Barriers to Hi-Fi

[Norton]

1 hour ago, Shadders said:

 

 

Likewise, it is intelligence that allows you to realise that cheap equipment...sounds just as good as high end. All high end is, is the cheaper equipment electronics in a fancy case, which is then sold, very over priced.

 

I'd say that was optimism rather than intelligence.

[Shadders]

4 minutes ago, Norton said:

 

I'd say that was optimism rather than intelligence.

Hi,

Have a look at Hifi News - they have photographs of high end equipment - no difference to standard hifi.

 

There is no magic in circuit design. No special club of high end designers - where their topology or theory belongs to the magic circle only.

 

High end is just over priced bog standard circuits - in a very nice case, a smattering of keywords/phrases such as :

 

highly optimised linear circuit, precision resistors, matched transistors, wideband gain, peak current capability, local feedback, large damping factor, high slew rate, high input conductance, balanced topology, or a.n. other special sounding phrase.

 

All these types of phrases (and so many more) are used to lead one to believe that the price tag is warranted, that you will hear something special.

 

Why not get a book from the library and see how amplifiers are designed, or purchase an electronics magazine. Many projects on amplifiers throughout the decades. I am not saying it is easy, but there is no magic as the high end manufacturers will have you believe.

 

But then, this hobby has many people believe that cables have a characteristic sound, or cable lifters will make a difference, or leaving the amplifier on all the time will make it sound better, or a green felt tip pen on the edge of the CD will make a difference, or an optical cable will make a difference, or special fuses will sound better than other fuses, or special supports (bean bags with sand in them) will make your equipment sound better.

 

The list is endless. So is the gullibility of many people.

 

Regards,

Shadders.

Regards,

Shadders.

[tmtomh]

14 hours ago, GUTB said:

I’ve noticed a few trends with online discussions in regards to hi-fi:

 

1. The large majority of commentators don’t seem to care about better sound. The prevailing belief is that they’ve "arrived" because they have a set of Audioengines, JBLs, Rokits, etc, sitting on thier desk.

 

2. New people asking questions have already decided what thier budgets are (usually less than $500).

 

3. A complete lack of interest in the high-end.

 

The key factor seems to be that this is a male lifestyle. As men we tend to tie up our egos with purchasing decisions. As the great majority of online commentary is from men defending thier low-quality purchasing decisions there is no pressure to move newbies into a better starting point. The odd time good advice is given, it’s easy to dismiss it and defend egos. Call it willful ignorance. A dangerous, toxic subset of the ego-driven lo-fi commentator are the militant objectivist cult members; I don’t mean the average objectivist who doesn’t believe in cables or expensive amps, I’m talking about people who think high resolution audio is pure snakeoil. People who say that you can EQ a HD6XX into a Utopia. 

 

I have two thoughts in response to your post:

1. If you're right about the male-ego aspect, then any rational and good-faith appraisal needs to admit that the same male egos are tied up in the converse too: men defending the value proposition of their very high-dollar purchasing decisions. And you've got to include yourself in the latter camp there, since you're one of the most prominent voices here on behalf of that phenomenon - in fact, witness this thread itself, which you've started in order to beat the same drum that many of your other threads are beating.
2. That said, I do agree that there is unhelpful absolutism on both sides. For example, the notion that high-end audio is just the same basic components inside more expensive boxes is IMHO silly. And yet I do think it's true that a good deal of high-end audio is as expensive as it is for economic/scale reasons, not just quality of design or quality of components reasons. And certain very high-dollar products (like super high-end digital cables) almost certainly have far higher profit margins than commodity cables, meaning that even if the components are higher quality and/or the final produce is more rigorously QA tested, there's still extra profit built in via the high price.

 

P.S. I would be happy to include myself in point #1 too, except that I actually don't feel a need to defend my purchasing decisions. I know my setup could sound better if replaced some or all components with much more expensive stuff, and I have no problem admitting that. ButI also know that my system has reached a quality level where it consistently allows me to enjoy music and does not make me feel fatigued, frustrated, or like I'm missing out. So if my disposable income increases I will certainly be open to upgrading. In this respect I agree with @PeterSt that you only really look where your budget allows you to.

