Barriers to Hi-Fi

[Shadders]

11 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

One has to take into account the manufacturing cost to retail price ratio, which for small scale operations, no economies of scale whatsoever, can be 1:15 - one figure I came across. It doesn't take long for this factor to push the number the consumer pays way, way up there ...

Hi,

The 1:15 - what amplifier or manufacturer was this ?.

I can build 2 monoblocks with 280watts (RMS) continuous output power, for less than £1.8k - these will have 8 pairs of output devices per channel etc. Scale this up to 10 amplifiers (5 pairs) then this cost will drop quite a bit.

It is just probably, stack them high, sell them cheap rule - they took a decision, to set the price of sale very high, which makes it high end, and incurs less sales.

Regards,

Shadders.

[firedog]

14 hours ago, Shadders said:

High end uses same components as the lower costing equipment.

 

14 hours ago, Shadders said:

the same basic circuit topology as cheaper units. Nothing special.

 

Well, manufacturers that have posted here like Alex and the late Charles Hansen both have talked about how you can buy "the same" component in varying levels of quality. Cheaper ones that aren't as well made that don't last as long and don't have the same consistent level of performance, and more expensive ones that do perform to tight tolerances and last longer. 

There are also new designs on the market. Not everything is retread. 

[Shadders]

40 minutes ago, firedog said:

 

 

Well, manufacturers that have posted here like Alex and the late Charles Hansen both have talked about how you can buy "the same" component in varying levels of quality. Cheaper ones that aren't as well made that don't last as long and don't have the same consistent level of performance, and more expensive ones that do perform to tight tolerances and last longer. 

There are also new designs on the market. Not everything is retread. 

Hi,

Whatever the component, they are cheap. A 1% resistor is slightly more than the cost of a 5% resistor. Transistors - are just as cheap. An MPSA42/MPSA92 is 24.4p (MPSA92 is 10p cheaper) if you buy five. Assume that 30 are used in stereo amplifier, then this is for the 25+ break point, a total cost of £7.02. You now have your input stage and 50% of the voltage amplification stage completed. Assume 0.1% resistors - assume 50 of these are used for the same part of the amplifier (i/p + VAS), then assume 20p each (some are cheaper, some are more), then we have £10 total.

 

So, for the input stage and voltage amplification stage (50% of), a total of £17.02 will give you a good proportion of the amplifier active and passive components for an amplifier that costs £15k+. Let us quadruple this to include capacitors, and we therefore have £68.08. The cost will increase for the output stage, and power supply, but now you see just how cheap components are.

 

I selected thin film resistors and usually, 1% accuracy is used, as opposed to 0.1%. You can play with the transistor types - lower noise, or matched - but still it is cheap.

 

Maybe, high cost equipment costs what it does because people want to make lots of money, and there is of course, the percentage for the Hifi dealer who may be running a very expensive boutique in a posh part of town.

 

Regards,

Shadders.

[Shadders]

Deleted

[adamdea]

On 1/21/2018 at 5:52 AM, GUTB said:

The key factor seems to be that this is a male lifestyle. As men we tend to tie up our egos with purchasing decisions. As the great majority of online commentary is from men defending thier low-quality purchasing decisions there is no pressure to move newbies into a better starting point. The odd time good advice is given, it’s easy to dismiss it and defend egos. Call it willful ignorance. A dangerous, toxic subset of the ego-driven lo-fi commentator are the militant objectivist cult members; I don’t mean the average objectivist who doesn’t believe in cables or expensive amps, I’m talking about people who think high resolution audio is pure snakeoil. People who say that you can EQ a HD6XX into a Utopia. 

Au contraire. I think I think the main barrier is the absence of any real progress in audio reproduction. As long as there is a living to be made selling snake oil to people who think they are open minded, but in fact just pursue the same misdirected groove round in a circle, there is insufficient incentive in the industry to address the real limitations. These are the room, the ear interface and stereo.

Sadly when SACD and DVD A failed much of the impetus to go beyond stereo for audio went with it. Fortunately movies and gaming still show interest. If the Smyth realiser ever gets off the ground then perhaps we will see some progress.

 

Seriously the idea that the ego barrier here is people trying to justify their low-quality purchasing decisions!- the world can look very odd from the bottom of a rabbit warren. 

[BigAlMc]

I think this thread is getting tied up in an argument about money/value and missing the bigger point. It's not that everyone cannot afford to buy decent audio gear. It's lack of interest, pure and simple. The majority of my mates like music. They just don't care whether they are listening to it on an old crappy stereo, streamed through thier tv's terrible speakers (shudder) or on a phone connected to a basic bluetooth speaker.

 

Ours is a niche hobby. That's it. Educating the masses that they could buy a relatively cheap system with terrific sound quality would not make one iota of difference because they simply don't care.

