Is there any high end DAC that can sound as good as turntable ($10,000 budget for each)

[quanghuy147]

Hello, 

I currently have a DAC and streamer setup which cost about $3000. Recently, I bought a turntable with phono preamp, which cost $600. 

 

I compared the sound by some familiar songs and found that the turntable combo sound 90% detailed as the DAC combo but it is more emotional, involving and better soundstage. The only problem with this turntable option is that I don't have LPs and I don't want to spend $$$$ to build an LP library that can make me happy as I am now with Tidal. 

 

I have a friend, he is a fan of turntables and recently switched to Reel to reel. He also has a Wavelength DAC cost $3000 but he said there was a big gap between his digital and his analog sources. 

 

My question is if there is any higher end DAC and streamer combo  that can beat turntable and phono preamp combo (let's say the budget for each combo is $10,000)?  Or there is always something that is limited only to analog sources like turntables, reel to reel and this makes no DAC can replace them?

 

Thank you.

Huy

 

[firedog]

1 hour ago, quanghuy147 said:

Hello, 

I currently have a DAC and streamer setup which cost about $3000. Recently, I bought a turntable with phono preamp, which cost $600. 

 

I compared the sound by some familiar songs and found that the turntable combo sound 90% detailed as the DAC combo but it is more emotional, involving and better soundstage. The only problem with this turntable option is that I don't have LPs and I don't want to spend $$$$ to build an LP library that can make me happy as I am now with Tidal. 

 

I have a friend, he is a fan of turntables and recently switched to Reel to reel. He also has a Wavelength DAC cost $3000 but he said there was a big gap between his digital and his analog sources. 

 

My question is if there is any higher end DAC and streamer combo  that can beat turntable and phono preamp combo (let's say the budget for each combo is $10,000)?  Or there is always something that is limited only to analog sources like turntables, reel to reel and this makes no DAC can replace them?

 

Thank you.

Huy

 

Not a question with a clear answer. Some people will tell you there isn't a combo that will get you where you want to go; others might prefer your $3000 digital combo to your turntable setup - or even might prefer a less expensive digital combo. 

Others have a different, more complex point of view. 

 

There are audiophiles who generally prefer digital over analog and there are those who generally prefer analog. That seems to be an individual preference or taste, and not something that switching audio HW necessarily changes. 

 

If I was you, I'd listen to some more digital setups at some different price points. You might find one you prefer to the turntable setup, or you might find that even the more expensive digital combos don't sound better to you than what you already have. There is not necessarily a direct connection between how expensive the digital setup is and how you will perceive it's sound quality. 

 

If you conclude that you simply prefer that analog sound, another possibility that might appeal to you is adding a tube buffer or preamp to your digital chain, or finding a DAC with tube based output. Some listeners find that adding tubes into the chain "solves the problem" for them, as it were. 

[R1200CL]

Do you plan yo use Roon ?

What is your other items ?

 

You may like Dave (look here, he likes Dave a lot). 
 

I normally don’t promote my Theta Generation VIII much as it’s expensive and only supports AES/EBU and SPDIF. But maybe worth to test it against other DAC’s if you have that possibility. 
 

Old DAC’s may sound very good and may “beat” many of today’s DAC’s.

I like to give an advice that many probably will disagree in. Stay away from USB. Use optical Ethernet only. (Well then only Lumin left I guess 😀). 
 

From one of the links above:

“It has been stated that the reverberation time in a large venue like Carnegie Hall measures between 1.8 to 2 seconds.  At the Alice Tully Hall in the Lincoln Center just a mile away, this more intimate arena has a shorter reverberation time of 1.4-1.5 seconds.  Which is preferable depends on whether I am listening to a solo guitar, four string quartet or a full orchestra but regardless, I very much enjoy hearing the acoustics of a great building and never would I prefer to hear music in an anechoic chamber.  This is where most DACs stumble and where I find the DAVE excels.  This is also where I find PCM superior to DSD.  DSD provides you an expansive and a soft "tube-like" sound but this softness, which can be a wonderful way of masking the harshness of many chip DACs also results in a diffuse and imprecise presentation with respect to depth and timing and my careful A/B of my own recordings has convinced me of this.  As someone who values the accurate spatial portrayal of a live musical performance, I have found that a good music server can providemuch but a good DAC can provide more”.

