Article: UpTone Audio EtherREGEN Review and Comparison

[austinpop]

7 minutes ago, rhmmmm said:

With a QKORE coming, my next question is...should I ground the EtherREGEN to it using a spade to the ground terminal? or should I use an RJ45 grounding cable to a port on the 4-port side?

 

I'm assuming the ground terminal with spade would be the best option?

 

I have no experience with the QKORE, but with grounding solutions, you just have to experiment. I would think a spade on the grounding post would be best, but easy enough to try it both ways...

[Puma Cat]

14 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

Look forward to reading your review.

 

I got them from Amazon, but the pricing seems to fluctuate: 

• Transceivers: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0747WZ8LZ
• 10dB Attenuators: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07R5D72JL

 

Hi Rajev,

My articles will be in the May/June issues of TAS. One on the Gold Note PH-10 and one on streaming using optical fiber. 

 

Thanks for the information on the optical transceivers. 

[Puma Cat]

13 hours ago, kennyb123 said:

I appreciate the kind words, Rajiv.  My experiments continued and I have actually moved on from the Startech FMCs.  I’m now using the Planet Technology SFPs without attenuators as listed here.  My upstream FMC is now the opticalModule and downstream it’s the ER. Clarity and focus improved with the Planet Tech SFPs - I think partly due to them not needing attenuators.  The OM also offered a nice improvement over the Startech FMC.  I can honestly say that I am done as far as trying different SFPs. The next step for me will be to get better power supplies for both the ER and OM.  Rajiv it was really helpful that you provided observations on the use of different power supplies with the ER.  I’ll probably go with the Farad for the ER.  

Thanks for the info, Kenny! 

[Puma Cat]

12 hours ago, McDills said:

First of all, TL;DR.  L2BREVITY.

 

Second of all, noone uses a nas or computer to stream anymore.  Look into dedicated audiophile libraries like melco or innuous.  Off the shelf computers just don't cut the audiophile mustard anymore.

I do, and my system sounds exceptional. Lots of people use Intel NUCs as music servers for streaming very effectively.

 

All an Innuous does is put a lot of high-bandwidth noise from its CPU into other components in the audio rack. Moreover, this high-bandwidth noise from these CPUs is picked up by unshielded speaker cables, which acts an antennas for high-bandwidth noise and is fed backwards into the power amp, only to be re-amplified as noise. 

 

The best thing you can with respect to any music server is to locate it as far away from the audio rack as possible. Mine is 40 feet away from the audio rack, I run fiber from it to the network bridge. 

[Le Concombre Masqué]

5 hours ago, Nenon said:

Can't disagree with the importance of the room. I give the room 50% in my system. It's more important than any single component. 

I'm not in headphones for ages, so went over Harman's et al research in a swift, but it seems that, even more than room correction, headphone correction is needed since most masterings are done for and with speakers in rooms where room gain lifts the LF. Since Rajiv does not mention any such thing and since I've only seen headphones in his equipment, I hope he's not spending fortunes in minute details to compensate for a way off in very measurable decibels in ears response. 

[auricgoldfinger]

8 minutes ago, Le Concombre Masqué said:

I'm not in headphones for ages, so went over Harman's et al research in a swift, but it seems that, even more than room correction, headphone correction is needed since most masterings are done for and with speakers in rooms where room gain lifts the LF. Since Rajiv does not mention any such thing and since I've only seen headphones in his equipment, I hope he's not spending fortunes in minute details to compensate for a way off in very measurable decibels in ears response. 

 

Maybe you should actually read the review before continuing to post such uninformed comments.

[The Computer Audiophile]

8 minutes ago, Le Concombre Masqué said:

I'm not in headphones for ages, so went over Harman's et al research in a swift, but it seems that, even more than room correction, headphone correction is needed since most masterings are done for and with speakers in rooms where room gain lifts the LF. Since Rajiv does not mention any such thing and since I've only seen headphones in his equipment, I hope he's not spending fortunes in minute details to compensate for a way off in very measurable decibels in ears response. 

