Master Clock for your EtherREGEN

[GMG]

7 hours ago, Superdad said:

I (and others) power the BG7TBL clock with an UltraCap LPS-1.2.  Works quite nicely. 

 

Teddy's units are very nice and he is a good guy!  Please remember that this thread is in the UpTone sponsored forum area. 

As long as we agree that both Teddy's units and UpTone units are great :-)

 

For the sake of discussion -  in attempt to reduce boxes and clutter, and since Teddy is my neighbor (😃) I am considering asking for a combo box: power supply + Clock + Etherregen. All in one box, powered from the same PS and direct PCB connections.
 

What do you think? would that be nice? would it potentially yield better or worse sound quality compared to having 3-4 boxes for this setup?

 

(if you where my neighbor I would ask if you could do it with the JS2 😎)

[R1200CL]

20 hours ago, jacques_racine said:

Hi,

Just received my unit.

Still trying to figure out how to power it.

Based on what I read here, it seems we should feed it with 12.5V - Is this still the case?

Is there a ready made LPS you can recommend that would fit the bill?

Keces does 12V, not 12.5V.... Many thanks

Maybe not what you’re looking for:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000475036942.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.1bf85590zuVlfP&algo_pvid=6c739b54-2aca-4ea6-b827-69a3135389c3&algo_expid=6c739b54-2aca-4ea6-b827-69a3135389c3-0&btsid=0bb0624016039650501982504e471c&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_,searchweb201603_

 

The Gophert NPS-1601 is actually quite nice. You can add LT3045 boxes after them. 
 

[R1200CL]

3 hours ago, GMG said:

I am considering asking for a combo box: power supply + Clock + Etherregen. All in one box, powered from the same PS and direct PCB connections.

By sharing PS, you will also possibly have leakage currents. If you’re aiming for the best, you may consider dual LPS-1.2. 

 

 

[GMG]

1 hour ago, R1200CL said:

By sharing PS, you will also possibly have leakage currents. If you’re aiming for the best, you may consider dual LPS-1.2. 

 

 

Since leakage is due of the power supply I don't see how using 2 identical power supplies will prevent the leakage to each of the powered components Vs. using 1 power supply of the same nature but with double the power.

Maybe I'm missing some understanding here, but my logic is that if you use a quality PS with low leakage then you will not suffer from leakage, regardless of the number of power supplies you use.

[JohnSwenson]

5 hours ago, GMG said:

Since leakage is due of the power supply I don't see how using 2 identical power supplies will prevent the leakage to each of the powered components Vs. using 1 power supply of the same nature but with double the power.

Maybe I'm missing some understanding here, but my logic is that if you use a quality PS with low leakage then you will not suffer from leakage, regardless of the number of power supplies you use.

Hi GMG,

there are two completely independent things that can happen, ground loops and leakage loops. They are caused by completely different mechanisms, ground loops are caused induced current in safety grounds, and leakage loops are a property of power supplies. To make things really complicated these two can interact in strange ways.

 

For example a leakage loop starts at a power supply, it can go through another power supply OR a safety ground. There are no simple "one size fits all" rules with this.

 

As to the question above, having one low leakage supply does not prevent OTHER higher leakage supplies from causing leakage loops. Say you have a low leakage supply with a safety ground connection, the leakage from another supply can travel over the signal cables to get to that safety ground. Again no simple rule.

 

Another example is the EtherREGEN, it is designed specifically to stop leakage current from cheap network requipment from getting into you equipment. If you use the same supply which has the negative of the two outputs connected, and one drives the EtherRegen and the other a streamer or DAC downstream of the ER, you short the isolation in the ER and leakage from the network equipment goes through the single power supply right into the audio equipment. That is why two completely separate, isolated supplies would be better.

 

The whole subject is important, but very difficult to figure out by just thinking about it. Both ground loops and leakage loops can go through BOTH power supply and signal (both digital and analog) cables, so any attempt at figuring them out takes drawings that include all power and signal connections in your system and then try and work things out. With a complex system it becomes very difficult to do.

 

That doesn't mean give up, start with isolating the strongest sources of loops, which usually come from cheap home network equipment, then once you get rid of that start working on lesser sources.

 

John S.

[Superdad]

Thanks John. You really saved me a lot of typing on a busy morning when we are shipping out the last October EtherREGENs. 

 

Just a last to add to what you wrote:

The EtherREGEN's BNC external clock connection is in the 'B' side -VE/0-volt "ground" domain.  And since DC power into the EtherREGEN is in the 'A' side domain (yes, the 'B' side also gets power--but over a isolating converter), powering a clock and the EtherREGEN from a common ("ground") domain supply may also defeat the isolation.  I think depends upon how the clock itself is built--with respect to its own power networks and output.

