CD players are back ?

[opus101]

In part because interpolation is of no use at all when the data's not audio.

[alfe]

Interpolation is bit perfect?

[opus101]

Nope - its a way to conceal errors, not correct them. Incidentally I didn't accept your premise that CD was indeed 'bit perfect'. Its not, obviously but comes close enough for practical purposes. Bit perfect is though required for computer data, hence the extra layer of EC.

[alfe]

Philips marketing is strong🤔

[audiobomber]

16 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

what is a "computer transport"?? 

What is a “Transport”

Basically you have your music on the cloud or on your PC/NAS. If it’s on the cloud , you will use your smartphone to access your account and play. From your smartphone, in order to send the music to your DAC (DACs have USB and/or S/PDIF inputs) you need a transport that will be visible (to your smartphone / tablet /PC) as an Airplay device (iOS ) or UPNP/DLNA (Android/PC).

https://allo.com/sparky-transport.html

 

[crenca]

17 hours ago, ajay556 said:

There are sever

Bit perfect (which includes clock)  does not exist in real life  music - -if computer was bit perfect then innuos would not be selling 15k computer transports. There is only less bit imperfection with  better power supplies and clocks. A simple computer is completely bit imperfect.

 

This statement prompted my first use of the "funny" upvote!

[marce]

17 hours ago, ajay556 said:

There are sever

Bit perfect (which includes clock)  does not exist in real life  music - -if computer was bit perfect then innuos would not be selling 15k computer transports. There is only less bit imperfection with  better power supplies and clocks. A simple computer is completely bit imperfect.

Total rubbish...

[marce]

9 hours ago, ajay556 said:

bit perfect concept works when you are loading a word document. Bit perfect in music has another variable  - time...and their lies the problem. So it has no meaning if bit perfect is being retrieved and sent to the destination with timing errors. That's why there are so many expensive sources like innuos. Computers are noisy sources. The innuos minimizes the timing errors by big and clean  power supplies and avoiding switches.

people need to realize electric circuits do not understand 1s and 0s. It is all volts/currents and errors are in various forms.

Consider reading a book on digital circuitry and you will quickly realize how complex this topic is and cannot justify by saying bit perfect.

More...

[Miska]

6 hours ago, Blackmorec said:

Regarding your point on sending audio via the network, how much attention have you paid to the network components because no matter how good your computer HW and OS, your network will substantially reduce the SQ if it suffers the same issues I listed ie. vibration, noise, poor quality cabling etc.

 

No it doesn't suffer those issues. Internet on larger scale doesn't suffer those issues. Vibration and noise doesn't really affect network transfer, due to differential signaling. Even less so when you use optical fibers. You can mathematically prove that the data transfer is correct.

 

Problems may arise again at the DAC end, but not as long as the data stays in digital domain. One major issue is that for example some people use shielded "audiophile" network cables and by doing so introduce noise to their systems that using standard UTP cable would avoid.

 

I do extensive measurements to check things.

[Miska]

6 hours ago, alfe said:

Why creating a third layer of error correction for rom if CD was bit perfect?

 

To check that reading was actually correct and because people tend to damage their discs to varying extent.

 

Also HDD's, SSD's and networking use error correction. Even RAM in my workstation has error correction (while more typical computers don't). And yet they are bit perfect. If you don't have proper bit perfectness, you would have lot of trouble with your pictures, word documents and especially with compressed and/or encrypted files such as ZIP or HTTPS connections on internet. Because error would result in complete garbage coming out after the error.

 

If you are worried about bit perfectness, make sure you enable MD5 checksuming in FLAC files, this way you know if there's anything wrong.

 

[monteverdi]

For years I thought that my CD transport sounded better than any other digital source (except my SDtrans 384) but after I got a Zenith II I haver not used it at all as the sound quality is significant better with rips than CDs played directly.

The only aspect I miss was the UI of the CD transport, i.e. getting up from my chair and looking in my shelf for a specific CD (of course I like a living room less cluttered with CDs). Even with Roon finding the album I want to play is like looking through lists or trying to remember the name and spelling of an artist one has not revisited for some time. Roon has sometimes some background info but every CD had liner notes.

[diecaster]

10 hours ago, ajay556 said:

Moreover, i have a computer /electrical engineering degree from u of A.  Whats your background - please don't say computeraudiohpile website 😉

 

Big whooped dee doo. Whenever I see someone tout their degree, I know they are grasping at straws.

 

Who cares what degrees I have. I remember when I worked at Apple, we would hire CS guys from Berkeley and Carnegie Mellon that were  a complete waste of office space. Degrees don't mean anything other than you could get through the process and pass. It doesn't mean you know a damn thing.