[Shadders]

18 minutes ago, tmtomh said:

That said, I do agree that there is unhelpful absolutism on both sides. For example, the notion that high-end audio is just the same basic components inside more expensive boxes is IMHO silly. And yet I do think it's true that a good deal of high-end audio is as expensive as it is for economic/scale reasons, not just quality of design or quality of components reasons. And certain very high-dollar products (like super high-end digital cables) almost certainly have far higher profit margins than commodity cables, meaning that even if the components are higher quality and/or the final produce is more rigorously QA tested, there's still extra profit built in via the high price.

 

Hi,

Think this through. A cheaper amplifier will sell much more units than a high end unit. So, the design has to be more rigorously tested etc., else the scale of returns due to issues will be much higher and will cost more.

 

High end uses same components as the lower costing equipment.

 

Also, can you tell me what special resistors are ?. Why they cost more and what their special properties are ? Here is a secret - there are no special resistors. Same for transistors - no special doping of transistors for high end amplifiers.

 

Check out Farnell, Digikey, Mouser - and then examine component costs for small numbers, and how many are actually used in an amplifier.

 

Check the internet - there are circuit diagrams of 20 to 30 year old Krells - they have the same basic circuit topology as cheaper units. Nothing special.

 

You are charged a higher price, nice fancy case - you think you are getting something special.

 

Regards,

Shadders.

[PeterSt]

2 minutes ago, Shadders said:

Also, can you tell me what special resistors are ?. Why they cost more and what their special properties are ? Here is a secret - there are no special resistors

 

No Sir. Investigate their properties. Start with the obvious accuracy and next learn about more. Capacitors no difference but more obvious.

Farnell, Digikey, Mouser ? ... if that is where you looking I understand where you come from.

 

PS: I purchase 95% from there. But that is not the specialty stuff. You buy that directly from the manufacturer. And 5% is crucial. And FYI that manufacturer can even be Crystek (well known to said resellers but not for niche products). Pardon me saying it, but you could be "rusted" in old school stuff. Audio is being ahead of things. And no way this is about Digikey  etc. It is cheaper alright for logical reasons, but that is en entirely different matter.

[Shadders]

23 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

 

No Sir. Investigate their properties. Start with the obvious accuracy and next learn about more. Capacitors no difference but more obvious.

Farnell, Digikey, Mouser ? ... if that is where you looking I understand where you come from.

 

PS: I purchase 95% from there. But that is not the specialty stuff. You buy that directly from the manufacturer. And 5% is crucial. And FYI that manufacturer can even be Crystek (well known to said resellers but not for niche products). Pardon me saying it, but you could be "rusted" in old school stuff. Audio is being ahead of things. And no way this is about Digikey  etc. It is cheaper alright for logical reasons, but that is en entirely different matter.

Hi,

I am not saying that there are no differences between resistor types such as thin film, or thick film.

 

If you believe you can hear differences between components, then good for you.

 

Regards,

Shadders.

[esldude]

4 hours ago, GUTB said:

 

$300 active monitors sitting on your computer desk will not result in a high quality stereo sound experience. Your valuations in sound quality are extremely suspect, BUT in order to remove my ego from the equation I decided to try out these well-regarded-and-cheap components (Crown amp is coming in from Amazon today). My biases and expectations may be wrong. But I understand that as a man it’s hard to get around one’s ego — maybe my experiment will help other men get around their own and move in the direction of better sound.

You haven't heard them have you?  And I didn't say they were sitting on a computer desk.  They work well in a smaller room.  With a sub into a moderate sized room.  My regular speakers are in the $10k range so I am not trying to protect my ego on this matter.  

 

With your oft stated bias I find it highly highly unlikely you'll be able to hear cleanly whatever results you get with the Crown amp.  Certainly do at least carefully match levels using a meter.  At the most basic send a 1khz tone and measure at the speaker leads.  

[The Computer Audiophile]

5 hours ago, GUTB said:

 

Just go to /r/audiophile on Reddit. Also Vinyl Engine, Steve Hoffman. CA is on the higher end of the audio spectrum being mostly older men. Head-Fi is a mix of serious audiophiles and hardcore objectivist have-nothings.

CA is on the younger end if you look at the analytics. Every time I send demographic info to people they say CA is much younger than the other audio mags, outside of the headphone community. 

 

With respect to price, I’d say CA is all over the board. It’s pretty cool that way. From Schiit and iFi to Constellation and TAD and everything else. 

[fas42]

2 hours ago, PeterSt said:

Today I'd have infinite money to get myself that ultimate system. But I trust nothing. Still the good old audiophile. My system still is the best although I think it can be improved upon. With money ?  no. Not for me. Shows only tell me shyt. I have to do it myself.