[GMG]

Thanks John and Alex.

But as you mention the best practice here is to maintain good grounding practice and usage of quality power supplies (hope I got it right and am not over simplifying),

so for the case at hand - if I use a single high quality grounded power supply to power both clock and ER and have both clock and ER grounded to the same ground as the power supply, aren’t leakage and loops dangers reduced to minimum? 
Obviously loops and leakage can now come from the rest of my system components, but as long as I keep the same practice of good power supplies and common grounds I think I should be ok.
If I’m still not getting it and you still think that 2 separate supplies for the ER and clock are the better practice just write back and say - “trust us you are better off with 2 🙂”

I know you guys are busy creating great stuff for us all 🙂 

[Superdad]

1 hour ago, GMG said:

If I’m still not getting it and you still think that 2 separate supplies for the ER and clock are the better practice just write back and say - “trust us you are better off with 2

 

Pretty much. 

Forget about leakage (common-mode AC currents traveling over DC connections) for a moment.

Think just about the -VE/zero-volt "ground" domains of the power supply you want to use:

If you have a power supply with two separately regulated output rails, are their -VE domains actually separate? Maybe, if the PS has a dual secondary transformer and two sets of of rectifying diodes.

But if the output "grounds" (talking about -VE/0-volt, not AC mains earth grounds) are common to both power supply rails, then to avoid defeating the special active differential isolation moat of the EtherREGEN you will want to avoid using that power supply for both the EtherREGEN and anything connected to the 'B' side of the EtherREGEN.

[As mentioned, both the 'B' side RJ45 port and the BNC clock input are on the 'B' side power domain. The DC power connection to the EtherREGEN is to the 'A' side.]

 

[GMG]

Ok. 
I think I understand now. 
2 power supplies. 
 

I think someone on this thread mentioned he was using a grounding box, which as far as I know usually connects signal ground of the components to a common ground (forgetting for a second the secret sauce in the box itself),

so would connecting the ER ground and the clock (by the spare bnc) to such a common ground also defeat the ER isolation?

 

[MartinT]

Reverting to my previous cable trials, I have now decided that the Belden 4694R clock cable sounds better than the Canare LV-77S.  Amazon UK sell it all made up to different lengths with superb Neutrik BNC connectors.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07BZWY57M/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[Avalfa]

I ended up buying this one for now. In the future I will try some belden cable also, this one had good reviews on word clock use specifically. So worth trying for this few bucks.

Now wait till it arrives, assemble it and wait for the clock to arrive.

[MartinT]

On 10/25/2020 at 8:34 PM, GMG said:

What about vibration damping?

Has anyone tried applying a weight right on top of the clock's silvery cover (inside the housing)?

 

perhaps a nice Tungsten cube would make a difference as it has natural damping characteristic

 

No, but it's a nice idea!

[sgr]

I recently wrote that my system would stop playing after about an hour and the Chinese clock and etherregen would have to be restarted then the system would work s as gain. 
 

I solved the problem. 
 

I was using a Lps 1.2 for the Clock. Apparently the lps 1.2 at 12 volts barely has enough voltage. Thus causing the failure. I switched to powering the Clock with a js2 output and use the lps 1.2 for the EtherREGEN. 
 

No problems at all now.

[sgr]

Hi,

Thanks for all the suggestions. 
 

I got it all working and stable. 
 

I switched my power supplies around. I’m now powering the Clock and one EtherREGEN with the JS2. 
 

I’m powering the other EtherREGEN with my lps1.2. 
 

Apparently my clock stops working with the lps 1.2 after about an hour. It’s strange all the lights are green on the clock, lps 1.2 and EtherREGEN even when play back stops. 
 

Once I started using the js2 for the Clock everything works. 

[jamesg11]

On 11/2/2020 at 2:09 AM, MartinT said:

 

No, but it's a nice idea!

Try the Herbies Sonic Stabiliser ... I eventually put them on everything!

[Mouna]

hi sgr - could you please elaborate a bit about the difference in sound quality comparing one ER wiht using two Ers - I am thinking about getting a second one

Thanks

Mouna

[sgr]

4 hours ago, Mouna said:

hi sgr - could you please elaborate a bit about the difference in sound quality comparing one ER wiht using two Ers - I am thinking about getting a second one

Thanks

Mouna

Hi,

I’d love to report that I heard a huge difference with two. I believe I did but I also upgraded to a brand new preamp close to the same time. The clarity and the imaging have definitely improved. And I attribute some of that to the second EtherRegen. Right now they are very close to each other, about one foot. And I also have the Chinese Clock connected to both EtherRegens. 

