Master Clock for your EtherREGEN

[yy]

@R1200CL

The phase noise of the external Nadac Clock-L device is -130dbC @ 10Hz. The BG7TBL (based on DAPU spec) is -125dBc @ 10Hz, so it should be still a major improvement. 

 

Unfortunately the Mutec can't match with the Nadac. The DAC doesn't synchronize on 10Mhz clock but only on 692Khz (specific format of Merging). The Adjustable BG7TBL should be able to generate this 692Khz signal on its output, no?

 

 

[R1200CL]

48 minutes ago, yy said:

The phase noise of the external Nadac Clock-L device is -130dbC @ 10Hz. The BG7TBL (based on DAPU spec) is -125dBc @ 10Hz, so it should be still a major improvement. 

I thought it was the opposite. Higher numbers was better. Anyone can comment?

 

48 minutes ago, yy said:

The Adjustable BG7TBL should be able to generate this 692Khz signal on its output, no?

If seller says so. I haven’t studied the device. Maybe you should ask how this is achieved? And if specs is same on all frequencies and outputs. 
I must admit I don’t know enough about these things. So maybe don’t pay to much attention to my comments. 
 

Edit:

Closest you get is 690 KHz (probably doesn’t matter). 
Adjustable Frequency Range/Step: 10K-180MHz/Step 10Hz

[Superdad]

1 hour ago, yy said:

The BG7TBL (based on DAPU spec) is -125dBc @ 10Hz, so it should be still a major improvement.

 

Do not expect the wide adjustment BG7TBL clocks to have very low phase noise. At that price point the method they use to synthesize other frequencies from their main clock can not be very advanced.

 

1 hour ago, yy said:

The DAC doesn't synchronize on 10Mhz clock but only on 692Khz (specific format of Merging).

 

Where are you coming up with this 692KHz rate for Merging?  The word clock I/O for their DACs (and others) are always to be some multiple of either 44.1KHz or 48.0KHz. 

[yy]

1 hour ago, Superdad said:

 

Where are you coming up with this 692KHz rate for Merging?  The word clock I/O for their DACs (and others) are always to be some multiple of either 44.1KHz or 48.0KHz. 

 

Directly from the technical support of Merging. You can find also this information on their site web.
The Merging +Clock has multiples outputs including one dedicated synchronization for Merging Nadac.
This output signal is 625Khz (my mistake it's not 692Khz). The main benefit of this format is that the NADAC will be synchronised to the external clock while he continues to switch automatically the sampling rate of the file played.
The WordClock format is also possible but it requires to change the format 44.1 or 48kHz which is less practical.

 

 

[yy]

2 hours ago, R1200CL said:

Edit:

Closest you get is 690 KHz (probably doesn’t matter). 
Adjustable Frequency Range/Step: 10K-180MHz/Step 10Hz

Sorry, actually it's not 692Khz but 625Khz.

From 10 000 Hz with step of 10Hz it should be possible to reach 625 000 Hz.

[Superdad]

39 minutes ago, yy said:

Directly from the technical support of Merging. You can find also this information on their site web.
The Merging +Clock has multiples outputs including one dedicated synchronization for Merging Nadac.
This output signal is 625Khz (my mistake it's not 692Khz). The main benefit of this format is that the NADAC will be synchronised to the external clock while he continues to switch automatically the sampling rate of the file played.
The WordClock format is also possible but it requires to change the format 44.1 or 48kHz which is less practical.

 

Merging NADAC has always struck me as a strange beast--put together using the giant, created long ago Ethertube from Horus.  So it seems that the clock going into the NADAC is not going to the DAC at all, rather to that Ethernet card, which ultimately generates (with PLL clock synthesizer) audio rate clocks. (The black coax/BNC cable in the photo below can be seen going directly from the "Word Clock" input BNC to old Horus Ethertube card.)

 

 

There are a lot of NADAC owners enjoying their DAC powered by our choke-filter, dual-output, 5-7.4A JS-2 linear power supply. Given the $15 SMPS they have (hiding under that aluminum shell) it is not hard to understand why. Not what one would expect from a $10K+ DAC... 

[yy]

16 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

Merging NADAC has always struck me as a strange beast--put together using the giant, created long ago Ethertube from Horus.  So it seems that the clock going into the NADAC is not going to the DAC at all, rather to that Ethernet card, which ultimately generates (with PLL clock synthesizer) audio rate clocks. (The black coax/BNC cable in the photo below can be seen going directly from the "Word Clock" input BNC to old Horus Ethertube card.)

 

 

There are a lot of NADAC owners enjoying their DAC powered by our choke-filter, dual-output, 5-7.4A JS-2 linear power supply. Given the $15 SMPS they have (hiding under that aluminum shell) it is not hard to understand why. Not what one would expect from a $10K+ DAC... 

