I’m afraid of USB!

[Martin Herløv Andersen]

Before this turns into a real phobia I need some reassurance that USB is totally safe and not harmful in any way (-:

 

Let me explain. I am thinking about buying the Innous Zenith Mk3. It only has USB out. So what's the problem?

It started with me looking into USB cables and many of them are crazy expensive, then I read about how much better it will sound with the innuos phoenixusb reclocker.

So I started to think that USB is an inferior connection, that needs a lot of equipment to sound right.

And because the USB connection is asynchronous then the fancy phoenixusb reclocker will “only” deliver a clean USB signal to the DAC, but the DAC has to use its own internal clock.

 

Today I use S/PDIF and I never read about a S/PDIF enhancement devices.

 

So is USB safe and maybe a better connection type than S/PDIF?

[Kal Rubinson]

29 minutes ago, Martin Herløv Andersen said:

So is USB safe and maybe a better connection type than S/PDIF?

Totally safe and I prefer it.  Don't bother with any of those doohickeys.................................unless you discover a problem..

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

1 hour ago, Martin Herløv Andersen said:

It started with me looking into USB cables and many of them are crazy expensive, then I read about how much better it will sound with the innuos phoenixusb reclocker.

 

Reading professional reviews is a complete waste of time, and should be avoided :)

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

The best thing to do is to try the equipment yourself, or get the opinion of "trusted ears" (for example, someone you know and who has good judgement). You can purchase equipment, test it, and return it if you don't like it. 

 

If you do test it, I recommend challenging your own impressions using Arthur Salvatore's "levels of audible improvements". Those criteria you will never see used in reviews, unfortunately, but I find them extremely useful. Based on your assessment of the equipment using those criteria, you can then decide whether it is worth spending the asking price. 

 

https://www.high-endaudio.com/philos.html

 

Level 1- The sonic improvement can be subtly, though still consistently, heard when switching to the superior component (A/B). However, the reverse matching deterioration is not heard when switching back (B/A) to the inferior component.

 

Level 2- The sonic improvement can be heard when both switching components and then when switching back, but it is no longer specifically (or easily) heard after a short period of time; sometimes seconds, but almost always less than one minute.

 

Level 3- The sonic improvement can be heard at length, but an effort may be required to listen specifically for it, so it may not be "obvious" or inescapable. This improvement may or may not be significant; meaning there's a chance that an audiophile may be able to remove this improvement from their system and still not suffer from its absence.

 

Level 4- The sonic improvement can be heard all the time, and without any effort, by an audiophile. However, it's still actually possible for it to be not heard by ordinary listeners, meaning those people with no interest in sound quality. This improvement is still "significant"; so a serious audiophile will almost always suffer from its absence.

 

Level 5- The sonic improvement can be heard at all times by anyone with healthy hearing, including listeners with no interest in sound quality. The improvement is now always "significant"; meaning an audiophile can no longer enjoy their system without this specific improvement.

 

Level 6- The sonic improvement is "transformational"; meaning not only would it be completely unthinkable to live without it, but the improvement actually alters an audiophile's thinking and perspective on both their particular system and "Audio" in general.

[firedog]

2 hours ago, Martin Herløv Andersen said:

Before this turns into a real phobia I need some reassurance that USB is totally safe and not harmful in any way (-:

 

Let me explain. I am thinking about buying the Innous Zenith Mk3. It only has USB out. So what's the problem?

It started with me looking into USB cables and many of them are crazy expensive, then I read about how much better it will sound with the innuos phoenixusb reclocker.

So I started to think that USB is an inferior connection, that needs a lot of equipment to sound right.

And because the USB connection is asynchronous then the fancy phoenixusb reclocker will “only” deliver a clean USB signal to the DAC, but the DAC has to use its own internal clock.

 

Today I use S/PDIF and I never read about a S/PDIF enhancement devices.

 

So is USB safe and maybe a better connection type than S/PDIF?

There are S/PDIF enhancement devices....

 

USB is fine as long as your DAC has a well executed USB input. The Innuos will sound fine. Most modern DACs (last few years) have well done USB. If you have a DAC made before USB became a common audiophile input, maybe you could have an issue. What's your DAC?

 

Cable: just get a good one that you know meets spec. Some of those crazy expensive ones don't. Try Blue Jeans or Supra for some not crazy expensive ones. 

You can go crazy with all those USB add ons. Go without them and see if you like the SQ - I bet you will. 

