. I am not "anti" USB.  I use USB cables in my audio systems.  I have just found it can be improved.  

[Superdad]

On 11/25/2020 at 2:38 PM, Kal Rubinson said:

Totally safe and I prefer it.  Don't bother with any of those doohickeys...

I do seem to recall you enjoyed and recommended our original USB REGEN:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/uptone-audio-usb-regen
Just sayin’... 

[Martin Herløv Andersen]

33 minutes ago, Superdad said:

I do seem to recall you enjoyed and recommended our original USB REGEN:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/uptone-audio-usb-regen
Just sayin’... 

 

@Superdad have you compared the iso regen with a good reclocker? I don't have that possibility and I trust your ears, so spit it out (-:

[Kal Rubinson]

6 hours ago, Superdad said:

I do seem to recall you enjoyed and recommended our original USB REGEN:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/uptone-audio-usb-regen
Just sayin’... 

 

Guilty.  Here's the windup:

Quote

Because it's obviously built to a price, the U-DAC8 would be a likely candidate for some of the many devices offered to improve USB transmission or power supply; of the several such things I looked into, the first to arrive was UpTone Audio's USB Regen ($175)............................................................

......................I inserted it between my Mac mini (running Windows 7 via Apple's Boot Camp) and the U-DAC8;

 

Here's the pitch:

Quote

If it could work the same magic with higher-priced DACs such as my exaSound e28, the UpTone USB Regen, at $175, would qualify as a logical addition. But I don't yet know, because I lent the e28 to JA.

 

And here's the swing:

I stopped using the USB REGEN when the exaSound DAC returned to my system and I adopted the Baetis Prodigy (including the SoTM tX USBhubIN) as my source.  The insertion of the USB REGEN into that setup made no apparent difference.   

 

I do use it (thank you!) with the looooong Corning Optical USB cable to insert the missing 5V supply when necessary.  And I have no complaints about it in this application.  

 

So, I have no problems using add-ons (or doohickeys) when they are useful and effective but the climate here seems to deter USB users by implying that even a basic setup, regardless of what is on each end of the cable, demands several of them.  

[davide256]

 

 

19 hours ago, Martin Herløv Andersen said:

Fixed it, had to turn on the dac first, then from standby mode turn on the Zen.

 

Now when I am here. I want to give my initial expression of the sound.

 

The Zen alone as a roon endpoint sounds a little better than my miniDSP HD Studio, blacker background, voices are warmer.

After listen for an hour I just had to try the Innuos Phoenix USB Reclocker. Cold it sounded good, but after an hour it started to sound really good. It was almost analog, or so I tell my self. But the reclocker is the real star.

 The Zen's claim to fame is as a 1 box server/USB endpoint. I'll be curious as to what you think after using it that way with the built in innuOS playback software.

Should sound better than Roon because of hardware optimization.

[Superdad]

8 hours ago, Martin Herløv Andersen said:

@Superdad have you compared the iso regen with a good reclocker? I don't have that possibility and I trust your ears, so spit it out (-:

Sorry, but the premise of your question does not make sense because:

a) It is somewhat an abuse of the term “reclocker” in reference to hub-chip based USB devices (such as our original USB REGEN which began the trend, along with all the other manufacturer variants—some decent, some poor—such as W4S “Recovery Reclocker”, a half-dozen iFi Audio models, our own ISO REGEN, and now the $3K Innous Phoenix, which is still a simple hub chip plus an unspecified OCXO plus a Sean Jacobs power supply.

 

b) If you do mean the above category of devices, then it is not particularly fair to ask me for a comparison. The $310 ISO REGEN offers a galvanic isolator chip (the now out of production Silanna ICE08USB), 5 ultra-low-noise LT3042 voltage regulators, specially chosen MLCC capacitors on all power networks, a TI USB3.1 hub chip selected for its outstanding measured signal integrity, and a Crystek CCHD-575, which is about the lowest phase-noise production XO available (a low phase noise OCXO to beat it by a worthwhile amount costs $360+ in production quantities). And we make the device small enough to be attached directly to the DAC with just our included 45mm USPCB Adapter, thereby preserving pristine USB signal integrity and best impedance match.

Sure, we could easily design a ISO REGEN around an expensive OCXO and build in a nice LT3045-based power supply. But that would be boring to us. So any next USB device you see from UpTone won’t be hub chip based at all. We are working on a much more advanced means of both isolation and clocking.

c) If by “reclocker” you more properly mean a device that works with S/PDIF signals—thus actually having audio-sample-rate-related clocks (such as the excellent Mutec MC-3+ USB, or any of the other fine USB>S/PDIF converters out there), I’ll just say that S/PDIF is not my thing—and USB>USB devices are really not true “reclockers.”

 

To most directly answer your question though:

While I have over the years bought a few competitors’ USB devices for comparison (anyone want to buy my barely used original Intona, W4S Recovery, or iFi iGalvanic? Half of whatever retail was; PM me.), I have not personally compared the Innous Phoenix to our ISO RREGEN. We already know what incrementally better clocking and power sounds like. And as mentioned, when we innovate again in this space it will be with products that move beyond all prior efforts. Based on parts cost alone we already know it will have to be more expensive that our existing ISO REGEN, yet I promise to keep it affordable and highly competitive, just as we have always done. Would rather sell a few thousand of a reasonably priced product direct than a few hundred of something jacked up to include 40-50%+ dealer/distributor discounts.