I’m away for a bit. But i do hope to do the following. Right now I’m using 2 foot of BlueJeans CAT 6 Ethernet cable to connect the two EtherRegens. 

1 EtherRegen 

1 EtherRegen with Chinese Clock

2 EtherRegens 

2 EtherRegens with one connected to the Clock

2 EtherRegens with both connected to the Chinese Clock

 

I also plan on ordering a couple of SFPs and fiber to connect the two EtherRegens. At that point I will move the two EtherRegens about 50 foot apart. But then only the last EtherRegen will benefit from the Clock unless i decide to buy another one. 

 

I will say confidently that the Chinese Clock is 100% worthwhile, the depth, imaging, soundstage, bass, purity of sound, and prat are much, much improved. I’d like to say that two EtherRegens made a similar difference. I think they did as my system took a great stride in sound quality when I added it but much of it I know was my new CODA 0.7x preamp which is the best I've ever heard in my system or elsewhere. 

 

I hoped and still do hope that two EtherRegens would bring the results as using the Ideon Mastertime USB Reclocker being fed by the IsoRegen. That is an amazing combination. 

[sgr]

What kind of footers and toppers are being used in for the Chinese Clock?

I’m tempted to use Herbie’s Baby Booties and the Ultrasonic Stabilizer.  

[FIndingit]

Everyone should experiment with feet, I find ceramic ball types better than anything. It’s the best result in MY vibration environment. 

[Mouna]

Hi sgr,

thank you for the reply though I will wait ordering util you are back and have tried out the constellations you mentioned...

Until then it is difficult to say which component influenced the sound you have now - anyway if its enjoyable who cares....

I also got the chinese clock with 50 Ohm and waiting for the 75 Ohm version to come - but it arrrived two days ago and still burnig in as the Belden clock cable does too...but iot seems to deliver a more clear sound from the very beginning - hope it smoohtens a bit while burning in...

I will see which difference the two versions of the clock make - does anyone here has compared these two already?

 

 

[MartinT]

10 hours ago, sgr said:

What kind of footers and toppers are being used in for the Chinese Clock? 

 

I'm using Black Ravioli Pads as footers, my whole system uses their footer solutions and they are exceptional at vibration damping.

 

On top, I'm just using a large heavy door stop as a weight.

[sgr]

On 11/4/2020 at 8:26 AM, MartinT said:

 

I'm using Black Ravioli Pads as footers, my whole system uses their footer solutions and they are exceptional at vibration damping.

 

On top, I'm just using a large heavy door stop as a weight.

Yes. I like the stainless steel door stoppers too. They seem to work well on Uptone products and many others. If not for Sonics but to just make them hold still when plugging/unplugging the units. They don’t fall off the shelves with door stops on them. 

[sgr]

Some have mentioned adding LT3045s inside the Chinese Clock. Can anyone supply “how to” instructions, parts needed link, and where to insert it in the clock board? 
 

For those who’ve accomplished this what were the results?

[RickyV]

43 minutes ago, sgr said:

Some have mentioned adding LT3045s inside the Chinese Clock. Can anyone supply “how to” instructions, parts needed link, and where to insert it in the clock board? 
 

For those who’ve accomplished this what were the results?

 

That is an idea I had and is now on the long list of things to do. 

The idea is to remove the lt1963 regulator and insert a dual paralleled 1A ldovr board

[MartinT]

A modification for my OXCO master clock.  This was suggested in the thread above by @GMG.  The idea is to bond a cube of tungsten directly to the top of the Chinese oven-controlled clock module inside the BG7TBL.

 

I ordered a 20mm cube of tungsten on eBay and it arrived this morning.  I used 2-part epoxy to tightly bond it to the top of the DAPU OCXO can.  It didn't take long to harden as the clock runs at about 70°C.

 

It should provide two benefits: 1) vibration damping of the sensitive OCXO by dint of its heaviness; 2) temperature stability once the cube comes up to temperature, helping to prevent temperature variance distortions.

 

 

I've just had a listen to two tracks and my immediate impression is that dynamic transients have even more snap to them.  Donald Fagen's Nightfly and Kamakiriad are outstanding recordings and sounded pretty damned good, even cleaner than I remember and with outstanding starting and stopping of transients.

 

I'm leaving things to fully stabilise and will have another listen later this evening.