[Jud]

2 hours ago, Martin Herløv Andersen said:

Before this turns into a real phobia I need some reassurance that USB is totally safe and not harmful in any way (-:

 

Let me explain. I am thinking about buying the Innous Zenith Mk3. It only has USB out. So what's the problem?

It started with me looking into USB cables and many of them are crazy expensive, then I read about how much better it will sound with the innuos phoenixusb reclocker.

So I started to think that USB is an inferior connection, that needs a lot of equipment to sound right.

And because the USB connection is asynchronous then the fancy phoenixusb reclocker will “only” deliver a clean USB signal to the DAC, but the DAC has to use its own internal clock.

 

Today I use S/PDIF and I never read about a S/PDIF enhancement devices.

 

So is USB safe and maybe a better connection type than S/PDIF?

When S/PDIF was the dominant digital input, there were plenty of crazy expensive S/PDIF cables and S/PDIF doohickeys. The fact you are seeing these for USB inputs now has nothing to do with how good USB is (it’s designed for lower jitter than S/PDIF in modern DACs, and has better bandwidth than Toslink IIRC), and everything to do with the fact that USB is now where the market is.

[opus101]

3 hours ago, Martin Herløv Andersen said:

So is USB safe and maybe a better connection type than S/PDIF?

 

If lowest jitter is your aim then yes, provided your DAC supports the async protocol. If freedom from noise conducted over interconnects is what you're after then USB in stock form is worse than S/PDIF as normally the latter is isolated via signal transformer. So - pick your poison.

[Kal Rubinson]

2 hours ago, hopkins said:

Reading professional reviews is a complete waste of time, and should be avoided :)

Are saying that amateur reviews are more reliable?  🙄

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

7 hours ago, Kal Rubinson said:

Are saying that amateur reviews are more reliable?  🙄

 

No, unfortunately a lot of other people have lost their minds as well! 

 

More seriously, I completely understand the OP's dilemna. When you read about all this, it is very difficult to get a sense of the "value" of any of these components. I don't find reviewers make it any easier for customers to decide.

 

 

[Kal Rubinson]

5 hours ago, hopkins said:

No, unfortunately a lot of other people have lost their minds as well! 

 

More seriously, I completely understand the OP's dilemna. When you read about all this, it is very difficult to get a sense of the "value" of any of these components. I don't find reviewers make it any easier for customers to decide.

I try.

[R1200CL]

I hope USB will be a dead format. 
 

Most do some sort of streaming today. Hence Ethernet interface should be the standard. Not USB. 
There exist many good DAC’s with god SPDIF or AES/EBU interface. 
 

Those DAC’s will benefit from an Ethernet to a SPDIF converter. Which isn’t many of around, and those good ones that exist is expensive. I’m hoping John Swenson will make one. 
 

I can see a limitation of SPDIF and AES/EBU, as 24/192 is max I think. 
 

I hope more DAC’s implement RJ45 or SFP / SPF+ interfaces. I think that’s the future. 
 

I think Lumin is the only one so far that has implemented a SFP port.

 

Fiber interfaces seems to be superior, and since no other formats than Ethernet supports fiber, Ethernet SFP is what I think we should request from manufacturers.

 

There is said high speed internet (10GB) is pr definition jitter free. And since fiber, no ground loops or any earthing issues. 

[Kal Rubinson]

1 hour ago, R1200CL said:

I hope USB will be a dead format. 

Only when there's better.

1 hour ago, R1200CL said:

There exist many good DAC’s with god SPDIF or AES/EBU interface. 
Those DAC’s will benefit from an Ethernet to a SPDIF converter. Which isn’t many of around, and those good ones that exist is expensive. I’m hoping John Swenson will make one. 

I can see a limitation of SPDIF and AES/EBU, as 24/192 is max I think. 

Neither S/PDIF nor AES/EBU can do multichannel.

1 hour ago, R1200CL said:

I hope more DAC’s implement RJ45 or SFP / SPF+ interfaces. I think that’s the future. 

Amen.  👍

[botrytis]

It will be Thunderbolt as the next version.

 

Apple had a digital output IS400 but it never went any where.

[Kal Rubinson]

5 minutes ago, botrytis said:

Apple had a digital output IS400 but it never went any where.

In my personal experience, nothing from Apple ever went anywhere..........................except for iPad/iPhone as remote controls.

[Martin Herløv Andersen]

Thanks for making me a little wiser.

 

I have arranged with my hifi dealer that I can have the Zen and the phoenixusb reclocker from Saturday at 15:00 to Tuesday morning.