 

On the latter : OK, I really do that. But I still think that the real audiophile inherently is like that. The real audiophile is DIY. He does not buy amps - he makes them. Or tweaks.

 

(side note : 25 years ago my system comprised of ~100K - today it is about half of that and infinitely better; it is not about money at all but about the investment in time to sort out things)

 

Yes, today most people can't reach a higher standard, easily, because the items one buys as finished components still aren't good enough, and the process of assembling them into a competent system is poorly understood - luck plays an enormous role, which is pretty appalling, really ...

 

DIY is tremendous value for money, if one knows how to go about things - and is willing to use plenty of that time factor for experimenting.

 

Will this situation get better, eventually? I certainly hope so, it's immensely irritating that one can't just go out and buy something that does the job, and that money makes almost no difference to the chances of getting the desired results.

[fas42]

1 hour ago, Shadders said:

Check the internet - there are circuit diagrams of 20 to 30 year old Krells - they have the same basic circuit topology as cheaper units. Nothing special.

 

You are charged a higher price, nice fancy case - you think you are getting something special.

 

Regards,

Shadders.

 

What made the Krells "special" were the mammoth power supplies - and this costs money, big money; the case has to be solid enough to contain all this.

 

Yes, circuit topology is almost nothing ... and implementation is almost everything. Getting the latter right may not interest the "big companies" - and will likely mean the finished unit will cost significantly more to make - so, the chances of it happening are ... ummm ...

[Shadders]

12 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

What made the Krells "special" were the mammoth power supplies - and this costs money, big money; the case has to be solid enough to contain all this.

 

Yes, circuit topology is almost nothing ... and implementation is almost everything. Getting the latter right may not interest the "big companies" - and will likely mean the finished unit will cost significantly more to make - so, the chances of it happening are ... ummm ...

Hi,

I have had a bespoke 1kVA transformer made, for a run of 6, each costing less than £75. The higher cost are for the reservoir capacitors, and in general, will be less than £200 per mono amplifier.

 

When you see some amplifiers costing £15k upwards, then i realise that you are not really paying for the components or special design.

 

Regards,

Shadders.

[davide256]

3 hours ago, PeterSt said:

...

 

(side note : 25 years ago my system comprised of ~100K - today it is about half of that and infinitely better; it is not about money at all but about the investment in time to sort out things)

Kind of like taking that marble block and pulling the "David" out of it that you know is inside. You break a few "blocks" getting there but you learn from each mistake. :,<)

 

The problem though is that most don't have the time or the dedication to initially travel this path. When you want a young adult to develop a passion for something, you need to "softball" them a few early successes, positive reinforcement.  That's why "bang for the buck" beginner systems matter to grow the number of hobbyists.

[semente]

4 hours ago, KingRex said:

I believe the expansion of high quality audio suffers 2 obstacle. Of course money is an issue.  That's the 1st issue.  Let me tie that into the second issue, space.  I live in Seattle.  A city with little discretionary money and even less SPACE.   I have bid electrical for hundreds of project ranging from small 5 over 2 structures to tall towers.  600 feet is a nice sized condo/apt.  San Francisco and NY are no better.  They cost around $2400 to $3200 a month the to rent.  Take your 100k job, pull out the 33% tax, grocery, cable, phone, entertainment, insurance etc and you have no money while living in a Hamster cage.   The spaces are designed for nothing more than a flatscreen.

 

Get married, move to the suburbs and a house will set you back $700k.  That's a scramble bid for a 1200sqft piece of land with a structure you can live in.   If I could get that house for $550 I would tear it down, build new and sell fort 1.4M or better.    Or you loose .75 to 1.25 hours per trip of driving to and from work.  At that commute your still out $500k.  Kids?  That's a third issue.  Little hands, thrown toys.  When their older abuse during use, especially if a party is thrown.  

 

Society is build around staring at screens.  I guess this is a 4th issue. I grew up with Martha Quinn on MTV.  Music was partly important because we watched TV with it. 

 

I heard a clients high school kids cranking Bruno Mars with friends over.  They were enjoying music.  The father is into audio.  He is excited about his Pioneer multi channel amp that is old, and a cheep techniques TT.  To him, he has high audio.  Could he purchase better.  Lets see, $600k remodel on top of $500k house, divorced, 2 kids, Med ins. etc.  You tell me where his priorities are.  

