ISO Regen performance Improvement Cheap!

[Cornan]

20 minutes ago, AnotherSpin said:

Does anybody compared Supra Cat 7 with Supra Cat 8? My tweaked connection between original cheap PSU and regen is done with Cat 7 and result is beyond any expectation. But, just because of this certain well known itch I am curious whether I should put some efffort into Cat 8? 

 

I do have both Supra Cat 7+ and Cat 8 and can actually make a comparence between the two. I suspect that the Cat 8 will concur the Cat 7+ due to the construction but it would be fun to know if it holds true IRL. I will report back as soon as I have got the time to put it together! ?

[The Computer Audiophile]

Great to see this back on topic. Thanks to the CA Community for pulling through. 

[AnotherSpin]

16 minutes ago, Cornan said:

 

I do have both Supra Cat 7+ and Cat 8 and can actually make a comparence between the two. I suspect that the Cat 8 will concur the Cat 7+ due to the construction but it would be fun to know if it holds true IRL. I will report back as soon as I have got the time to put it together! ?

 

Will wait with great interest! Thank you.

[lmitche]

OK, so after days of break-in and testing over here the Gotham Gac 4/1 Ultra pro with ends either connected directly to the LT3045 cards or terminated with Oyaide 5.5mm 2.1 DC plugs, beats any network cable (IBRA, UGREEN, or Supra CAT8 with or without a POE adapter). 

 

I have also replaced all my BJC CAT 6a with Supra Cat 8 using the Cable Matters tool less male ethernet plugs at $6 each. Thanks to whoever recommended this cable.

 

Too bad wushuliu chose not to get along.

 

Have fun,

 

Larry

[Hauser]

Not so sure about the fun part.  Just had a look at the spec: outer diameter 8.8mm covering many layers of conductive material.  Did you have any problems connecting to the Oyaide plugs?

 

Martin.

[charlesphoto]

17 minutes ago, Hauser said:

Not so sure about the fun part.  Just had a look at the spec: outer diameter 8.8mm covering many layers of conductive material.  Did you have any problems connecting to the Oyaide plugs?

 

Martin.

 

Which cable are you asking about? 

[Bricki]

3 hours ago, lmitche said:

OK, so after days of break-in and testing over here the Gotham Gac 4/1 Ultra pro with ends either connected directly to the LT3045 cards or terminated with Oyaide 5.5mm 2.1 DC plugs, beats any network cable (IBRA, UGREEN, or Supra CAT8 with or without a POE adapter). 

 

I have also replaced all my BJC CAT 6a with Supra Cat 8 using the Cable Matters tool less male ethernet plugs at $6 each. Thanks to whoever recommended this cable.

 

Too bad wushuliu chose not to get along.

 

Have fun,

 

Larry

Thanks for this comparison and the recommendation for the gotham ?. It's times like these that I curse the hirose connector on the sps-500 ?... It makes trying new dc cables very difficult. I thought I was done after getting my 4s6 "y" cable made by Ghent ?

[lmitche]

55 minutes ago, Hauser said:

Not so sure about the fun part.  Just had a look at the spec: outer diameter 8.8mm covering many layers of conductive material.  Did you have any problems connecting to the Oyaide plugs?

 

Martin.

Yes indeed, this cable is tough to work. The outer layer is thick so the sleeve can be installed below the cover. After doing this a few times, and with judicious use of shrinkwrap, it's not too tough.

 

The Supra Cat 8 is no picnic either.

[Bricki]

Just to confirm @lmitche... I assume you have already tried the canare 4s6 as a dc cable and the gotham beats it also?? Just double checking.. Sorry if you have already posted this elsewhere 

[lmitche]

10 minutes ago, Bricki said:

Just to confirm @lmitche... I assume you have already tried the canare 4s6 as a dc cable and the gotham beats it also?? Just double checking.. Sorry if you have already posted this elsewhere 

Yes, many of my DC cables were Canare star quad from Ghentaudio with JSSG treatment. They are all Gotham Audio star quad cables now.

[rb2013]

4 hours ago, lmitche said:

OK, so after days of break-in and testing over here the Gotham Gac 4/1 Ultra pro with ends either connected directly to the LT3045 cards or terminated with Oyaide 5.5mm 2.1 DC plugs, beats any network cable (IBRA, UGREEN, or Supra CAT8 with or without a POE adapter). 

 

I have also replaced all my BJC CAT 6a with Supra Cat 8 using the Cable Matters tool less male ethernet plugs at $6 each. Thanks to whoever recommended this cable.

