Master Clock for your EtherREGEN

[GMG]

Since Mutec is now on the table, I would be grateful if someone could clarify some points and give some opinion from 1st hand experience

 

First, did I correctly understand the function of MC3?

1. Re-clock digital signal with native internal clock
2. Can accept external 10Mhz clock for further enhancement of re-clocking
3. Can distribute the connected 10Mhz clock to additional devices
4. Can convert various digital inputs connections (USB to Coax, Coax to AES, etc.)
5. Can also provide 44.1KHz, and 48KHz based clock signals.

 

Second is usage: based on Etherregen-->network player-->DAC

1. Which will provide bigger improvement: 
   1. High quality 10Mhz clock to ER (Cybershaft/Afterdark, Or:
   2. Mutec to re-clock before the DAC
2. If adding both Mutec and high quality 10M clock to chain, Etherregen-->network player-->Mutec+Clock-->DAC, will connecting the clock to Mutec and then from the Mutec back to Ethereregen defeat the Moat of side B?

 

Many Thanks

[JohnSwenson]

Hi guys,

I just finished writing the first pass of my clock paper and sent it to Alex. He wants to do a little editing before posting it. He is on vacation with his wife right now, it will be sometime next week before he can get it posted.

 

The information in this paper is very important for choosing clocks, cables etc. I strongly recommend you wait and read this before spending a lot of money buying clocks and cables.

 

John S.

[sky176]

DUPA is used up. They provide me with Symmetricom 159-00057-000. The seller told me that he could change it from sine wave to square wave. Anyone brother know about it? 

[AfterDark.]

11 hours ago, GMG said:

Since Mutec is now on the table, I would be grateful if someone could clarify some points and give some opinion from 1st hand experience

 

First, did I correctly understand the function of MC3?

1. Re-clock digital signal with native internal clock
2. Can accept external 10Mhz clock for further enhancement of re-clocking
3. Can distribute the connected 10Mhz clock to additional devices
4. Can convert various digital inputs connections (USB to Coax, Coax to AES, etc.)
5. Can also provide 44.1KHz, and 48KHz based clock signals.

 

Second is usage: based on Etherregen-->network player-->DAC

1. Which will provide bigger improvement: 
   1. High quality 10Mhz clock to ER (Cybershaft/Afterdark, Or:
   2. Mutec to re-clock before the DAC
2. If adding both Mutec and high quality 10M clock to chain, Etherregen-->network player-->Mutec+Clock-->DAC, will connecting the clock to Mutec and then from the Mutec back to Ethereregen defeat the Moat of side B?

 

Many Thanks

 

First, did I correctly understand the function of MC3?

1. Re-clock digital signal with native internal clock? Yes
2. Can accept external 10Mhz clock for further enhancement of re-clocking? Yes it can accept 10M Master Clock
3. Can distribute the connected 10Mhz clock to additional devices? However, it do not have 10M Master Clock output for additional devices.
4. Can convert various digital inputs connections (USB to Coax, Coax to AES, etc.)? Yes, it have AES, Coaxial, Optical output, so they can output at the same time. it is pro machine, it works perfectly. 
5. Can also provide 44.1KHz, and 48KHz based clock signals? Yes, if you have a very good CD transport/DAT machine, this can all benefit with the world clock from Mutec, which was generated by 10M Master Clock. 

Second is usage: based on Etherregen-->network player-->DAC

1. Which will provide bigger improvement: 
   1. High quality 10Mhz clock to ER (Cybershaft/Afterdark, Or:
   2. Mutec to re-clock before the DAC

 

The Mutec MC3-USB is different machine compared with switch, it can removes all the digital feelings, which make music more organic, more laid back. The mid-range is lush & airy, bass is more authority and controlled. 

 

UpTone EtherREGEN is an excellent to bring the dynamic and details from the network, streaming like Roon, Qobuz, Tidal,  Spotify can all benefit with it. 

 

The Master Clock just bring all the factors and improvement to another levels, depends on the quality of OCXO Master Clock, of course we agreed with John, the building and material used in the clock cable and BNC connectors are all matters to ensure the optimisation for 10M signal to work perfectly too. 

