Master Clock for your EtherREGEN

[FIndingit]

4 hours ago, Roasty said:

I just received the 75ohm square wave clock from aliexpress.

 

Powered off the ER. Hooked it up. Turned clock on. Turned ER on. Light is green on the clock and music is playing. 

 

Is that all there is to it? 

Did you flip the switch?

[ambre]

2 hours ago, R1200CL said:

Are we discussing this clock ?

https://www.adark.co/collections/project-giesemann-ocxo/products/afterdark-project-clayx-giesemann-ocxo-10mhz-時鐘?variant=32128368476278

 

If so, maybe a DC version can be made ?

Group buy ?

From afterdark 2 types / brands. The Giesemann emperor (up)  and Cybershaft 14 up. See pics below. 

 

GROOPS BUY: Yes.. as soon John Swenson tells us which of the 3 types are appropriate resp. good enough for the EtherRegen. Resp a good bang for the buck.😉

[Ponkbutler]

Well, if we're seriously evaluating a group buy, maybe we should include the Mutec Ref-10 and Ref-10 SE in the mix? The only disadvantage they have is box size. They were designed from the ground up to deliver a low-phase noise square wave reference.

[MartinT]

10 hours ago, sbilotta said:

So how do you attach the Tungsten cube to the clock?

Just thermal paste or also a glue/adhesive of some sort to lock it to the clock, so that there's no risk of it moving? 

 

I used two-part epoxy. It's not moving anywhere.

[Roasty]

6 hours ago, FIndingit said:

Did you flip the switch?

 

Yep, flipped the clock switch on the ER. 

[sgr]

22 hours ago, R1200CL said:

Probably cheaper. 
https://www.ikinchlaw.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=51633

 

@sgr

Do you have pictures ?

I will post pictures when I return from out of town. Between the tungsten and the Be Quiet they really transformed the unit. It really sounds like a much more expensive unit. 
 

One really didn’t notice the short comings of the stock clock but once you e implemented these two tweaks it’s even more awesome. 
 

I forgot to mention I also have been using 4 large Baby Booties on the bottom and for footers and two Supersonic Stabilizers from Herbie’s Audio Lab as well. But I had implemented these when I first purchased the clock. 

[sgr]

13 hours ago, ambre said:

Found also this Masterclock from well known company Paul Pang.

Does somebody tried this in combination with EtherRegen?

 

I would be quite hesitant with these. PM me if you want more info. 

[mitch751]

I bought Mutec Ref 10 before I purchased ER, with or without Ref 10 does a major impact in my system.

 

Have been listening for few months and ordered a Mutec Ref 10 SE120 for my listening room, it arrived this morning and have a listen for few hours so far, the improvement over Ref 10 is quite significant (subjectively 20-25% better)

 

My setup - Mac Pro > Cisco 2960 > SPF > ER (with SE 120) > UltraRendu > Esoteric K05x (with SE 120)

[R1200CL]

13 hours ago, ambre said:

From afterdark 2 types / brands. The Giesemann emperor (up)  and Cybershaft 14 up. See pics below. 

I personally struggle with spending to much or more than the price of the EtherRegen on a clock. 
So what is the difference from Prince and up to your start point ?

Will a version with only DC input save a lot ?

 

Would be interesting to have a picture of those AfterDark clocks inside. 
It’s the same clock being used in all versions?

 

[Ponkbutler]

5 hours ago, mitch751 said:

I bought Mutec Ref 10 before I purchased ER, with or without Ref 10 does a major impact in my system.

 

Have been listening for few months and ordered a Mutec Ref 10 SE120 for my listening room, it arrived this morning and have a listen for few hours so far, the improvement over Ref 10 is quite significant (subjectively 20-25% better)

 

My setup - Mac Pro > Cisco 2960 > SPF > ER (with SE 120) > UltraRendu > Esoteric K05x (with SE 120)

That’s very interesting, thanks.