[mav52]

21 hours ago, GUTB said:

 

Just go to /r/audiophile on Reddit. Also Vinyl Engine, Steve Hoffman. CA is on the higher end of the audio spectrum being mostly older men. Head-Fi is a mix of serious audiophiles and hardcore objectivist have-nothings.

How about providing and actual link(s) , not a month long task of reading thousands of post on multiple forums.  Gee

[realhifi]

Two of the biggest factors in the turn away from traditional Hi-Fi was the invention of the in wall (in ceiling) speaker and Bose. Bose came out with tiny cubes that were sold as “disappearing” speakers and from that moment on the public was convinced you could get great sound from tiny speakers that they could hide anywhere. Women especially saw these new tiny speakers as a godsend and they quickly became a standard and were constantly referenced to by interior designers who wanted to get rid of the “big ugly boxes” (their words, not mine!) that most speaker companies were making at the time. 

 

The in ceiling / in wall speaker took this to yet to yet another level in that you barely had to know something was in the room as it blended into ceilings flush and pretty much completely got out of the way as far as interior decorating. Aesthetic took precedence over sound and pretty soon you saw larger bookshelf or floor standing speakers only in houses where, you guessed it, audiophiles lived. This change has happened over the course of the last 30 odd years as the first in walls were marketed around 1984. 

Anyone that doesn’t think this has been a sea change in how Music is listened to in the home has not been paying attention as it has become THE standard in new home construction. Now it is little wireless speakers that are being touted as the answer with brands like Sonos and (again) Bose leading the charge. Trying to go backward to a time when you walked into a “stereo” shop and saw literally dozens of choices of boxes in many different price ranges is just not going to happen. The majority of the public has moved on from those days and I really can’t imagine that it will change as the industry moves forward. 

[mav52]

5 minutes ago, realhifi said:

Two of the biggest factors in the turn away from traditional Hi-Fi was the invention of the in wall (in ceiling) speaker and Bose. Bose came out with tiny cubes that were sold as “disappearing” speakers and from that moment on the public was convinced you could get great sound from tiny speakers that they could hide anywhere. Women especially saw these new tiny speakers as a godsend and they quickly became a standard and were constantly referenced to by interior designers who wanted to get rid of the “big ugly boxes” (their words, not mine!) that most speaker companies were making at the time. 

 

The in ceiling / in wall speaker took this to yet to yet another level in that you barely had to know something was in the room as it blended into ceilings flush and pretty much completely got out of the way as far as interior decorating. Aesthetic took precedence over sound and pretty soon you saw larger bookshelf or floor standing speakers only in houses where, you guessed it, audiophiles lived. This change has happened over the course of the last 30 odd years as the first in walls were marketed around 1984. 

Anyone that doesn’t think this has been a sea change in how Music is listened to in the home has not been paying attention as it has become THE standard in new home construction. Now it is little wireless speakers that are being touted as the answer with brands like Sonos and (again) Bose leading the charge. Trying to go backward to a time when you walked into a “stereo” shop and saw literally dozens of choices of boxes in many different price ranges is just not going to happen. The majority of the public has moved on from those days and I really can’t imagine that it will change as the industry moves forward. 

 

Ok its like your saying,  blame it on the wifey acceptance factor for the downfall of Hi-Fi , makes one think outside the big old speaker box.

[mansr]

A lot of speakers are quite stylish, if you ask me.

[realhifi]

19 minutes ago, mav52 said:

 

Ok its like your saying,  blame it on the wifey acceptance factor for the downfall of Hi-Fi , makes one think outside the big old speaker box.

 

It’s not a blame game, it’s reality. It’s what happened. Show even the most stylish speaker to an interior designer (not all but vast majority) and see what reaction you get. 

 

I can sell 8 rooms of in ceiling speakers that range from $500 a pair to well over $1500 per pair and some rooms will have four (or more) in each room. Then you need amplification for those speakers, then you need sources, sometimes keypads, touchscreens, remotes, etc.

Or, I can try to sell them a Hi-Fi that sells for same dollar amount. How many of each of those systems do you think I can sell?

[Melvin]

1 hour ago, BigAlMc said:

I think this thread is getting tied up in an argument about money/value and missing the bigger point. It's not that everyone cannot afford to buy decent audio gear. It's lack of interest, pure and simple. The majority of my mates like music. They just don't care whether they are listening to it on an old crappy stereo, streamed through thier tv's terrible speakers (shudder) or on a phone connected to a basic bluetooth speaker.

 

Ours is a niche hobby. That's it. Educating the masses that they could buy a relatively cheap system with terrific sound quality would not make one iota of difference because they simply don't care.

 

+1.  My friends and the vast majority of acquaintances couldn't care less about sound quality. Most, if not all, can honestly hear the differences as well .. they just don't care. Even those friends who could easily afford the best gear couldn't be bothered. Funny, they all seem to enjoy music as much as I do. In fact, many of my friends attend far more concerts than me too. 