You're out of your element. Headphone cross-feed and "correction" has been tried for decades and the market has always rejected it. 

[kennyb123]

1 hour ago, Puma Cat said:

All an Innuous does is put a lot of high-bandwidth noise from its CPU into other components in the audio rack. Moreover, this high-bandwidth noise from these CPUs is picked up by unshielded speaker cables, which acts an antennas for high-bandwidth noise and is fed backwards into the power amp, only to be re-amplified as noise. 

 

The best thing you can with respect to any music server is to locate it as far away from the audio rack as possible. Mine is 40 feet away from the audio rack, I run fiber from it to the network bridge. 

 

This is really good advice - advice that I should actually follow.  In my case the two noise generators are my Innuos server and Hugo M-Scaler.  My OPTO-DX provides me with the ability to place these I think up to 5m away from the rest of my gear using an optical connection.  One of these days.

[austinpop]

May I ask how any of this is relevant to the topic at hand? You seem to want to debate room correction and/or headphone equalization in thread about an ethernet switch review. 

 

40 minutes ago, Le Concombre Masqué said:

Since Rajiv does not mention any such thing and since I've only seen headphones in his equipment, I hope he's not spending fortunes in minute details

 

Trust me, he's not. (Referring to myself in the 3rd person. )

 

[kennyb123]

30 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Headphone cross-feed and "correction" has been tried for decades and the market has always rejected it. 

 

The DAVE has a cross-feed feature, as does my TT2.  I do think that some Chord headphone users appreciate having this feature.  I don't do headphone listening with my TT2 so I have no opinion on this feature. 

[Puma Cat]

10 minutes ago, kennyb123 said:

 

This is really good advice - advice that I should actually follow.  In my case the two noise generators are my Innuos server and Hugo M-Scaler.  My OPTO-DX provides me with the ability to place these I think up to 5m away from the rest of my gear using an optical connection.  One of these days.

Yep, it really makes a difference. A difference that is audible. Back in 2016 when Chris was accurately espousing the virtues of the Sonore microRendu, as soon as I got one and placed my Mac Mini in the bedroom/study 40 feet away, the audible benefits are clear. If you can run fiber, this will make moving your Innuous that much easier and more feasible. 

[Le Concombre Masqué]

37 minutes ago, austinpop said:

May I ask how any of this is relevant to the topic at hand? You seem to want to debate room correction and/or headphone equalization in thread about an ethernet switch review. 

 

 

Trust me, he's not. (Referring to myself in the 3rd person. )

 

no no I do want to debate room correction and/or headphone equalization in thread about an ethernet switch review. 

I meant : compared to x change, if x change yields a 10 difference out a scale of 10, then y change has  a zyx value, that is.... i picked headphone equalization as an example for x, etherregen being the y ; pick whatever you want in place of headphone equalization, ie, a change of  SPL by volume selector we all have one place or another.

It's a general issue I have with any review : how to scale what a change brings compared to other types of changes.

Maybe this could be an hygiene for any review : once we have found huge differences through whatever gear or setting, let's listen 1 or 2 dB softer and louder and recalibrate our impressions

 

[austinpop]

11 minutes ago, Le Concombre Masqué said:

It's a general issue I have with any review : how to scale what a change brings compared to other types of changes.

 

That's a fair point, and something I'm very aware of. The language of describing sonic differences can exaggerate the magnitude. Hopefully you actually read my review, but if you just skimmed, please do take a look at my Reflections section, where I talk to exactly this point.

[Le Concombre Masqué]

17 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

That's a fair point, and something I'm very aware of. The language of describing sonic differences can exaggerate the magnitude. Hopefully you actually read my review, but if you just skimmed, please do take a look at my Reflections section, where I talk to exactly this point.

And you do it very well

[yyz]

I do not think this is off topic, but if so my apologies.

 

If a DAC had a fibre optic input, like the Lumin X1, would something like the eR be needed? Assuming you used a good fibre switch from you router, such as this one.