 

[Rexp]

2 hours ago, quanghuy147 said:

Hello, 

I currently have a DAC and streamer setup which cost about $3000. Recently, I bought a turntable with phono preamp, which cost $600. 

 

I compared the sound by some familiar songs and found that the turntable combo sound 90% detailed as the DAC combo but it is more emotional, involving and better soundstage. The only problem with this turntable option is that I don't have LPs and I don't want to spend $$$$ to build an LP library that can make me happy as I am now with Tidal. 

 

I have a friend, he is a fan of turntables and recently switched to Reel to reel. He also has a Wavelength DAC cost $3000 but he said there was a big gap between his digital and his analog sources. 

 

My question is if there is any higher end DAC and streamer combo  that can beat turntable and phono preamp combo (let's say the budget for each combo is $10,000)?  Or there is always something that is limited only to analog sources like turntables, reel to reel and this makes no DAC can replace them?

 

Thank you.

Huy

 

If you go to a hifi show where they are comparing analog to digital, typically half the room will prefer analog, half digital. You are in the former catagory so just make sure you only take advice from folks who actively run turntables. I don't have any recommendations as I am in the same boat as you. The best sound I've achieved so far has been with files, rather than Tidal though. 

[seeteeyou]

I'd like to quote @dminches who's very well versed in both digital and analog domains

 

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/taiko-audio-sgm-extreme-the-crème-de-la-crème.27433/page-245#post-676299

Quote

The power supply is way more important than the computer itself. And then it is the tuning of the software and firmware.

 

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/60329-analog-still-better/page/2/?tab=comments#comment-1078341

On 9/6/2020 at 11:07 AM, dminches said:

I enjoy both formats.  I listen to reels, LPs and digital files.  I prefer analog but after getting the Pacific and the Sean Jacobs DC4 for my server I am enjoying digital more and more.

 

I don’t know why people argue as to which one is “better.”  People should just listen to what they like.

 

Most likely DC4 should be one of the best choices out there

 

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/59258-sean-jacobs-custom-hifi-cables-dc34/page/2/?tab=comments#comment-1053536

On 5/22/2020 at 6:01 AM, adamaley said:

My DC4 arrived today. First impressions are a little overwhelming. It leaves me wondering why I hadn't made this jump all this while.

 

[dmance]

DAC: Chord TT2 that's been RF isolated using audiowise products. 

Server: does not matter if it's fully RF isolated from the DAC. But use an optical signal chain.

 

[ecwl]

20 hours ago, quanghuy147 said:

I currently have a DAC and streamer setup which cost about $3000. Recently, I bought a turntable with phono preamp, which cost $600. 

 

I compared the sound by some familiar songs and found that the turntable combo sound 90% detailed as the DAC combo but it is more emotional, involving and better soundstage...

 

I have a friend, ...He also has a Wavelength DAC cost $3000 but he said there was a big gap between his digital and his analog sources. 

 

My question is if there is any higher end DAC and streamer combo  that can beat turntable and phono preamp combo (let's say the budget for each combo is $10,000)?  Or there is always something that is limited only to analog sources like turntables, reel to reel and this makes no DAC can replace them?

It is always hard to know because some people just really like vinyl even when presented with state of the art digital sound which I personally think sounds far superior.

Wavelength DACs were great when they first came out... They might have been one of the first asynchronous USB DACs out there. Not sure how competitive they are nowadays.

I find for people who are looking for digital sound that surpasses their expectations of vinyl, most people are not happy with DAC chip DACs. Some people prefer Chord DACs, others DSD DACs, e.g. PS Audio DirectStream, while many actually prefer ladder DACs such as your Schiit Yggdrasil. It is always difficult to guess what you’re looking for.

It is also difficult to know why you found vinyls being more emotional or with better soundstage. Yggdrasil probably has more low-level signal linearity issues even compared to most ladder DACs which are more prone to this issue so maybe that’s where your soundstage issue comes from. It is possible that if you bypass the Yggdrasil upsampling and use HQPlayer to upsample and noise shape the 384kHz signal into the DAC, you might get the sound you want? Or maybe you’ll be happier with the next-level ladder DAC? Some people prefer ladder DACs with no oversampling (unlike Yggdrasil) and personally I think it’s because non-oversampling filters introduce euphonic harmonic distortions.