 

Too bad wushuliu chose not to get along.

 

Have fun,

 

Larry

Hi folks RB2013 or otherwise known Tubelover2 here...you know the fellow who discovered this PoE DC miracle.

 

Anyway since I shut down my USAM thread (it was just to long) - I have been following this one.  And I have to say, while a fairly unfocused start - you are all making great progress in further explorations of this one in million audio find.  So kudos to you all.

 

So let's let bygones be bygones - we are all pursuing the excitement and joy of truly remarkable audio.

 

But after the last few days I have to scold my friend Larry for his treatment of a truly great friend to us all - Wushuliu

 

Larry this great fellow has been with us from HF days...he's not some random drop in troll.  You really treated him unfairly and in a rather bullying fashion.  Who are you to dictate he 'get along' that is kowtow to you?  Are you the thread boss?  This is not like you as you have been a gracious poster on my USAM ... kindly thanking me for turning you on to the LT3045's and ZeroZone Amb Sigma 11 LPS's.  What's up dude?

 

Anyway - Wushuliu was just trying to get some semblance of focus here.  He wasn't tolling the thread.  Please don't be like this - it's not in the interest of having 'fun' as you frequently say.  Mend fences, apologize and invite him back.  He has much to add here.

 

I'm eternally grateful to him to leading me to the other amazing audio SQ breakthrough using a LT3045 powered USB 3.0 hub with SLC mSD for music file playback - a truly fundamental audio leap.

 

As for my own continuing PoE DC explorations - you guys have seen NOTHING yet!  Oh man - the new topology is another even bigger breakthrough then my first PoE discovery.   Details to be announced in a new USAM thread once I have all the variations optimized.

 

And if it's ok with the thread starter sligolad I'd like to pop in from time to time to comment...if not then just carry on.

 

Cheers!

Rob

[Bricki]

45 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Yes, many of my DC cables were Canare star quad from Ghentaudio with JSSG treatment. They are all Gotham Audio star quad cables now.

OK thanks for that...I wonder if I can find a local stockist in Australia ?... Probably not

[Hauser]

Gotham's website shows they sell direct by the metre but haven't enquired about freight component.  The cable's diameter is worrying me; Supra Cat8 diameter at least is more compatible with Oyaide connectors.

 

Martin.

[Hauser]

Been wondering when Alex might start considering this thread is going too far OT.  Maybe a shift to 'A novel...' or 'The true...' threads would be more appropriate.

 

Martin.

 

 

[charlesphoto]

Well, it should probably be incorporated into the DIY DC cable thread. 

[sligolad]

4 hours ago, rb2013 said:

Hi folks RB2013 or otherwise known Tubelover2 here...you know the fellow who discovered this PoE DC miracle.

 

As for my own continuing PoE DC explorations - you guys have seen NOTHING yet!  Oh man - the new topology is another even bigger breakthrough then my first PoE discovery.   Details to be announced in a new USAM thread once I have all the variations optimized.

 

And if it's ok with the thread starter sligolad I'd like to pop in from time to time to comment...if not then just carry on.

 

Cheers!

Rob

Great to see your input here Rob and all this thread was meant to do was spread the good news of your discovery and offer up a very simple and cheap install for ISO Regen owners to allow them to get a real big boost at very little outlay.

 

It is turning into a DC cable thread but at least it seems on balance the majority of feedback has so far been very appreciative of the simple CAT cable and POE connector benefits which for me have been astounding so far.

 

Always appreciate your feedback as I trust your golden ears based on all the work you have done over recent years so feel free to chime in at any time.

 

As for this thread I can see the writing on the wall based on posts over recent days so it will be more likely i will be following your new thread more than you popping in here.

 

Looking forward to seeing what new discoveries you have found and please post a link when you get up and running as at the end of the day its all about the music and hopefully we can all bite our lips when the partisan minority appear.

 

I had a suspicion that further improvements could be made going the CAT cable route given all the possible variations on offer with shielded pairs ?

[jamesg11]

8 hours ago, lmitche said:

Yes, many of my DC cables were Canare star quad from Ghentaudio with JSSG treatment. They are all Gotham Audio star quad cables now.

Pics, please, of the finished product(s)!

[rb2013]

6 hours ago, sligolad said:

Great to see your input here Rob and all this thread was meant to do was spread the good news of your discovery and offer up a very simple and cheap install for ISO Regen owners to allow them to get a real big boost at very little outlay.