 

Space and Money.  The middle class has huge bils.  Maybe a nice paycheck but big bills.  Housing is build dangerously close to inhumane space constrained cells.  We are full of apts with a shared kitchen /bath and a 125 foot bed space.  

Those who make it big.  They are few, hence a shift to $500k systems that marginally meet audiophile standards.

 

That's why I think high end audio has barrier to hifi.  

 

Makes wonder why people live in the US. Is this just in Seattle or all over the Federation?

[fas42]

14 minutes ago, Shadders said:

Hi,

I have had a bespoke 1kVA transformer made, for a run of 6, each costing less than £75. The higher cost are for the reservoir capacitors, and in general, will be less than £200 per mono amplifier.

 

When you see some amplifiers costing £15k upwards, then i realise that you are not really paying for the components or special design.

 

Regards,

Shadders.

 

One has to take into account the manufacturing cost to retail price ratio, which for small scale operations, no economies of scale whatsoever, can be 1:15 - one figure I came across. It doesn't take long for this factor to push the number the consumer pays way, way up there ...

[semente]

3 hours ago, PeterSt said:

Derived from ~50 years of experience (the majority not fed by Internet ideas - just saying), I think this is practice :

 

You live your audiophile life by your budget. Have a 500 only ? then logically you won't be looking into - or auditioning 500K speakers. You also won't even appreciate them (at shows) because you wouldn't know what to listen for. You may not even go to shows because you'll meet gray 50-'ers and don't associate with them or that. At least I don't recall any of it. In my past I  read audio magazines and read about the ultimate low bass of Peter Gabriel together with Kate Bush and tried it. I was sure I could do the same. My system was thus perfect.

 

My system has always been perfect and outbettered everybody else's, although I did not know them. I was sure.

I still am.

But things changed.

 

Today I'd have infinite money to get myself that ultimate system. But I trust nothing. Still the good old audiophile. My system still is the best although I think it can be improved upon. With money ?  no. Not for me. Shows only tell me shyt. I have to do it myself.

 

On the latter : OK, I really do that. But I still think that the real audiophile inherently is like that. The real audiophile is DIY. He does not buy amps - he makes them. Or tweaks.

 

(side note : 25 years ago my system comprised of ~100K - today it is about half of that and infinitely better; it is not about money at all but about the investment in time to sort out things)

 

Ha, but you know how to listen, what to listen for and how to deal with it.

[fas42]

10 minutes ago, semente said:

 

Ha, but you know how to listen, what to listen for and how to deal with it.

 

There are different paths that can be taken - most follow a steady, upward improving over the years - no dramatic breakthroughs ...

 

It was radically transformational for me - one day, the system delivered the whole shebang: huge sound, 3D, holographic, immersive, rig completely invisible. The difference when it slipped from these heights was like getting out of the Ferrari, and taking the Kia hatch to get a bottle of milk from the corner store ... so, one then knows, forever more, "what to listen for".

 

How to deal with it is the hard bit - one learns that being very precise about everything that matters is essential, which then can take many years, to get proper answers on how to "control everything".

[new_media]

1 hour ago, semente said:

 

Makes wonder why people live in the US. Is this just in Seattle or all over the Federation?

You can live much more affordably in many places in the US, but the employment and lifestyle choices may be vastly different.

[GUTB]

3 hours ago, esldude said:

You haven't heard them have you?  And I didn't say they were sitting on a computer desk.  They work well in a smaller room.  With a sub into a moderate sized room.  My regular speakers are in the $10k range so I am not trying to protect my ego on this matter.  

 

With your oft stated bias I find it highly highly unlikely you'll be able to hear cleanly whatever results you get with the Crown amp.  Certainly do at least carefully match levels using a meter.  At the most basic send a 1khz tone and measure at the speaker leads.  

 

I was referring to commentators in general, not you personally. CA posters are generally more experienced in real hi-fi and know basics like speaker placement. 

[Benji]

The biggest barrier to being an audiophile is home ownership.  My father was living in his own home at age 24 married, and had a college degree that he paid for by waiting tables part time.  Over 50% of millenials still live with their parents, the ones that don't are in overpriced apartments.  The younger generation does not have the disposable income that the baby boomers did. 

[beerandmusic]

3 hours ago, semente said:

 

Makes wonder why people live in the US. Is this just in Seattle or all over the Federation?