But as @seeteeyou said, it is definitely possible that your digital streamer/server power supply is introducing too much noise into your DAC, undermining the performance of your DAC.

Unfortunately, without auditioning a new DAC at your home (or trying those power supplies recommended), it’ll be very difficult for you to know whether you’ll be able to get the sound you’re looking for. But if you’re mostly using Tidal and have a digital setup, I don’t think you should switch to LPs. Best to invest your time and money into digital audio.

The other issue is about bang for the buck. Not sure if you’re a headphone listener or speakers. Simple digital parametric EQ for DSP/room correction all the way to more complicated convolution filters can dramatically improve the speaker sound (which would be much harder to do with vinyl). And the cost for that would be significantly less than thousands of dollars in upgrading to a new DAC. Just something to think about, perhaps

[One and a half]

@quanghuy147, there most likely will be a DAC that can equal (or better) than what you could hear from a turntable. 

That DAC will *always* be hindered from performing its best, since the source, cabling and nature of the digital audio transmission paths will hobble that performance. So the sound output of the DAC can change, but not 100% related to the 'sound' of the DAC itself. As a guess that ratio is at least 25%/External influences, 75% the sound of the DAC. So to put that into a budget, well that's not going to be easy.

 

From these experiments, SQ can change dramatically (for the better) and has nothing to do with the DAC itself. So, the never ending quest of digital 'being done right'.

 

For LP's I  do enjoy them and there's similarities of the music that LP as you experience. In particular, drums and vocals are realistic compared with digital, but that may be an unfair comparison. The mastering of digital is at the mercy of audio vandals that can wreck a classic recording, dreading the word 'remastered'.  Old LPs (>50 years) need a lot of work to clean them to reduce that surface noise, and obtaining a quiet copy as a used product is a crap shoot. 

 

For Reel to Reel, it's a dead format. Realities are the pre-recorded media is not plentiful, as opposed to CD and LP, so the price escalates. No one makes a new machine now. The nature of the tape is not permanent, the magnetic particles leach away from the substrate, and aggressive head media like the Akai glass heads chew the particles right off the tape. Mechanically, there's a friction device, bearing, roller, slide that needs adjustment lubrication or alignment. The heads need checking now and again, but there needs to be a calibrated tape to set up the correct bias in the first place, good luck in finding these. let alone a tech that cares and has the knowledge to repair them.

Arguably, a Reel to Reel machine is the coolest of all audio equipment, but long term problems put it well out reach, but for the really hardened and dedicated audiophile. Have often thought about a R2R or even DAT, but the mechanical transport problems do outweigh the romance and nostalgia associated with the machines.

[sandyk]

10 hours ago, ecwl said:

But as @seeteeyou said, it is definitely possible that your digital streamer/server power supply is introducing too much noise into your DAC, undermining the performance of your DAC.

 One and a half has also discussed that aspect in the previous post.

Quote

Have often thought about a R2R or even DAT, but the mechanical transport problems do outweigh the romance and nostalgia associated with the machines.- one and a half

 I previously owned a Sony DAT player but they were costly to maintain as Gary has said.(above) and there were very few pre-recorded DAT music tapes.

 I have also previously owned a Nakamichi cassette deck, and they sounded great after being tweaked, but maintenance costs were also quite expensive, as were the cost of Metal tapes needed for the highest quality recordings.

[One and a half]

2 hours ago, sandyk said:

 One and a half has also discussed that aspect in the previous post.

 I previously owned a Sony DAT player but they were costly to maintain as Gary has said.(above) and there were very few pre-recorded DAT music tapes.

 I have also previously owned a Nakamichi cassette deck, and they sounded great after being tweaked, but maintenance costs were also quite expensive, as were the cost of Metal tapes needed for the highest quality recordings.

See also from Ken Kessler:

 

"For any format, whether new or revived, it is the availability of pre-recorded music that determines its health. That's why the LP came back like gangbusters, and the otherwise-hugely-impressive Elcaset withered away."

 

Yup, cassettes in various forms are very complex, especially DAT. I also recall the cost of Metal tapes, and they were chewed up as equally with the poor LN Type 1 tapes. Nice to remember them, but also nice to forget. A lot of DAT tapes out there, underground with musicians, as they recorded direct to DAT as masters. That's now what 30 years old tapes, condition of which would not be great.