 

Have you evaluated the impact of the two Ref-10s on the EtherRegen only? If so what were your impressions?

[jamesg11]

18 hours ago, sgr said:

I will post pictures when I return from out of town. Between the tungsten and the Be Quiet they really transformed the unit. It really sounds like a much more expensive unit. 
 

One really didn’t notice the short comings of the stock clock but once you e implemented these two tweaks it’s even more awesome. 
 

I forgot to mention I also have been using 4 large Baby Booties on the bottom and for footers and two Supersonic Stabilizers from Herbie’s Audio Lab as well. But I had implemented these when I first purchased the clock. 

Same here, re the Herbies.

[ambre]

On 1/11/2021 at 12:53 PM, Ponkbutler said:

It's a pity PPA don't provide any phase noise measurements

Hi Ponkbutler and John S.

 

See below the measurements concerning Paul Pang master clock provided by the dealer in Belgium. 
How this compares to the Afterdark, Cybersaft etc I don’t know. There are several users in France, Belgium that use this Masterclock with the EtherRegen with much success.

Ps. The price is €999,00 without a decent supply. Sounds interesting 🧐 

Ps2. See link of the dealer is picture below.

 

 

Found also this Masterclock from well known company Paul Pang.

Does somebody tried this in combination with EtherRegen?

 

[Superdad]

15 minutes ago, ambre said:

See below the measurements concerning Paul Pang master clock provided by the dealer in Belgium. 
How this compares to the Afterdark, Cybersaft etc I don’t know.

 

 

 

For a 10MHz clock, -120dBc/Hz at 10Hz offset is not very impressive--especially since that is likely the specified performance of the OCXO clock itself and not what will be seen either at the BNC (internal cabling in these clocks is usually poor) or at the end of a clock cable.

 

For comparison, I'll quote myself from a couple of posts very early in this thread:

 

"The Crystal CCHD-575 [used in the EtherREGEN] is one of the lowest phase-noise production XO available (about $10 each at 500 piece qty,), and our 3 original 25MHz (random production) samples came with plots showing 10Hz-offset phase-noise of -108, -110, and -112 dBc/Hz.  (Crystek is very conservative and the graphs they post do not reflect these actual terrific production performance marks.) And remember, it is far easier to get better numbers from a 10MHz clock than a 25MHz clock, though they can be equivalent in terms of jitter/phase-noise.

 

-125dBc/Hz @10Hz is about what it takes for a 10Mhz clock to audibly surpass the EtherREGEN's 25.0MHz Crystek CCHD-575.  25.0MHz is 1.5 octaves above 10.0MHz, so its typical -110dBc/Hz (@ 10Hz offset) can be considered equivalent to -119dBc/Hz if it was a 10MHz clock (about 6dB/octave is safe to draw comparisons between frequencies). And it seems plausible that the adjusted-for-frequency difference of 6dB--between -119 and -125--would be about the threshold for what could be audible with our switch.

This assumes use of a good short clock cable, matched impedances, and use of square wave..."

 

[GMG]

One would seriously doubt the Chinese clock would even be close to these numbers and then the other would doubt that the numbers matter...

 

The Cybershaft platinum is -125db/Hz at 10Hz but it is a sine wave output. 
The after dark is also sine wave and the phase noise is not clear for an equivalent model. 
 

so is sine wave ok for ER? 
what is the compromise vs square?

[AfterDark.]

For 10M clock, we agreed with Alex that, the good OCXO Clock should be at least above -130dBc at 10Hz & -107dBc at 1Hz

 

The reference point is on -125dBc/Hz @10Hz is about what it takes for a 10Mhz clock to audibly surpass the EtherREGEN's. 

 

The OCXO performance can further tested by phase noise @ 1Hz and Allan Derivation which indicate short-term stability with respect to time (1s) 

 

 

For example, the above Phase Noise graph is measured by Symmetricom 5125A is showing phase noise of the OCXO clock is -140dBc@10Hz / -113dBC@1Hz. 