[alfe]

1 hour ago, Miska said:

 

To check that reading was actually correct and because people tend to damage their discs to varying extent.

 

Also HDD's, SSD's and networking use error correction. Even RAM in my workstation has error correction (while more typical computers don't). And yet they are bit perfect. If you don't have proper bit perfectness, you would have lot of trouble with your pictures, word documents and especially with compressed and/or encrypted files such as ZIP or HTTPS connections on internet. Because error would result in complete garbage coming out after the error.

 

If you are worried about bit perfectness, make sure you enable MD5 checksuming in FLAC files, this way you know if there's anything wrong.

 

Errors are 10 times per second if you don't use error correction.

 

[marce]

20 hours ago, ajay556 said:

There are sever

Bit perfect (which includes clock)  does not exist in real life  music - -if computer was bit perfect then innuos would not be selling 15k computer transports. There is only less bit imperfection with  better power supplies and clocks. A simple computer is completely bit imperfect.

A computer is bit perfect though otherwise it would not work. Signal integrity includes the clock, jitter, noise etc. an eye diagram is a perfect example, the whole point of them is to ensure the data received is the same as the data sent. Using USB or ethernet allows the data to be buffered and then we only have to worry about the DAC local clock, instead of reading 256 bits for every 16 bit sample in real time (allowing for Reed Solomon) from a spinning disk...

[marce]

1 hour ago, alfe said:

Errors are 10 times per second if you don't use error correction.

 

http://www.cs.toronto.edu/~bianca/papers/sigmetrics09.pdf

Google have also done a study on DDR memory errors.

[Miska]

3 hours ago, monteverdi said:

The only aspect I miss was the UI of the CD transport, i.e. getting up from my chair and looking in my shelf for a specific CD (of course I like a living room less cluttered with CDs).

 

That's how I started with HQPlayer, playing CD's through my software. So computer was the CD transport.

 

And that's still largely how HQPlayer usage flow is structured, picking an album and playing it just like you would play a CD. Myself, I don't use iPad or iPhone for remote controlling playback. When I want to change album I change it from the playback computer. If it is my office workstation / headphone system (which I use the most) I just switch to the player window and do it. If I use my loudspeaker system I walk to the computer and do it there, and get a little bit of exercise at the same time.

 

I personally find using mobile devices while listening too distracting. And on loudspeaker system either head is in wrong position when looking down at the device, or if I hold my head straight the device would need to be in front of my face where it would mess with the sound waves. So those devices are better not used while listening (with headphones this is obviously not an issue).

 

[sandyk]

3 hours ago, Miska said:

9 hours ago, alfe said:

Why creating a third layer of error correction for rom if CD was bit perfect?

 Guys

I hope that you realise that alfe is playing games with you, as he possibly knows more about the subject than the lot of you combined.

 

 Incidentally, the LG GGW H20L BR writer that he designed is still working perfectly in my PC many years later.

[Miska]

7 minutes ago, sandyk said:

I hope that you realise that alfe is playing games with you

 

From half-sentences it is hard to figure out anything...

 

9 minutes ago, sandyk said:

Incidentally, the LG GGW H20L BR writer that he designed is still working perfectly in my PC many years later.

 

I used Plextor and Toshiba CD-RW drives in the old days. And had one interesting slot-loading Pioneer DVD-ROM drive too. Now my PC's don't have drives anymore because fans pull too much dust in over years. So I'm using USB connected BD-RW drive when I need to rip CD's or test HQPlayer's CD playback. I also just realized HQPlayer Pro can be used as upsampling CD-ripper...

 

The flimsy laptop DVD-RW built into my Xeon workstation is not operational anymore, gone dead long ago.

 

[sandyk]

4 minutes ago, Miska said:

From half-sentences it is hard to figure out anything...

 

 Alfe is pretty good at that sometimes !

[semente]

3 hours ago, monteverdi said:

The only aspect I miss was the UI of the CD transport, i.e. getting up from my chair and looking in my shelf for a specific CD

 

Me too.

[Teresa]

3 hours ago, monteverdi said:

...The only aspect I miss was the UI of the CD transport, i.e. getting up from my chair and looking in my shelf for a specific CD...

 

I still do this, however I'm usually putting an SACD in my Yamaha Blu-ray / SACD universal player.

 

I actually prefer physical formats, especially the fact that I can sell or trade-in discs I don't like or no longer like. With computer music files my only choice is to delete them at a 100% loss. This is why I hope universal players continue to be available for a very long time, at least until I die.