[seeteeyou]

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/24966-ecdesigns/page/15/?tab=comments#comment-1066676  

On 7/10/2020 at 6:28 AM, hopkins said:

I was listening today to "Art Pepper Meets the Rhythm Section" , and it had incredible drive, which I had only previously heard with a vinyl setup. Very dynamic.

 

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/24966-ecdesigns/page/47/?tab=comments#comment-1084035

1 hour ago, hopkins said:

I get what people say about vinyl, and its funny to see that you can get dynamic and vivid sound so easily with a basic turntable, whereas digital can require much more effort. 

 

But I find my digital rig equally satisfying now. So its all good :) 

 

Here they are, you'll have to purchase both items as a complete set

 

https://www.ecdesigns.nl/en/blog/da96etf

https://www.ecdesigns.nl/en/shop/da96etf

 

https://www.ecdesigns.nl/en/blog/u192etl

https://www.ecdesigns.nl/en/shop/u192etl

 

Hopefully they're able to ship outside EU

 

https://www.ecdesigns.nl/en/blog/corona-impact-on-production-and-sales

[Rexp]

9 hours ago, seeteeyou said:

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/24966-ecdesigns/page/15/?tab=comments#comment-1066676  

 

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/24966-ecdesigns/page/47/?tab=comments#comment-1084035

 

Here they are, you'll have to purchase both items as a complete set

 

https://www.ecdesigns.nl/en/blog/da96etf

https://www.ecdesigns.nl/en/shop/da96etf

 

https://www.ecdesigns.nl/en/blog/u192etl

https://www.ecdesigns.nl/en/shop/u192etl

 

Hopefully they're able to ship outside EU

 

https://www.ecdesigns.nl/en/blog/corona-impact-on-production-and-sales

And vinyl is much better according to this EC Designs user.... 

 

 

[Kal Rubinson]

The problem for me is that there has not been a relevant new vinyl issue in 2 decades.  So, who cares?

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

7 minutes ago, Kal Rubinson said:

The problem for me is that there has not been a relevant new vinyl issue in 2 decades.  So, who cares?

 

You don't listen to anything recorded in the 20th century? 

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

27 minutes ago, Rexp said:

And vinyl is much better according to this EC Designs user.... 

 

 

 

Norton has a much much better vinyl rig than me, and I refrained from posting my point of view here, but the OP did mention he has a relatively modest vinyl rig as well... 

[Rexp]

16 minutes ago, hopkins said:

 

Norton has a much much better vinyl rig than me, and I refrained from posting my point of view here, but the OP did mention he has a relatively modest vinyl rig as well... 

I'm sure the ECD DAC is excellent, one of many good DAC's out there, I think you might agree that the server/player is more important than the DAC? 

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

Just now, Rexp said:

I'm sure the ECD DAC is excellent, one of many good DAC's out there, I think you might agree that the server/player is more important than the DAC? 

 

Yes, one of many. 

I think both server/player and DAC contribute. Neither are perfect... 

[AudioDoctor]

The only real answer is, possibly...

 

There are millions of combinations of items on both sides that make this an impossible question to answer.

 

A good first step with regards to vinyl playback is get a table with exceptionally low Wow and Flutter, such as the Technics SL1200G. Full disclosure, I own one. It practically eliminates speed variations compared to the belt driven variety of turntables.

https://www.technics.com/us/products/grand-class/direct-drive-turntable-system-sl-1200g.html

[Kal Rubinson]

13 hours ago, hopkins said:

 

You don't listen to anything recorded in the 20th century? 

Sure. But for the past 2 decades, we have been in the 21st century and I have thousands of recordings made in this period.  My point is that there have been no new classical vinyl releases (save for a handful of "audiophile specials) recorded in the 2 decades.

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

8 minutes ago, Kal Rubinson said:

Sure. But for the past 2 decades, we have been in the 21st century and I have thousands of recordings made in this period.  My point is that there have been no new classical vinyl releases (save for a handful of "audiophile specials) recorded in the 2 decades.

 

Exactly, to quote you "who cares" ... 

 

Vinyl and digital do not have to ne mutually exclusive. 