 

It is turning into a DC cable thread but at least it seems on balance the majority of feedback has so far been very appreciative of the simple CAT cable and POE connector benefits which for me have been astounding so far.

 

Always appreciate your feedback as I trust your golden ears based on all the work you have done over recent years so feel free to chime in at any time.

 

As for this thread I can see the writing on the wall based on posts over recent days so it will be more likely i will be following your new thread more than you popping in here.

 

Looking forward to seeing what new discoveries you have found and please post a link when you get up and running as at the end of the day its all about the music and hopefully we can all bite our lips when the partisan minority appear.

 

I had a suspicion that further improvements could be made going the CAT cable route given all the possible variations on offer with shielded pairs ?

Hi,

Thanks for the reply.  The changes brought about by this simple change to just the DC cabling continues to astound and perplex me.  How can the insertion of a such a small gauge wire into an already existing DC cable make such an improvement?

 

The reports from those with LPS-1/1.2 adding the PoE DC - which is a mixed bag - vs LPS's (even great ones like your PH) may hold a clue.  My theory is that the higher impedance from the small gauge wires used in CAT7/8 cables may be blocking low impedance leakages.  It'll be interesting to  see what JS's tests show.

 

I'm curious as to your mod on the PoE injector - do you have photo of what you did to double (from two twisted pairs to four for each lead) the pairs?  I think from reading your post - this improved the SQ.

 

So far my experiments with the Supra CAT8 vs the UGREEN and IBRA where incremental improvements.  I still feel when used on the IR which is fed by a dual series LT3045 box (7VDC>5VDC) the UGREEN still produces the best sound stage holography and imaging.  On the USB 3.0 hub/SLC mSD the Supra is better.

 

And yes this a ton of fun for so little money!?  Like the LDover LT3045's?

 

BTW anyone looking for plug and play LT3045 boxes check my listings on USAM.  I put up some spare ones.

 

Cheers!

 

[rb2013]

In regards to the Gotham Gac 4/1 Ultra pro microphone star quad cable.  I believe Alex at Uptone offers a similar DC cable with the JS-2.

From their website:

Quote

1 custom 5-foot DC cable. This special cable is a shielded, star-quad with 4 conductors of tinned, stranded 18AWG; paired at the connector that makes it about a heavy 15AWG.  Gold/copper/brass Oyaide (5.5mm x 2.5mm) DC barrel plugs from Japan at both ends. Upon request we can terminate one end with a 2.1mm version of the Oyaide connector in case you need that size at the device end.

[A second one of these in-demand custom cables can be ordered by JS-2 purchasers for $75; Specify length and device-end termination.]

This came up in our discussions on my USAM thread regarding a DIY project to make a short star quad cable to connect my LT3045 boxes to the IR and other devices.  If I remember correctly he mentioned using Canare microphone cable.  This is different then the Canare 4s6 speaker cable Ghent uses - which is 4X 20awg.  I remember Alex mentioning a special order Oyaide plug as well and very special care in the plug attachment (tricky with four 18awg wires).  I believe he mentioned he was thinking of offering these cables for sale separately - but never saw them listed.

 

I am curious if anyone who has a JS-2 has tried the PoE DC in series or in replacement of this beautiful Uptone star quad microphone cable?

 

For my purposes, I built a few of these short (6 inches to min RFI/EMI) star quad using (MIL-SPEC) Aerospace grade silver plated copper 20awg PTFE.  I added an additional layer of copper braided passive shielding, shrink wrap over that.  Switchcraft 2.1mm plugs from Mouser.

 

These I still use to connect the LT3045 to the IR.  But even the initial PoE DC experiment with just a UTP BJC CAT6a (unshielded) was a major SQ jump - but only when used BEFORE the LT3045's - no SQ change after!  And I have had the same experience with the CAT7 and CAT8's - no change when replacing the short star quad silver/teflon cable after the LT3045's  - huge SQ when used before the LT3045's vs the same short star quad cable.  That, for me, just adds to the mystery. of what is really happening here.

 

Cheers!

[sligolad]

The configuration i am currently using in the POE connectors can be seen in the pictures below.

The first picture is the standard passive setup where the POE connectors are wired, these are visible when you cut away the outer casing.

 

Its got the Red positive bridging across the pins from 4 & 5 which i think takes one of the wires from 2 separate pairs.

The Black negative is bridging pins 7 & 8 which is using both wires in a pair.

 

 

I basically desoldered these and pooled solder on pairs 1 & 2 and 3 & 4 for Red Positive and the pooled solder on pairs 5 & 6 and 7 & 8 for Black negative.