 

We have perform testing on different brand of BNC clock cables, they have their own sounding, the BNC plug is very important. We prefer to use the HUBER + SUHNER, this is the most natural sounding which frequency range is exceeding the requirement for 10M. 

 

1. If adding both Mutec and high quality 10M clock to chain, Etherregen-->network player-->Mutec+Clock-->DAC, will connecting the clock to Mutec and then from the Mutec back to Ethereregen defeat the Moat of side B?

 

We can demonstrate this setting with YouTube, if anyone is interested. 

[JohnSwenson]

11 hours ago, GMG said:

Since Mutec is now on the table, I would be grateful if someone could clarify some points and give some opinion from 1st hand experience

 

First, did I correctly understand the function of MC3?

1. Re-clock digital signal with native internal clock
2. Can accept external 10Mhz clock for further enhancement of re-clocking
3. Can distribute the connected 10Mhz clock to additional devices
4. Can convert various digital inputs connections (USB to Coax, Coax to AES, etc.)
5. Can also provide 44.1KHz, and 48KHz based clock signals.

 

Second is usage: based on Etherregen-->network player-->DAC

1. Which will provide bigger improvement: 
   1. High quality 10Mhz clock to ER (Cybershaft/Afterdark, Or:
   2. Mutec to re-clock before the DAC
2. If adding both Mutec and high quality 10M clock to chain, Etherregen-->network player-->Mutec+Clock-->DAC, will connecting the clock to Mutec and then from the Mutec back to Ethereregen defeat the Moat of side B?

 

Many Thanks

First off what is your DAC and what inputs does it have?

Are you looking at an MC3, an MC3+ or MC3+ USB?

 

The MC3 is the basic model, it takes in an S/PDIF stream (or similar streams), extracts the clock, uses that to synchronize a clock synthesizer, which is used to reclock the S/PDIF stream and send it out. The MC3+ adds a better clock synthesizer and some more output stream types. The USB adds a USB receiver that outputs an S/PDIF stream into the rest of the circuit. It also adds DSD over USB input.

 

The output is an S/PDIF (or similar stream) that goes to your DAC. This then has to go into the S/PDIF receiver in your DAC. These can vary all over the place. Very few S/PDIF receivers, even if fed from an MC3(+ USB) will output a clock anywhere close. The MC3 gets around this by outputting either a master clock or actual word clocks that a very few DACs can use. This gets around having to deal with the clock quality coming out of the S/PDIF receiver in the DAC. A few are pretty good, most are not so great. BUT this only works if the DAC takes a word clock or master clock.

 

Note a master clock is different than a reference clock (I know very confusing). A reference clock is usually 10MHz and is used as a reference tor a clock synthesizer which generates the actual frequencies for audio. A master clock is usually a multiple of the common audio frequencies, usually 22.5792 MHz or 24.576 MHz, the first used for 44.1KHz and multiples, the second for 48KHz and multiples.

 

Will the MC3 S/PDIF out to your DAC (assuming it has an S/PDIF input) sound better than going in through a USB input on the DAC? Who knows, that is very much dependent on how the S/PDIF receiver and the USB receiver are implemented. There is no way to make any generalizations.

 

Since the EtherREGEN external clock is a Reference clock and the MC3 outputs word clocks or master clocks, you can't use the output from the MC3 into the EtherREGEN. You COULD use the same 10MHz reference clock to feed both. Doing so would NOT bypass the moat in the EtherREGEN.

 

Because of the variability of S/PDIF receiver circuits using a good reference clock with the MC3 may not improve anything. IF your DAC uses a clock output from the MC3 then an external reference clock WILL probably make an improvement.

 

I know it's all still up in the air. IF your DAC takes either a word clock or a master clock, then using the MC3 will have a high probability of being a good thing. If it doesn't, it might improve things, it might not. It may even make things worse.

 

John S.

[GMG]

Thanks John 

I was referring to the MC3+usb

my DAC is the Chord Qutest

it has 2 S/Pdif inputs that can be used in tandem (for use with Chord’s upscaler), 

 

[GMG]

3 hours ago, AfterDark. said:

 

First, did I correctly understand the function of MC3?