 

My computer music files (mostly DSD and 24-bit PCM) are for music I can't get in high resolution physical formats. Also I don't play computer music files when I'm on the internet, as they tend to skip when loading a page on the internet. Right now I am playing Tango, a Telarc SACD.

 

3 hours ago, monteverdi said:

...every CD had (has) liner notes...

 

 I added (has) to the above, since new CDs and SACDs continue to be released.

 

Sometimes the music download comes with a PDF of the booklet included with the physical disc. However, too often one only gets an image of the cover with no notes whatsoever, I consider this a rip-off.

 

In addition, there is sometimes information on the back (bottom) inlay card that is not in the booklet such as the resolution of the master and other details of the recording.

[mansr]

1 hour ago, marce said:

A computer is bit perfect though otherwise it would not work. Signal integrity includes the clock, jitter, noise etc. an eye diagram is a perfect example, the whole point of them is to ensure the data received is the same as the data sent. Using USB or ethernet allows the data to be buffered and then we only have to worry about the DAC local clock, instead of reading 256 bits for every 16 bit sample in real time (allowing for Reed Solomon) from a spinning disk...

CD players also have a buffer, at minimum enough to do the CIRC decoding. Portable players buffer several seconds in order to cope with loss of tracking due to shaking. The master clock is a crystal oscillator, and the spinning of the disc is slaved to this.

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

12 minutes ago, Teresa said:

 

I still do this, however I'm usually putting an SACD in my Yamaha Blu-ray / SACD universal player.

 

I actually prefer physical formats, especially the fact that I can sell or trade-in discs I don't like or no longer like. With computer music files my only choice is to delete them at a 100% loss. This is why I hope universal players continue to be available for a very long time, at least until I die.

 

My computer music files (mostly DSD and 24-bit PCM) are for music I can't get in high resolution physical formats. Also I don't play computer music files when I'm on the internet, as they tend to skip when loading a page on the internet. Right now I am playing Tango, a Telarc SACD.

 

 

 I added (has) to the above, since new CDs and SACDs continue to be released.

 

Sometimes the music download comes with a PDF of the booklet included with the physical disc. However, too often one only gets an image of the cover with no notes whatsoever, I consider this a rip-off.

 

In addition, there is sometimes information on the back (bottom) inlay card that is not in the booklet such as the resolution of the master and other details of the recording.

 

Hi Teresa,

I remember the days when part of my audiophile hobby was the actual process of collecting vinyl and subsequently CD's. I spent a lot of time searching for 'that wonderful next disc'. I would also trade and swap CD's. It was fantastic to see the collectables like 'trophies' on the shelves and best of all, there is something very tactile and engaging about spinning a disc.

 

Digital files are far less sexy, well virtually devoid of romance really. There is however some compensation on the geekiness factor. What really blows me away tho is the cataloguing and search ability not to mention the endless playlist ability to make "mixed tapes" OR listen to whole albums or artist, genre whatever, so effortlessly.

 

I cannot bear to part with my Levinson transport/DAC from the nineties. They look like a form of retro industrial art each nearly too heavy to lift. So if CD is back I figure I'll score some points for vintage gear.

 

I hope that you get your wish, "universal players continue to be available for a very long time, at least until I die." Mostly I hope its for a very long time and with your longevity to match.

[ajay556]

3 hours ago, marce said:

A computer is bit perfect though otherwise it would not work. Signal integrity includes the clock, jitter, noise etc. an eye diagram is a perfect example, the whole point of them is to ensure the data received is the same as the data sent. Using USB or ethernet allows the data to be buffered and then we only have to worry about the DAC local clock, instead of reading 256 bits for every 16 bit sample in real time (allowing for Reed Solomon) from a spinning disk...

Yes i do understand the bit perfect concept but in music you cannot talk about bit perfect without the clock - just does not make sense. 

There are several clocks needed to play digital music. You simply cannot send the buffered data  and have DAC reclock without errors and independent of the source. There must be a clock in retrieving data and is always going to be depended on the DAC clock. Otherwise you could simply use a macbook and get the same sound quality as innuos 15k Behemoth connected to a reclocked DAC.

 

[ajay556]

quote from kalista review  -

The Kalista Dreamplay/DAC take the notion that CD is a dying medium and stomps all over it. If you listen to this player as a player then go back to the very best streaming can offer, you’ll start to wonder if we’ve taken a wrong turn in sound quality. This might be perhaps the most elaborate way of spinning a polycarbonate disc in a time of absolute convenience, and the cost might cause even the most spendthrift and well-heeled of audiophiles to think twice, but it sounds fantastic and that is ultimately all that matters.