 

 

I thought about staggering the pairs but went with the above and very pleased so far.

[rb2013]

59 minutes ago, sligolad said:

The configuration i am currently using in the POE connectors can be seen in the pictures below.

The first picture is the standard passive setup where the POE connectors are wired, these are visible when you cut away the outer casing.

 

Its got the Red positive bridging across the pins from 4 & 5 which i think takes one of the wires from 2 separate pairs.

The Black negative is bridging pins 7 & 8 which is using both wires in a pair.

 

 

I basically desoldered these and pooled solder on pairs 1 & 2 and 3 & 4 for Red Positive and the pooled solder on pairs 5 & 6 and 7 & 8 for Black negative.

 

 

I thought about staggering the pairs but went with the above and very pleased so far.

Very cool - thanks for the photo. I will try that as well.  

I just ordered one of these PoE injectors - interesting design

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Power-Over-Ethernet-Passive-POE-Injector-Splitter-Adapter-Cable/332472331383?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

Description:

- Fully support IEEE.802.af and IEEE.802.3at
- Powerful Type 2 PSE line detection digital noise filter, Maximize the elimination of malfunction; Power conversion efficiency up to 92%
- EMC meet IEC 61000-4-2/3/4/5/6 standards; Complete 18kVsurge protection system
- Wide input supply voltage design, support 25V DC to 60V DC
- Built-in thermal protection, short circuit protection; Built-in dual channel bridge rectifiers, direct Support Endpoint
- support five current limiting mode, two supply modes1/2/3/6 and 4/5/7/8

Specification:

- POE input indicator
- PD output indicator
- Product Size: 20.8 x 2.3 x 2.3cm

 

But this not the new magic sauce!  It'll be awhile before I start the new PoE DC thread.  I see 'M' started a continuation thread on USAM  - and more positive reports are coming in on this PoE DC discovery.

Cheers!

[charlesphoto]

I’m still of the opinion these poE adapters are a solution looking for a problem compared to a direct connection of the ethernet cable with dc plugs, but they do make for sampling different cables a piece of cake. I could be wrong of course....

[rb2013]

45 minutes ago, charlesphoto said:

I’m still of the opinion these poE adapters are a solution looking for a problem compared to a direct connection of the ethernet cable with dc plugs, but they do make for sampling different cables a piece of cake. I could be wrong of course....

I agree - the passive type of PoE injector is not the magic - but does allow for quick cable changes.  I've also had success in my office system using this Ethernet block connector and combining different cables.  Didn't have as much success in the main system.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rj45-adapter-ethernet-extension-lan-cable-cat7-6-5e-socket-female-8p8c-connector/282900310703?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&var=582516111260&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

 

I think wushuliu was on to something with his post here on the differing gauges and twist tightness.  Smaller the gauge the tighter the twist possible.  The UGREEN uses only 26awg OFC and it's one of my favorite cables.

 

But what originally lead me to even try this - came from a post on Amir's ASR review of the LPS-1 and Alex's reply quoting JS regarding low impedance leakage blocking.  That Ethernet had this implicit in it's design.  The use of passive PoE injectors was just a design test to see if the CAT cable would even work.  And BOY did they ever!  But without the PoE Active low impedance leakage blocking!  

Alex's post (#112) on Amir's ASR review of the LPS-1 thread quoting John Swenson on Ethernet suppression of low impedance leakage - what the LPS-1/1.2 do.

Here's the link and quote:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/uptone-lps-1-linear-power-supply-review-and-measurements.1849/

Quote

For high frequency signals such as Ethernet the existing transformers are sufficient to block the low impedance components of leakage. Leakage even from SMPS is still significantly lower in frequency than Ethernet signaling so a properly designed transformer will have a high enough impedance at the lower frequencies to block the low impedance components, but NOT the high impedance components. SO you still need to shunt the high impedance components and the transformer will take care of the low.

 

So going back to this original idea of getting a LPS-1/1.2 type of low impedance leakage blocking  - in a active or semi-active PoE DC chain - would that provide even greater SQ benefits?  Surplant the purpose of the LPS1/1.2?  Use just an el-cheapo R-core LPS, a few LT3045s' with this now active PoE DC in between.

 

There are issues of DC to DC converter noise - the transformers on Ethernet's data lines do not work for PoE.  But that noise would be dealt with by a couple of in series LT3045's with their massive wide, high and ultra high freq PSRR.

 

This has not been explored yet here - but I have been running all kinds of experiments with fantastic promise!