 

https://www.ui.com/unifi-switching/unifi-switch-8-150w/

 

 I am debating between the following 2 DAC's:

 

1) Mola Mola Makua or Tamaqui DAC  (plus 1 of)

  a. RJ45 streaming + eR

  b. USB streaming + Sonore Signiture Rendu SE Optical 

 

2) Lumin X1 with fibre optic streaming.

 

I have limited experience in this but my understanding is that the fibre optical cable eliminates all analog noise that can cause degradation in sound.

[The Computer Audiophile]

3 minutes ago, yyz said:

I do not think this is off topic, but if so my apologies.

 

If a DAC had a fibre optic input, like the Lumin X1, would something like the eR be needed? Assuming you used a good fibre switch from you router, such as this one.

 

https://www.ui.com/unifi-switching/unifi-switch-8-150w/

 

 I am debating between the following 2 DAC's:

 

1) Mola Mola Makua or Tamaqui DAC  (plus 1 of)

  a. RJ45 streaming + eR

  b. USB streaming + Sonore Signiture Rendu SE Optical 

 

2) Lumin X1 with fibre optic streaming.

 

I have limited experience in this but my understanding is that the fibre optical cable eliminates all analog noise that can cause degradation in sound.

I used fiber directly from a Ubiquiti switch to the X1 with great results. I now run fiber to the Sonore Signature Rendu SE optical. 

[Superdad]

4 minutes ago, yyz said:

If a DAC had a fibre optic input, like the Lumin X1, would something like the eR be needed? Assuming you used a good fibre switch from you router, such as this one.

.....

I have limited experience in this but my understanding is that the fibre optical cable eliminates all analog noise that can cause degradation in sound.

 

This question has come up before, so it was included in the Q&A at the end of our paper:

Q. What about fiber-optic interfaces? Don’t these block everything?

A. In the case of a pure optical input (zero metal connection), this does block leakage current, but it does not block phase-noise affects. The optical connection is like any other isolator: jitter on the input is transmitted down the fiber and shows up at the receiver. If the receiver reclocks the data with a local clock, you still have the effects of the ground plane-noise from the data causing threshold changes on the reclocking circuit, thus overlaying on top of the local clock.

 

A good number of people have already reported on their use of the EtherREGEN (in B>A direction) to feed their optical-input streamers (opticalRendu and Taiko Extreme), thus demonstrating the effectiveness of our isolation/reclocking "moat."  

And among the tests that John is running (measuring phase-noise at the DAC's clock pin), he may include EtherREGEN>opticalRend>DAC to show the effect.

[OldBigEars]

Where's @plissken?  We need a a proper scientific evaluation. LOL

[Discopants]

Wow , what a herculean review Rajiv, so much ground covered , this must have taken you days to compile. Very well put across , I already have the eR but i will come back to this as a reference if I should add to my relatively simple system.

 

Many thanks for the review.

 

I have a question for the readers who have more experience than myself on providing clean power to audio devices.

 

Im running a choke based Isotek Sigmas gen 2 in my system. I have the standard supplied eR power pack plugged into the sigmas as well as my apple TV, Lyngdorf TDAI3400, my Sony TV and my REL subwoofer.
 

Would I still potentially gain some benefit from adding an LPS to the eR ? From reading JS’s paper I’m thinking yes , but would be interested in others opinions. 😃

[k-man]

Despite a growing number of etherREGEN users who are reporting benefits with better power supplies, I still don't quite understand why this is so. The white paper unfortunately doesn't have an answer to this, as well as the initial claims that it shouldn't make a difference. I'm glad to have read the PS comparisons here, since not everyone has that many of them at their disposal. With the design of the etherREGEN, I expected it to protect the high-source-impedance leakage coming from its own PS.

I've sussed why Taiko Extreme users are avoiding the B moat, why choosing the right SFP (eg Planet tech>Startech) matters for the etherREGEN with lots of reading (and over-reading) at WBF, but I hope to get a satisfactory explanation about power supplies from anyone.