 

[R1200CL]

2 hours ago, AfterDark. said:

For example, the above Phase Noise graph is measured by Symmetricom 5125A is showing phase noise of the OCXO clock is -140dBc@10Hz / -113dBC@1Hz. 

Is this related to one specific model ?

 

Can a square wave version be made ?

[AfterDark.]

Yes, square wave version can be made too. The above example is mid-range model. 

 

The quality of OCXO clock is always on the sine wave - original version, it is because the square wave version is re-generated by sine wave with some jitter on re-generation, so in general the very good quality OCXO can only be found on the original form as sine wave version. 

 

When measured the phase noise with Symmetricom 5125A on sine wave OCXO, it can measure directly on the output BNC.

 

However, the phase noise cannot be direct measured by Symmetricom 5125A on square wave version, as it was re-generated by sine wave, it adds up fews unknown factors, so the phase noise measure cannot be performed directly on the output BNC.  

 

Therefore, some Audiophiles may prefers sine wave to square wave, as it can gives out more natural and laid back sounding, due to reduce Phase Noise and Allan Derivation which may caused by the conversion process from sine to square wave.

 

The square wave is better choice when the cable exceeding 3 meters, as the power / loading on square wave is higher compare to OCXO with sine wave. 

 

In addition, using the better quality BNC clock cable will improve the sounding on most system, as the better the cable, the less reflection inside.  

 

[GMG]

Which midrange ?

there are so many 🙂

 

Grade

PRINCE

QUEEN

KING

EMPEROR SIGNATURE

EMPEROR CROWN

EMPEROR DOUBLE CROWN

EMPEROR TRIPLE CROWN

EMPEROR GIESEMANN

EMPEROR GIESEMANN EVA

 

 

[ambre]

11 minutes ago, AfterDark. said:

Yes, square wave version can be made too. The above example is mid-range model. 

Hi Adrian,

 

which brand do you mean Giesemann and/or Cybershaft?

 

Please give more details which model / type  name is used to produce abovementioned graph?  
 

Is square - wave now pre-requisite in combination with the well specifiate EtherRegen?

 

Ps. Several people reported reported benefits also using sin-wave clocks ?!? How can?

 

Last statement for now if we need to use high end devices from Mutec or brands like Top model Cybershaft that cost between €3000<=> 5000,00 to grant a real uplift of the Uptone device of approx. € 650,00 than everbody has decide which route he prefers.

 

Recently I have upgraded my Auralic Vega G to G2.1 costing also  additionaly €3K but is very attractive in my subjective opinion / judgement. Plus additional features 😍 too.

 

What is “common ”  sense at all? 

[AfterDark.]

Hi Ambre,

 

The square wave version can be made for Giesemann.

The above graph is from the mid-range is Emperor CROWN.

Square & Wave is working well with EtherREGEN, but they are different sounding

 

We suggest to use quality OCXO which around the price range vs EtherREGEN. 

[R1200CL]

7 minutes ago, AfterDark. said:

We suggest to use quality OCXO which around the price range vs EtherREGEN. 

Interesting 

Would a DC version lower the price ?

[GMG]

Thanks Adrian

few more questions:

1. Is the crown 50ohm or 75ohm?

2. Pictures show 2 sockets on front. Does the clock have 2 outputs?

3. Back shows 1 iec and 2dc inputs. Can you explain the usage?

 

many thanks

 

 

[AfterDark.]

Dear GMG,

 

1. All model is 50ohm, adaptor to 75ohm can be bundle for members.

2. This one is the linear power supply to power up the Giesemann.

3. Dual 12V DC outputs. 

[R1200CL]

@AfterDark.

Is it the same clock in all variants? And if yes, is it possible to explain what makes the difference?

 

[AfterDark.]

The lower the phase noise (more negative), the better the OCXO Clock can performed.