[charlesphoto]

I did get an uptick in performance with the LPS-1 with the addition of the newer grounded Uptone SMPS vs the HDPLEX I was charging with before (with a ground shunt). I think you’re right about impedance of the cable gauge - perhaps the Canare Starquad is just too thick of gauge, or the twist isn’’t right, or not enough shielding. The shielding on the Supra is much better than either of the inexpensive CAT7’s I opened up. 

 

I’d be wary of talk of supplanting the excellent LPS-1 or 1.2. Keep in mind we are in the Uptone sponsored forum, and should be very thankful for all they’ve done. Might be best to start a new thread on another sub-forum for talk of other power supply comparisons. 

 

Now to order a short length of Gotham and give that a try.... added some Herbie’s dbNeutralizer pads under my speaker spike cones this morning and another small jump in sq with tighter bass esp  and less room, gear cabinet vibrations all around (discs were originally $12 for 8 off ebay, and dB pads $27 with sticky side, so another inexpensive tweak). OT I know, but goes to show every bit helps, and one doesn’t have to break the bank with super expensive cabling or things like Stillpoints. 

[rb2013]

2 hours ago, charlesphoto said:

I did get an uptick in performance with the LPS-1 with the addition of the newer grounded Uptone SMPS vs the HDPLEX I was charging with before (with a ground shunt). I think you’re right about impedance of the cable gauge - perhaps the Canare Starquad is just too thick of gauge, or the twist isn’’t right, or not enough shielding. The shielding on the Supra is much better than either of the inexpensive CAT7’s I opened up. 

 

I’d be wary of talk of supplanting the excellent LPS-1 or 1.2. Keep in mind we are in the Uptone sponsored forum, and should be very thankful for all they’ve done. Might be best to start a new thread on another sub-forum for talk of other power supply comparisons. 

 

Now to order a short length of Gotham and give that a try.... added some Herbie’s dbNeutralizer pads under my speaker spike cones this morning and another small jump in sq with tighter bass esp  and less room, gear cabinet vibrations all around (discs were originally $12 for 8 off ebay, and dB pads $27 with sticky side, so another inexpensive tweak). OT I know, but goes to show every bit helps, and one doesn’t have to break the bank with super expensive cabling or things like Stillpoints. 

Well I was just giving my reasoning as to what led to this discovery.  I had a LPS-1 and it was good but not great - those TI TPS LDO's where holding it back - now the 1.2 with LT3045's is I'm sure better.

 

Whether the passive or active PoE DC actually do block low impedance leakage (and if using a LPS or shunted SMPS - high impedance leakage is not an issue) - remains to be seen.  It was just my reasoning that brought me to this discovery.  Apologies to Alex and John.  They know I'm a huge Iso Regen fan!

 

It is interesting that you would hear any difference in energizing power supplies for the LPS-1  - esp on the LPS-1 (which has a lower current draw the 1.2).  The HDplex should have been supplying ample current.

 

I think we should ask (maybe beg) Alex to offer his excellent star quad DC cable as a separate item for purchase.  Would love to try one!

 

As for the better shielding on the Supra vs the IBRA and UGREEN.  This has been commented on before - in fact wushuliu was the first to buy these CAT 7 cables and open them up - to find that the shielding was nothing to write home about - especially in comparison to the Amazon CAT 7 we also bought, and had far better shielding - kind of inline with the Supra CAT8.  And yet the SQ was vastly inferior to the lessor shielded and smaller gauge UGREEN and IBRA.  

 

But this is interesting - I had started with a UTP BJC CAT6a, then tried a STP CAT6 - it was marginally better.  Then the UGREEN, TERA GRAND, VANDESAIL, and the IBRA CAT 7's.  Finally the Supra CAT8.  The SQ lift that shocked me originally - was with the completely unshielded BJC CAT6a!  So shielding is only part of the equation - maybe a small part.  It may well be the higher bandwidth of CAT 7 And CAT 8 vs CAT6a that caused the SQ improvement.  But DC is 0Hz - so what is being transmitted?  Or blocked?  By the greater impedance of the PoE DC CAT cabling - due to the smaller gauge wire?  For a 1M CAT 8 cable the impedance causes a voltage drop of approx .3VDC for 500mA@9VDC.  The Supra CAT 8 has by far the greatest bandwidth - out to 2,000 Mhz!

 

Here is the bandwidth of the cable Ghent Audio uses for their DC cables - note the drop off right after 200Khz.

 

 

I'm also a big fan of vibration isolation...love my SR MIGs!