1. Re-clock digital signal with native internal clock? Yes
2. Can accept external 10Mhz clock for further enhancement of re-clocking? Yes it can accept 10M Master Clock
3. Can distribute the connected 10Mhz clock to additional devices? However, it do not have 10M Master Clock output for additional devices.
4. Can convert various digital inputs connections (USB to Coax, Coax to AES, etc.)? Yes, it have AES, Coaxial, Optical output, so they can output at the same time. it is pro machine, it works perfectly. 
5. Can also provide 44.1KHz, and 48KHz based clock signals? Yes, if you have a very good CD transport/DAT machine, this can all benefit with the world clock from Mutec, which was generated by 10M Master Clock. 

Second is usage: based on Etherregen-->network player-->DAC

1. Which will provide bigger improvement: 
   1. High quality 10Mhz clock to ER (Cybershaft/Afterdark, Or:
   2. Mutec to re-clock before the DAC

 

The Mutec MC3-USB is different machine compared with switch, it can removes all the digital feelings, which make music more organic, more laid back. The mid-range is lush & airy, bass is more authority and controlled. 

 

UpTone EtherREGEN is an excellent to bring the dynamic and details from the network, streaming like Roon, Qobuz, Tidal,  Spotify can all benefit with it. 

 

The Master Clock just bring all the factors and improvement to another levels, depends on the quality of OCXO Master Clock, of course we agreed with John, the building and material used in the clock cable and BNC connectors are all matters to ensure the optimisation for 10M signal to work perfectly too. 

 

We have perform testing on different brand of BNC clock cables, they have their own sounding, the BNC plug is very important. We prefer to use the HUBER + SUHNER, this is the most natural sounding which frequency range is exceeding the requirement for 10M. 

 

1. If adding both Mutec and high quality 10M clock to chain, Etherregen-->network player-->Mutec+Clock-->DAC, will connecting the clock to Mutec and then from the Mutec back to Ethereregen defeat the Moat of side B?

 

We can demonstrate this setting with YouTube, if anyone is interested. 

Thanks a lot for the detailed answer

just to to make sure I understood, the Mutec can only output word clock but can’t output a master clock. It can’t distribute the input of a master 10MHz, it can only use the 10MHz to improve the distribution of the word clock?

 

so if I have a single output from a 10MHz master clock I can use it to feed both ER and Mutec. Is that right? (I thought maybe the clock could go into Mutec and then out of the Mutec to the ER)

[AfterDark.]

15 minutes ago, GMG said:

Thanks a lot for the detailed answer

just to to make sure I understood, the Mutec can only output word clock but can’t output a master clock. It can’t distribute the input of a master 10MHz, it can only use the 10MHz to improve the distribution of the word clock?

 

so if I have a single output from a 10MHz master clock I can use it to feed both ER and Mutec. Is that right? (I thought maybe the clock could go into Mutec and then out of the Mutec to the ER)

 

Yes, there is a transformer type 10M distributor adaptor made by Cybershaft. This adaptor can make make 2 outputs of 10M signal. So that you can use them on EtherREGEN and Mutec MC3-USB with the same 10M Clock. 

 

 

 

[GMG]

4 minutes ago, AfterDark. said:

 

Yes, there is a transformer type 10M distributor adaptor made by Cybershaft. This adaptor can make make 2 outputs of 10M signal. So that you can use them on EtherREGEN and Mutec MC3-USB with the same 10M Clock. 

 

 

 

Thanks. 
interesting. 
but I would assume such a splitter might degrade some of the performance? Maybe increase a bit the phase distortion?

 

or is this similar to what would be implement internally in a clock with multiple outputs ?

[AfterDark.]

20 minutes ago, GMG said:

Thanks. 
interesting. 
but I would assume such a splitter might degrade some of the performance? Maybe increase a bit the phase distortion?

 

or is this similar to what would be implement internally in a clock with multiple outputs ?

 

Since it is a transformer type, it can be distributed with almost no deterioration in clock quality.

The adaptor was certified with measuring the SWR for each unit and checking the characteristics.