 

property values in USA probably follow similarly anywhere in world...

jobs

climate

education

crime

community

taxes

 

Seattle probably is favored in all but climate, but most notably high paid jobs and education.  I would tend to believe sydney would be similar in comparison to property values elsewhere in australia?

[Ralf11]

Seattle was great until about 1980 or so...

[wgscott]

42 minutes ago, Benji said:

The biggest barrier to being an audiophile is home ownership.  My father was living in his own home at age 24 married, and had a college degree that he paid for by waiting tables part time.  Over 50% of millenials still live with their parents, the ones that don't are in overpriced apartments.  The younger generation does not have the disposable income that the baby boomers did. 

 

This hits the nail on the head.

[zackthedog]

4 hours ago, semente said:

 

Makes wonder why people live in the US. Is this just in Seattle or all over the Federation?

 

Those of us who were born here don't have much of a choice. :-)  The "desirable" cities are indeed expensive, the rest of the country, not so much.  But hey, we visited a tiny village in France this year and loved it, actually thought about moving there.  But an "American" sized house for all our kit would not be cheap, even there.

[plissken]

9 hours ago, beerandmusic said:

I don't understand the question.

 

People will always spend whatever they care to spend, depending on their pocket book size and their interest in the topic.

 

I would never spend more than $100 on a bicycle because I am not interested in that sport. 

Some people that are interested in that sport may spend $300 on a bicycle because they are interested but that is all they can afford.

Some people may spend $500 on a bicycle even though they can only afford $300 but they are willing to go into debt because bicycling is the only thing they are interested in, and if not for bicycling they would have "no life".

Some people may spend $800 on a bicycle even though they can afford more, but they feel that is the best bang for the buck, and they don't want to pay for a name.

Some people may make their own custom bicycle costing over $1000 because it fit's their needs and desires best.

Some people may spend $1000 on a bicycle even though they only ride it around the block and because they can afford it.

Some people may spend $3000 on a bicycle because they can afford it and they will use it.

Some people may spend $10000 on a bicycle because they collect bicycles.

 

And some people, because they know how to really ride a bike, will, using a $100 bike, out ride someone else using a $1000 bike.

[PeterSt]

1 hour ago, Benji said:

The biggest barrier to being an audiophile is home ownership.

 

I did not think of this, but for me this is / has been so much true;

When I was a kid, living with my parents, we lived in an apartment on the 4th story. My own made/assembled (including turntable) stereo played the same all over (my first bought album was Black Sabbath's first) ... with the window open. I played it as loud as I'd think the flat opposite to ours (a 300ft away) could all hear my music. I always had this audience at my proposal of 200 or so other apartments maybe even a 1000 people in them. I played all the hardrock coming about and never thought that neighbors possibly did not like my music. Smoke on the Water had to be great because it sounded great to me. So here already, "my system is the best" surfaced.

 

I recall vaguely that at 21, my first own (row)house's doorbel rang regularly with complaining neighbors at the doorstep.

At 25 I had my own built free standing house and the doors which opened to the terrace only faced a highway 1000ft away. I started to play music for myself instead of for others. There just were no others (except for a wife of whom I don't recall how she was in it).

 

15 years ago, when I was investigating the again new (house) place I live currently, the first which came to me was loud music from the garden of the only neighbor around, some 600ft away. I knew this was the right place because I could not disturb neighbors with my by then quite loud music. Yes, I had to take care not to disturb others. I also learned that "the wife" should not be disturbed and the only solution to that was making the SQ better. Better to the sense that even your wife would ask you to turn UP the volume instead of the other way around. And it really went like that. Since 4-5 years she's even turned into an audiophile herself - amazing.

 

This is not about ego's. Not when you're old enough to realize that this is nonsense. My ego is merely about my house. Costs a tad more as well. The house I owned at 25 was so large and beautiful that persistently people rang the doorbel asking whether my father could come to the door. I am still proudly telling this regularly, like I am doing right now. So in my book, you achieve something by means of the house you live in. And, what I get from it, if you live in a city like LA, you start telling your visitor that although the apartment is not thaaaat large in absolute sense, it costs a fortune because this is LA. So you still are proud and have an ego on that. And to close the circle of this post, that same guy will tell you next that his neighbor is Ozzy Osbourne.

And now my ego could be telling you that I have been in the house right next to the guy creating my first bought vinyl album. Who can say that.