Really looking forward to it 🥰

 

Will keep you updated.

[tgb]

22 hours ago, Martin Herløv Andersen said:

I have arranged with my hifi dealer that I can have the Zen and the phoenixusb reclocker from Saturday at 15:00 to Tuesday morning.

Really looking forward to it 🥰

Cool your dealer !

 

You read the thread about the Phoenix ?

You'll see : more important than the Zen => the Phoenix.

You could have a try & put the Phoenix between your computer & your DAC, and you'll see that SQ will not be far from the Zen as a server.

You'll see how reclocking is key in this process.

Have a nice WE & tests !

[tgb]

hi R1200CL,

On 11/26/2020 at 5:29 PM, R1200CL said:

Most do some sort of streaming today. Hence Ethernet interface should be the standard. Not USB. 

I don't agree. This is not what I experienced :

1. I use a Corning USB optical cable (see dedicated threa about it) : easy to implement, great SQ. You just need a very good LPS.

2. I modded a Buffalo switch (triple external LPS : 1 / 1.5 / 3.3VDC) : not as good as this USB optical cable (no-modded).

To enhance the SQ with Buffalo, I'd need to change the clock with a PinkFaun... Why not but :

- expensive

- the setup would be based on UPNP, thus much less ergonomic than using a basic laptop in combination with the Corning

On 11/26/2020 at 5:29 PM, R1200CL said:

I can see a limitation of SPDIF and AES/EBU, as 24/192 is max I think. 

Is it really a limitation ?

24/192 is fine regarding the amount of data available. No !?

From 16/44 to 24/192 to "above", you can have "improvements", but minor.

Big improvements are on the hardware : clocks / PS.

 

On 11/26/2020 at 5:29 PM, R1200CL said:

There is said high speed internet (10GB) is pr definition jitter free. And since fiber, no ground loops or any earthing issues. 

You're right.

I have a 1Gb fiber network at home. You too ? 1Gb or 10Gb ?

Amazing to see that the market if moving so slowly from RJ45 to SFP...

 

But why do you stand that 10Gb Eth is "per def." jitter-free ? What's the technical explanation ?

Although I like the optical network because it cuts the noise etc...

I have to admit it has a big issue : look at FMCs / switches => crap clocks !

"Crap" is too much but let's say that no quality there, no state-of-the-art clocking.

In SPF/SPF+ switches you have 4pins clock (good point), but what about the PS of these clock ?

In 1Gb FMC it's even worse : no 4pins clock but basic quartz (with caps etc) ; and like always, PS at 5V or above when the PCB works at 3.3V (or less), and basic regulators in between to go from 5 to 3.3VDC for inst.

So, ok... I agree... optical Eth is cool vs the noise, but then the clocking/reclocking is so basic... that you end up to the same issue like the Buffalo => you need to modd & add a top-notch clock (like Pinkfaun / NewClassD etc...)

 

But if you say that 10G will solve that clock issue on the 1Gb optical Eth : cool ! But I need explanations ! ;-)

Rgds

 

[davide256]

On 11/25/2020 at 5:07 PM, Martin Herløv Andersen said:

Before this turns into a real phobia I need some reassurance that USB is totally safe and not harmful in any way (-:

 

Let me explain. I am thinking about buying the Innous Zenith Mk3. It only has USB out. So what's the problem?

It started with me looking into USB cables and many of them are crazy expensive, then I read about how much better it will sound with the innuos phoenixusb reclocker.

So I started to think that USB is an inferior connection, that needs a lot of equipment to sound right.

And because the USB connection is asynchronous then the fancy phoenixusb reclocker will “only” deliver a clean USB signal to the DAC, but the DAC has to use its own internal clock.

 

Today I use S/PDIF and I never read about a S/PDIF enhancement devices.

 

So is USB safe and maybe a better connection type than S/PDIF?

USB and SPDIF are both wired solutions for sending digital data using analog (voltage) signaling. The difference is that USB is much faster because it has parallel signal leads

where as SPDIF data is serial. It is more susceptible to clocking issue anomalies than SPDIF but can also be more precise when clocking is done right.

 

It's hard to go wrong with the Zen Mk III  for sound quality and USB out if you accompany it with a good DAC. The Phoenix reclocker is their Statement level product for maximum

USB performance... for many of us while it would yield a result, that money spent elsewhere will make a greater difference.