[MartinT]

As previously posted, I am using the BG7TBL DAPU OCXO clock for both the ER and Mutec MC-3+ USB. After many trials, I can confirm that it enhances the performance of both. It is a better clock than the internal Mutec one to my ears.

 

I am using Canare LV-77S cables, very short 30cm ones, 75 ohm matched throughout. High quality linear PSU, soon to be further improved by swapping to a Coherent supercap PSU being built for me.

[R1200CL]

2 hours ago, MartinT said:

As previously posted, I am using the BG7TBL DAPU OCXO clock for both the ER and Mutec MC-3+ USB. After many trials, I can confirm that it enhances the performance of both. It is a better clock than the internal Mutec one to my ears.

Are you using Mutec MC-3+USB as a USB reclocker or as a USB/SPDIF converter ?

 

Won’t using the clock possible break the moat of the EtherRegen ?

 

[pietka08]

Hello
I am a new ER user from Poland. I power the ER with Farad s3 - I bought it all after reading your opinions. Thank you, because these great devices give me a great improvement in SQ. But going further, I am waiting for the delivery of BG7TBL and here is my question, because I do not know anything about it. I have a spare power supply from my Auralic Aries, can I power it with BG7TBL

[Rasputin]

12 hours ago, MartinT said:

As previously posted, I am using the BG7TBL DAPU OCXO clock for both the ER and Mutec MC-3+ USB. After many trials, I can confirm that it enhances the performance of both. It is a better clock than the internal Mutec one to my ears.

 

I am using Canare LV-77S cables, very short 30cm ones, 75 ohm matched throughout. High quality linear PSU, soon to be further improved by swapping to a Coherent supercap PSU being built for me.

I need to say a lot of thanks to MartinT, I did exactly as he did and now the music is amazingly live....something I was looking for. For a couple of hundred bucks such an improvement. Thank you Martin.  I run Emm Labs NS1 streamer and DV2 Dac and this China 200 backs hardware:))) amazing !

[MartinT]

The BG7TBL requires 12V at around 2A for safety (it's rated at 18W).

 

So the answer is no.

[MartinT]

11 hours ago, R1200CL said:

Are you using Mutec MC-3+USB as a USB reclocker or as a USB/SPDIF converter ?

 

Won’t using the clock possible break the moat of the EtherRegen ?

 

 

I am feeding the LKS DAC with AES so yes, it's reclocking and USB/SPDIF converting.

 

Yes, I'm aware that I'm potentially breaking the moat via the clock cables. However, it sounds best with both reclockers fed from the master clock.

[pietka08]

40 minutes ago, MartinT said:

BG7TBL wymaga 12 V przy około 2 A dla bezpieczeństwa (ma moc 18 W).

 

Więc odpowiedź brzmi: nie.

Thank you very much.
So I do not have a power supply for BG7TBL. I think the best option is Farad 12V to BG7TBL, and ER with its power supply. Sorry to litter the subject.

[R1200CL]

On 1/22/2021 at 10:15 PM, pietka08 said:

Thank you very much.
So I do not have a power supply for BG7TBL. I think the best option is Farad 12V to BG7TBL, and ER with its power supply. Sorry to litter the subject.

Farad is OK, but you may consider Uptone LPS 1.2 (I’m using serial of LPS 1), or Paul Hynes SR4T. 
These are all more expensive PS than your clock. There is good cheaper options. Like Gophert. 

[R1200CL]

On 1/22/2021 at 9:32 PM, MartinT said:

Yes, I'm aware that I'm potentially breaking the moat via the clock cables. However, it sounds best with both reclockers fed from the master clock.

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/57686-the-etherregen-thread-for-various-network-cable-power-experiences-and-experiments/?do=findComment&comment=1104439

 

On 1/22/2021 at 9:32 PM, MartinT said:

I am feeding the LKS DAC with AES so yes, it's reclocking and USB/SPDIF converting.

I’m also using a converter (Singxer SU1). I’m hoping one of products John is developing is a ethernet to SPDIF converter. Or at least a USB to SPDIF converter. Both with external clock input. 
Also, if a new version of opticalRendu is coming, I would expect it would have external clock input. 
(Or a Rendu with SPDIF AES/EBU out).