[realhifi]

18 minutes ago, mansr said:

A lot of speakers are quite stylish, if you ask me.

I agree, it’s just that MOST interior designers don’t agree. 

[GUTB]

50 minutes ago, mav52 said:

How about providing and actual link(s) , not a month long task of reading thousands of post on multiple forums.  Gee

 

You only need to look at the front page of /r/audiophile to get a taste. For example, guess which image got nearly 400 upvotes?

 

 

The top images are from people who are proud of thier systems — as we can plainly see, one is an audiophile and one is just a millennial lifestyle trendy. Also that grill hanging storing decorative accessories is a really depressing "I have nothing and live in a coffin apartment in Europe!" statement piece.

[mansr]

28 minutes ago, realhifi said:

I agree, it’s just that MOST interior designers don’t agree. 

Why would anyone let an interior designer select their speakers?

[4est]

39 minutes ago, mansr said:

Why would anyone let an interior designer select their speakers?

Who knows for sure, but it happens a lot. I have been involved with high end custom home building my entire career, and have only seen one higher end stereo amid hundreds of full house wall speakers and/or large HT installations.

[mav52]

52 minutes ago, mansr said:

Why would anyone let an interior designer select their speakers?

The ultra rich that have more money than sense.

[GUTB]

12 hours ago, plissken said:

 

And some people, because they know how to really ride a bike, will, using a $100 bike, out ride someone else using a $1000 bike.

 

I had no idea that bikes were so deep. Geometry, compliance, road-vs-mountain-vs-fitness-mixed-vs-etc, materials, electronic gear switching, disc brakes? and a million other things.It seems like any serious bicyclist gets a custom made carbon frame super bike. There's even a graphene bike from the UK.

[wwaldmanfan]

41 minutes ago, GUTB said:

 

I had no idea that bikes were so deep. Geometry, compliance, road-vs-mountain-vs-fitness-mixed-vs-etc, materials, electronic gear switching, disc brakes? and a million other things.It seems like any serious bicyclist gets a custom made carbon frame super bike. There's even a graphene bike from the UK.

 

Depends what floats your boat. Like audio, some folks like the vintage stuff--old McIntosh, for example. Same with bikes. I know a VERY rich guy (Ferrari's, etc.) and a strong rider, who only rides 1980's-'90's Italian steel bikes, of which he owns many.

 

I consider myself a serious bicyclist. I have averaged ~3,000 road miles a year for 25 years, including century rides over 100 miles a day. I don't like plastic bikes. My only bike is a titanium frame that I bought used over 10 years ago for $800, and rebuilt with even older parts. Cycling, like music, for me is not  about the equipment, it's about the experience.

[adamdea]

1 hour ago, 4est said:

Who knows for sure, but it happens a lot. I have been involved with high end custom home building my entire career, and have only seen one higher end stereo amid hundreds of full house wall speakers and/or large HT installations.

Then again, in wall is the ideal location for a speaker. Of course it's fiddly to change which makes for a problem if one's hobby involves changing things.

[rando]

1 hour ago, mansr said:

Why would anyone let an interior designer select their speakers?

 

In two words, design language. They are less speakers than yet another piece of expensive clutter set up to awe.  Trinkets and baubles that all reflect well on each other in artificial ways.  Any small anomaly creating a window into actual interest would destroy the effect. 

 

I facetiously told Chris he should formulate a retort to my Plus Size Women's Clothing volley along the lines of a tie in with a decorator providing WAF speaker grilles and complete equipment rack covers.  An obscure toile pattern here, a  delicately balanced stone facade there.   All of which disappears to a closet as soon as the [insert judgmental guests here] leave.  He was shell shocked enough I almost believe he seriously thought about cutting me out and going it alone.  Have you seen the carpet in his listening room?     

 

(To avoid any suspicions. In the war of the sexes a preemptive attack showing compassion for their needs is always the way forwards to victory)

[rando]

1 hour ago, GUTB said:

 

I had no idea that bikes were so deep. Geometry, compliance, road-vs-mountain-vs-fitness-mixed-vs-etc, materials, electronic gear switching, disc brakes? and a million other things.It seems like any serious bicyclist gets a custom made carbon frame super bike. There's even a graphene bike from the UK.

 

Excuse my Flemish Dutch, dit zijn meestal leugens en stront.  There is more truth in the photo below than anything you will find widely written about any type of cycling.  People come in all size and shapes.  Some of these are more suited to riding a bicycle fast. or for a long time, in greater comfort than others.  Putting the smile on this young boys face on yours or anyone else's is a simple proposition. 

 

 

  Hint: Click the photo.

[new_media]

 

What do you suppose is under the blanket in the corner here?

[mansr]

10 minutes ago, new_media said:

 

What do you suppose is under the blanket in the corner here?

Someone hiding from Roman soldiers.

 

[new_media]

Perfect.