[sandyk]

On 11/26/2020 at 9:38 AM, Kal Rubinson said:

Totally safe and I prefer it.  Don't bother with any of those doohickeys.................................unless you discover a problem..

That's funny coming from someone who uses a USB doohickey to control volume .😉

[Kal Rubinson]

Just now, sandyk said:

That's funny coming from someone who uses a USB doohickey to control volume .😉

Yes but it is not in the signal path.  😎

[AnotherSpin]

On 11/26/2020 at 12:07 AM, Martin Herløv Andersen said:

Before this turns into a real phobia I need some reassurance that USB is totally safe and not harmful in any way (-:

 

Let me explain. I am thinking about buying the Innous Zenith Mk3. It only has USB out. So what's the problem?

It started with me looking into USB cables and many of them are crazy expensive, then I read about how much better it will sound with the innuos phoenixusb reclocker.

So I started to think that USB is an inferior connection, that needs a lot of equipment to sound right.

And because the USB connection is asynchronous then the fancy phoenixusb reclocker will “only” deliver a clean USB signal to the DAC, but the DAC has to use its own internal clock.

 

Today I use S/PDIF and I never read about a S/PDIF enhancement devices.

 

So is USB safe and maybe a better connection type than S/PDIF?

 

It seems to me that the transmission of sound through an optical cable with the well suited DAC can produce more satisfactory sound than using the usb format. 

[kennyb123]

On 11/25/2020 at 2:07 PM, Martin Herløv Andersen said:

Before this turns into a real phobia I need some reassurance that USB is totally safe and not harmful in any way (-:

 

Let me explain. I am thinking about buying the Innous Zenith Mk3. It only has USB out. So what's the problem?

It started with me looking into USB cables and many of them are crazy expensive, then I read about how much better it will sound with the innuos phoenixusb reclocker.

So I started to think that USB is an inferior connection, that needs a lot of equipment to sound right.

And because the USB connection is asynchronous then the fancy phoenixusb reclocker will “only” deliver a clean USB signal to the DAC, but the DAC has to use its own internal clock.

 

Today I use S/PDIF and I never read about a S/PDIF enhancement devices.

 

So is USB safe and maybe a better connection type than S/PDIF?

I have been delighted with my Zenith Mk3.  I will say though that it can greatly benefit from a really good USB cable.  The Shunyata Sigma is something you could not pry out of my dead hands but I hear the Sablon USB comes awfully close for a lot less money.

 

I also use a S/PDIF enhancement device (OPTO DX) and have owned several over the years.  @Judis exactly correct in his post above.

 

We like to think of these as digital interfaces, but it is still an analog signal that travels through these cables.  Signal fidelity matters just as much regardless of whether it is an analog or digital cable.

[sandyk]

1 hour ago, AnotherSpin said:

Today I use S/PDIF and I never read about a S/PDIF enhancement devices.

 Unless you need DSD etc. , well implemented Coax SPDIF will easily outperform USB  unless you spend a lot more on expensive aftermarket USB cables, Iso Regens with low noise PSUs . etc..

USB is also greatly affected by capacitance to mains earth, which is why a battery sourced supply for Regens etc. may further improve on an external low noise Linear PSU.

 By well implemented Coax SPDIF, I mean the use of isolation transformers at both ends, which cheaper implementations do not normally  have, or a good internal soundcard with Coax SPDIF out . The much more expensive Glass Toslink cables will also outperform normal Toslink cables.

Even my old Musical Fidelity X-DAC V3 has good quality internal SPDIF transformers, whereas many more recent DACs have been hobbled by  the "Beancounters" 

 

[Kal Rubinson]

33 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 Unless you need DSD etc. ,.........................

.........................and/or multichannel.

[AnotherSpin]

1 hour ago, sandyk said:

 Unless you need DSD etc. , well implemented Coax SPDIF will easily outperform USB  unless you spend a lot more on expensive aftermarket USB cables, Iso Regens with low noise PSUs . etc..

USB is also greatly affected by capacitance to mains earth, which is why a battery sourced supply for Regens etc. may further improve on an external low noise Linear PSU.

 By well implemented Coax SPDIF, I mean the use of isolation transformers at both ends, which cheaper implementations do not normally  have, or a good internal soundcard with Coax SPDIF out . The much more expensive Glass Toslink cables will also outperform normal Toslink cables.

Even my old Musical Fidelity X-DAC V3 has good quality internal SPDIF transformers, whereas many more recent DACs have been hobbled by  the "Beancounters" 

 

 

That was funny. Did I ever said this?