[Superdad]

12 minutes ago, k-man said:

...I hope to get a satisfactory explanation about power supplies from anyone.

 

Well very low output impedance (over a wide bandwidth) from a power supply is always a benefit to digital devices.  And despite our having $70 (our cost per board even at 500 unit runs) in ultra-ultra-low-noise/ultra-low-impedance regs and power networks on each EtherREGEN, a find power supply still helps a little.  Not much mystery there. 

 

Also, here is a quote from John's answer to a similar question that Rajiv posed in an e-mail. Not specific to the EtherREGEN, so not included in our paper.  But quite germane to your question:

 

It IS eventually jitter related, but is different from what I talked about with DATA issues. When the digital circuits do their things they draw current from the supply, how much and for how long varies a LOT. If the entire power network cannot properly supply the current the load wants, the voltage on the positive supply rail (note it is NOT the ground plane this time) will sag thus changing the thresholds in circuits, thus causing timing changes (jitter). The lower the output impedance, the smaller these changes are and the less the jitter related to power supplies.

Note this is dynamic impedance, which contains how fast the power network can deliver charge, but also how long it can deliver it for. A lot of power supplies have a "bump" in the impedance curve, they can rapidly supply changing loads, but they can't maintain it for longer periods. This is cause by properly balanced capacitance and inductance for high speed response, but the capacitance is not high enough to maintain the extra load for long, it needs to be "recharged" by current from the AC mains section. In a lot of designs this cannot respond fast enough to keep the capacitors charged up when high current load increases occur. After awhile the AC mains section "catches up" and can supply the needed current, but there is a period of time when the charge in the capacitors is being depleted and not being recharged fast enough.

[k-man]

@Superdad I hope JS can measure the difference between stock PS and JS-2 PS when powering the etherREGEN. Thanks for responding 

[so-no-mah]

During over 50 years in this hobby, I have learned that Everything Matters. I wish that it didn't, but  it does. 

 

The term expectation bias gets thrown around a lot around these parts, but it cuts both ways. There are those who expect that nothing other than a source component, an amplifier or a loudspeaker can possibly make a difference. Expecting no audible changes in results from swapping or adding any element of your system, yet not trying something out there despite the offer of a free trial presents another set of limitations.

 

Dismissing any well-engineered product out of hand, just seems dumb to me. Unless  of course you're not really serious about the getting the best presentation of your music you can achieve in your home (given your budget of course). 

 

I have been listening to AudioStream podcasts lately on my daily hikes, most recently interviews with the likes of Ted Smith (PS Audio), Rob Watts (Chord), Gordon Rankin (Wavelength), Vince Galbo (MSB) or Bob Stuart (Meridian+MQA), Put John's White Paper in the mix as well. All are pursuing perfection in very different ways technically, but pay attention and you begin to realize that they are all saying much the same thing.

 

Over very long careers, they have developed deep deep knowledge about why Everything Matters. 

 

Why noise can ride on the signal not really affecting the bits, but how--and more importantly when--the shift from zero to one occurs.

 

Why humans can detect the absence of transient and harmonic content well above the limits of our hearing in the frequency domain. A plain reading of John's White Paper explains why.

 

Few of my friends are audiophiles, but to a one they love music. And they want to experience their favorite music at my house.

 

Yeah at first they might roll their eyes at the array of boxes large and small, but when they're in the sweet spot and you hand them the iPad controlling Roon, you know that they're gonna be there for a while. with a big smile on their faces. And why after they depart, why I might spend another hour or so listening to music that moves me the most.

[The Computer Audiophile]

Those seeking to discuss objective testing of the EtherREGEN can continue in the Objective-Fi sub-forum topic. 
 

This topic was created, then moved per the AS rules, with a reader comment discussing objective tests. 

 

 

[Confused]

11 hours ago, k-man said:

I've sussed why Taiko Extreme users are avoiding the B moat

This puzzles me, can you explain?  Maybe it is not an easy one to explain, but I am intrigued.