 

In any case I see a need for a clock with isolated outputs or several clocks. Minimum 2, possible 3 outputs. Square wave. 
And it may be nice if such a clock could use 7V input, so the LPS 1 can be used.

So I’m waiting to see what products will come, hopefully during 2021, and then maybe upgrade my clock. 
AfterDark’s clocks seems to be best option. I just hope a new version can be made later this year.
 

 

 

 

[Ponkbutler]

17 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

In any case I see a need for a clock with isolated outputs or several clocks. Minimum 2, possible 3 outputs. Square wave. 

Doesn’t that describe the Mutec Ref-10 and SE clocks? Or are their outputs not isolated?

[AfterDark.]

1 hour ago, R1200CL said:

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/57686-the-etherregen-thread-for-various-network-cable-power-experiences-and-experiments/?do=findComment&comment=1104439

 

I’m also using a converter (Singxer SU1). I’m hoping one of products John is developing is a ethernet to SPDIF converter. Or at least a USB to SPDIF converter. Both with external clock input. 
Also, if a new version of opticalRendu is coming, I would expect it would have external clock input. 
(Or a Rendu with SPDIF AES/EBU out).

 

In any case I see a need for a clock with isolated outputs or several clocks. Minimum 2, possible 3 outputs. Square wave. 
And it may be nice if such a clock could use 7V input, so the LPS 1 can be used.

So I’m waiting to see what products will come, hopefully during 2021, and then maybe upgrade my clock. 
AfterDark’s clocks seems to be best option. I just hope a new version can be made later this year.
 

 

 

 

 

Hi! R1200CL,

 

Last week, we designed and build a 3 outputs model for you. They are all isolated, 10M Master out with Square Wave @75ohm. The linear power supply will be build in for this combo outputs version. 

 

The new model with specification will be released later next week. Therefore, the 10M clock can connected to UpTone EtherREGEN, Mutec MC3-USB, or one additional device at the same time. 

[pietka08]

12 hours ago, R1200CL said:

 Są dobre tańsze opcje. Jak Gophert. 

There are many Gophert models, will this one be good?

https://pl.aliexpress.com/item/33022375898.html?spm=a2g0o.search0302.0.0.1db944cb0oEYUg&algo_pvid=355f3508-5b06-4063-bf20-f99950e16c5c&algo_expid=355f3508-5b06-4063-bf20-f99950e16c5c-5&btsid=2100bdf016114817611513460ef6d7&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_,searchweb201603_

[R1200CL]

1 hour ago, AfterDark. said:

Last week, we designed and build a 3 outputs model for you. They are all isolated, 10M Master out with Square Wave @75ohm. The linear power supply will be build in for this combo outputs version. 

Sounds great. I hope a 2.1 mm DC plug is added if one like to bypass your build in LPS. However I’m still thinking an pure DC version will save money, or possibly give an option to better clock for the same money. 
 

What can this new clock be compared with in your present available clock options ?

 

[R1200CL]

21 minutes ago, pietka08 said:

There are many Gophert models, will this one be good?

https://audiophilestyle.com/search/?q=Gophert&author=Cornan&updated_after=any&sortby=newest&search_and_or=and

Gophert csp-3205II should be good enough. Use the treads I linked to for more questions. 

[R1200CL]

On 1/14/2021 at 11:43 PM, FIndingit said:

R-core, EI and split bobbin transformers often vibrate, maybe not in the factory, but when imported to 230V countries they do. Toroids less, in my experience. A vibrating transformer in the same chassis next to the clock module would be disastrous. 

Thanks, hence why I like to eliminate internal 220 VAC in a clock. Also good transformers can be expensive, and since digital circuits have special power demands, and more critical than analog circuits, I really like to use me own supply in digital equipment.

 

As an example, JS-2, Paul Hynes SR4T, and LPS-1.2 gives an indication of price range of quality PS needed to be implemented in a clock. This is more or less the only PS I trust in my digital chain. Farad may also be good.

 

@MartinT use of tungsten and isolations is to me a prove that vibration can be an issue even without a transformer inside the clock.