 

[R1200CL]

The OP was asking:

 

“My question is if there is any higher end DAC and streamer combo  that can beat turntable and phono preamp combo (let's say the budget for each combo is $10,000)?  Or there is always something that is limited only to analog sources like turntables, reel to reel and this makes no DAC can replace them? “
 

I think he would like suggestions for what equipment worth looking at. 

[Foggie]

I don't think recommending to use "component X will be better" is worthwhile IMHO.  The question of cost, seems to me anyway, the wrong way to look at this.  The cost of a component is pretty irrelevant in terms of its performance to the individual.  Analog vs digital - there’s a million discussions on that topic and there is NO ANSWER and NEVER will be to that question.

 

If you want to dabble in vinyl then go for it.  However, just be prepared that any avenue you go down whether digital or vinyl, the SAME rabbit hole exists. 

 

The reality is that in the end, it all comes down to putting together a proper set of components that fit your environment/goals.  You can make either “format” sound great or crappy.  If you put in the time and effort building up a rig that is well thought out with regards to the many areas that matter, you should be a happy camper with either.

 

You don’t need to spend uber amounts on either type to have an extremely rewarding system/experience.  If you have the time and $ to have both, kudos.  Its still an expensive hobby nonetheless.

 

I would personally set priorities (again unless you have unlimited funds) and focus on one or the other.  I was in the same predicament not long ago and through some good responses, it came down to (for me) this:  If you’re already heavily invested in digital (the entire chain) and have a large library you would have to spend quite a bit getting a vinyl rig up to par.  Bottom line it wasn’t worth it (to me) to go down that road.

 

Many of the individuals (not all of course) who chimed in have a great vinyl rig with loads of albums and many of whom stated if they were to do it again, to stick with digital.  Again, none of the comments were down playing vinyl as a bad thing or bashing it in anyway.  I think the hassle + expense doing really good vinyl just got long in the tooth and if one was starting out today it wasn’t worth all of the drawbacks.  One of which for me was my library (4000-5000).  I have maybe 40 albums and most of which are probably pretty hacked up.  The thought of having to spend $30+ an album to accumulate a decent size vinyl lib was a major show stopper for me. 

 

This all goes to say that nothing is preventing one from going out and spending a few grand on a vinyl rig and enjoying it for what it is.  Maybe that experience would be significant and you end up going all in on a making it a great vinyl rig. My .$02

 

[mav52]

It all depends on the Turntable, the phono amp, arm and cartridge, amp, speakers used. Pretty much the same can be said for the DAC, depends on which dac connected to which equipment and speakers.  $$$ $ at times do come into play.

[d_elm]

IMHO good vinyl playback setup is desirable if you have a significant collection of LPs worth listening to.  For me vinyl playback is as good as high resolution digital with 15k$ digital playback.  I do not know where this comparison goes if one has a 35k$ digital chain.

 

Some artists now release material only at CD quality or on vinyl.  The master is likely high resolution digital so the vinyl sounds much better than the CD, possibly because the low pass filter used for CD is not needed for vinyl.

 

Good vinyl playback is not cheap, nor is good digital playback.  One needs to start with a turntable that can control vibrations and put it on a Gingko cloud 10 or 11.  Wall mounting helps. Watch for announcements from DS Audio for a new DS-E1 cartridge equalizer.  The E1 is their entry level optical cartridge (all analog with conventional stylus) and is more affordable than their other offerings.  Read about cartridge's optical transducer.

[992Sam]

having spent the last 2 months listening to every DAC I possibly could thru a McIntosh reference system at my dealer (MC452 and C52)... I came to the conclusion that there is no way around the "you get what you pay for" truism.... which is to say, I found the dCS Rossini and Vivaldi (the latter which I cannot afford) to sound the best of any DAC's that I heard in the same or lower price range.... and I've heard nothing in the same price range, as I don't think there is anything readily available...

 

I started my journey with a PS Audio DirectStream which was decent enough, but then when I heard the SimAudio Moon DAC's I was distracted away from PS Audio... and Linn and Chord also presented some better alternatives... but the mistake I made was asking to hear the Vivaldi and Rossini and being unable to un-hear them and the difference, I had to go with the Rossini as the Vivaldi was about $40K out of my price range. 

 

Best substitute to a top of the line analogue set up in my view.