 

The internal of the Nadac doesn't reflect it's audio qualities at all. This DAC is a fantastic machine. But it's true that your JS-2 power supply is a great upgrade ;-)

[Superdad]

7 minutes ago, yy said:

The internal of the Nadac doesn't reflect it's audio qualities at all. This DAC is a fantastic machine.

 

I know!  Every client of ours--domestic or overseas--who owns NADAC loves it. But the tech in it is not very new. That's of course okay, I have an old PCM1704 DAC with discrete output stage that conveys music terrifically.

I am wondering about the new Merging+Player piece. I assume they moved to the small ZMAN Ravenna card for that model, but I have yet to see photos.

(Unfortunately the promised Ravenna/ZMAN revolution has yet to take hold. But that's a whole other story... )

[Pro Jules]

I think Merging and Mutec have the same US distribution. BTW

[lwr]

I ordered two BG7TBL 10 MHz OCXO external clocks with 75 ohm outputs and the free shipping was so slow that I thought they were probably lost at sea.  Then I placed a second order with expedited shipping and it arrived promptly.  
 

Eventually the slow boat from China finally delivered the first two I ordered, and now I have two more than I need.

 

Send me a pm if you would like me to send you one for $95, including shipping within continental USA, and PayPal fees.  

[jamesg11]

Well, here in Oz that “slow boat from China” turned out to be a slow local customs-distribution nexus

ie the shipping details that came thru the day of delivery showed said clock sitting in Melbourne from end of Nov thru the whole of Dec - slow boat was ~2 weeks, local Oz was ~5 weeks.

 

We do have a tit-for-tat ‘cold war’ going on ...

[jamesg11]

On 1/5/2021 at 6:45 AM, Superdad said:

Do not expect the wide adjustment BG7TBL clocks to have very low phase noise. At that price point the method they use to synthesize other frequencies from their main clock can not be very advanced.

Any specific measurements available yet?

... duh! just re-read previous page, ... already covered - thanks Alex.

[ambre]

On 1/3/2021 at 5:34 PM, Superdad said:

 

If if you are looking for a good performance clock at modest prices, look to Cybershaft. Even their entry level models (some as little as $700) each come with full individual calibration/test sheets and phase-noise plots. 

https://www.adark.co/collections/cybershaft/products/copy-of-cybershaft-ma-op13-op19-ocxo-10mhz-時鐘-vip

(I am pasting the link to Cybershaft entry series on their Hong Kong dealer’s site because specs are given in English at the bottom; Cybershaft’s pages are Japanese only.)

 

Also, AfterDark—a dealer for both UpTone and Cybershaft (plus others) has collaborated with someone to produce about a clock range with pretty good performance—starting at about $400:

Hi Alex, 

Contacted Aftdark and I have a quotation for several types of Clocks,  additional power supply and a Masterclock -cable too. Sounds fascinating and affordable.

Speaking about specs what will be GOOD enough for the EtherRegen?

 

Phase Noise

Emperor Giesemann EVA] Phase Noise -120dBc at 1 Hz / -140dBc at 10 Hz

[Emperor Giesemann] Phase Noise -118dBc at 1 Hz / -140dBc at 10 Hz

[Emperor Triple Crown] Phase Noise -114dBc at 1 Hz / -137 dBc at 10 Hz

 

Allan Deviation 艾倫方差短期穩定性參考值

[Emperor Giesemann EVA]TAU = 1sec 2.50E-13或更短（0.00025ppb / s）

[Emperor Giesemann]TAU = 1sec 2.78E-13或更短（0.00028ppb / s）

[Emperor Triple Crown] TAU = 1sec 3.8E-13或更短（0.00038ppb / s）

 

Ps.BNC clock cable to connect 10M to UpTone tailor made BNC clock cable with Huber + Suhner plug and cables.

 

There statement is " this product can work with Mutec MC3, Esoteric, UpTone EtherREGEN etc. The improvement is huge, soundstage, and more focused. 

 

Please your advice so that I pull the trigger.

Regards, Andreas

[GMG]

The Cybershafts and Afterdark clocks are sine wave (as far as I could gather from the translation)

I thought the Etherregen prefers square wave

[JohnSwenson]

4 hours ago, GMG said:

The Cybershafts and Afterdark clocks are sine wave (as far as I could gather from the translation)

I thought the Etherregen prefers square wave

I just got an AfterDark clock that Alex sent me. It doesn't say what model it is, but the output is definitely a sine wave with 1.3V peak to peak. The output is 50 ohms so I loaded it with 50 ohms and used a 50 ohm cable.

 

I have not had a chance to run it with an ER or do phase noise measurements.

 

John S.

[jamesg11]

11 hours ago, JohnSwenson said:

I just got an AfterDark clock that Alex sent me. It doesn't say what model it is, but the output is definitely a sine wave with 1.3V peak to peak. The output is 50 ohms so I loaded it with 50 ohms and used a 50 ohm cable.

 

I have not had a chance to run it with an ER or do phase noise measurements.

 

John S.

The thread’s BG7TBL not included ...?

[ambre]

3 hours ago, jamesg11 said:

The thread’s BG7TBL not included ...?

Hi James,

It is discussed un the same thread too. Just started to read all 20plus pages.🤪

 

What are your experiences with this € 80,00 clock is it rubbish or can it be used well with the EtherRegen etc?

 

Best regards, Andreas

[Superdad]

10 hours ago, jamesg11 said:

The thread’s BG7TBL not included ...?

I did send John my BG7TBL as well as the AfterDark clock.

However, he is right in the middle of two highly important development phases for the next two UpTone products and those have priority over him spending a day to set up, warm up, and run phase-noise plots on these clocks. Maybe in the slack time while waiting for next round of development test boards to come back...

[jamesg11]

1 hour ago, Superdad said:

I did send John my BG7TBL as well as the AfterDark clock.

However, he is right in the middle of two highly important development phases for the next two UpTone products and those have priority over him spending a day to set up, warm up, and run phase-noise plots on these clocks. Maybe in the slack time while waiting for next round of development test boards to come back...

We all know there are some who get progressively inquisitorial about these new prospects on the horizon - I’ve developed a warm n cosy all-is-right-with-the-world expectation. A good thing, in this bizarre world!

[ambre]

2 hours ago, Superdad said:

I did send John my BG7TBL as well as the AfterDark clock.

However, he is right in the middle of two highly important development phases for the next two UpTone products and those have priority over him spending a day to set up, warm up, and run phase-noise plots on these clocks. Maybe in the slack time while waiting for next round of development test boards to come back...

Hi Alex,

 

that's  a little bit pitty. The recommendation by you for Afterdark concerning Giesemann  and Cybershaft are fine.

Had several discussion with Adrian of Afterdark last 3 days including a nice quotation concerning Giesemann Masterclocks.

 

After studying it.... appeared that these Giesemann Clocks are all 50ohm and not suitable at first instance for the EtherRegen unless you have had ordered the  special 50ohm EtherRegen version. Ps. He offered later a converter 50-> 75 ohm forEtherREGEN around EUR30. Ps. Cybershaft can deliver a 75 ohm.

 

But the discussion is now  pending due to statement a few post earlier by John S. That EtherRegen prefers like the Mutec Masterclock the so-called square waves instead as specified by Giesemann and Cybershaft used Sine-wave.

 

Afterdark stated " we can make square wave, but the high quality OCXO is on sine save side". The OCXO is only determined by Phase noise, Allen Derivation. And " Most audiophile Like CH Swiss , Esoteric, Mutec MC3 use Sinewave as standard and EtherREGEN is working well as well."

 

I am lost now🥴 and will wait to pull the trigger till there is consistency and clarity by Uptone which clock can be best used.   

 

 Very best regards, Andreas

 

[PYP]

17 hours ago, ambre said:

But the discussion is now  pending due to statement a few post earlier by John S. That EtherRegen prefers like the Mutec Masterclock the so-called square waves instead as specified by Giesemann and Cybershaft used Sine-wave.

 

Will be interested, as always, in what John says.  I can confirm that the Cybershaft makes a significant improvement to the eR's performance in my system.  Right now, the SQ is very, very good.  Wouldn't want to be without the eR!  Waiting to make the right purchase, as we know, will save you from cycling through gear.  Enjoy the search.  

[ambre]

36 minutes ago, PYP said:

 

Will be interested, as always, in what John says.  I can confirm that the Cybershaft makes a significant improvement to the eR's performance in my system.  Right now, the SQ is very, very good.  Wouldn't want to be without the eR!  Waiting to make the right purchase, as we know, will save you from cycling through gear.  Enjoy the search.  

Thanks 😁

[FIndingit]

Those of us who have the BG7TBL with sine and sq wave outputs can compare the two.
 

I seem to prefer the sine wave, which either means the Chinese sq wave conversion is bad or I happen to enjoy the added sparkle of some jitter. It’s very easy to hear the difference. Sine has more highs and air. 

[ambre]

57 minutes ago, FIndingit said:

Those of us who have the BG7TBL with sine and sq wave outputs can compare the two.
 

I seem to prefer the sine wave, which either means the Chinese sq wave conversion is bad or I happen to enjoy the added sparkle of some jitter. It’s very easy to hear the difference. Sine has more highs and air. 

Can you choice either square of sine wave in same Bg- device ?

[MartinT]

I am running my ER with sinewave and the Mutec with squarewave output. Sound quality is superb with this arrangement.