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Barriers to Hi-Fi


GUTB

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15 hours ago, plissken said:

 

And some people, because they know how to really ride a bike, will, using a $100 bike, out ride someone else using a $1000 bike.

Assuming we are talking new prices, anyone who knows how to ride wouldn't be choosing a $100 bike in the first place, as it will likely fall apart long before they reach their destination.  A better analogy is that the same rider will have a much more rewarding and efficient  experience on the $1000 bike.

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15 minutes ago, Norton said:

Assuming we are talking new prices, anyone who knows how to ride wouldn't be choosing a $100 bike in the first place, as it will likely fall apart long before they reach their destination.  A better analogy is that the same rider will have a much more rewarding and efficient  experience on the $1000 bike.

 

A more realistic analogy would have been a highly trained cyclist riding a $1,500 beater would beat a rich newbie on his $15,000 poseur bike. Not sure how this equates to hifi equipment, though.

5a66333d7243a_Screenshot-2018-1-22ferraricolnago-GoogleSearch.thumb.png.b5a680bda879fdc16a3e7c190a245e75.png

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17 minutes ago, wwaldmanfan said:

 

A more realistic analogy would have been a highly trained cyclist riding a $1,500 beater would beat a rich newbie on his $15,000 poseur bike. Not sure how this equates to hifi equipment, though.

5a66333d7243a_Screenshot-2018-1-22ferraricolnago-GoogleSearch.thumb.png.b5a680bda879fdc16a3e7c190a245e75.png

 

Not sure it does  translate as it implies there is such a thing as a skilled listener and difficult to assess empirically who "wins" 

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You would be duly unimpressed if I posted a photo of my $100 steel Trek-shaped-sacrifice-to-road-salt-and-dirt.  Knowing how to ride only makes it funner.  Importantly, 10 years ago nobody thought it was anything worth owning.  Then all of a sudden the 'soft road' bug bit everyone.  Lo and behold a drop bar bike with road geometry that fits wide knobby tires was de rigueur.  Audio is just as prone to things coming around again.  Vinyl and quad recordings for instance.

 

This hangup with racing loses much in the offing.  Anyways, it isn't unheard of for people show up on Walmart bikes to fast group rides and casually drive the pace.  Well sorted Walmart bikes expertly made serviceable, but Walmart bikes all the same.  About the only time it pays to notice if someone is on a very expensive bike is if they are crashing in front of you or to avoid them at the coffee shop.  It's really not all that hard to differentiate someone shivering with muscle from the rest of the population in spite of what they are rolling around on.  Trolling Cat 6 racers excluded.  :ph34r:

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13 minutes ago, GUTB said:

But here’s the thing: a guy on a nanotube frame 15 lbs bike has an equipment advantage over the average bike, won’t he? I can see the equivalency with high end audio.

 

Nearly half that weight. dead serious.  Only then on a long sustained climb where weight matters more than usual.  Stiffness as it pertains to reactivity and handling is one of the major differences.  The second major part is aerodynamics which really start to kick in above 25 mph or so.  Both lead towards efficiency for a given effort. Which along with clothing drag will spit someone in loose clothing and a comfortable upright seating position out the back  from muscle fatigue alone.  The last is the biggest equipment advantage if you would believe it. 

 

Does "it imply there is such a thing as a skilled listener and difficult to assess empirically who "wins" correlation?  Maybe.

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26 minutes ago, GUTB said:

But here’s the thing: a guy on a nanotube frame 15 lbs bike has an equipment advantage over the average bike, won’t he? I can see the equivalency with high end audio.

 

I can see the equivalency also, but from a perhaps more cynical perspective.

 

Perhaps someone who is ideally fit with zero excess body-fat who doesn't carry water bottles or car keys will benefit, but the frame material per se (even if it gives a couple of pounds advantage) is rather less important than the geometry, tires, wheels, gearing and many other factors.  The weight of the rider is far more important, especially for climbing.

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27 minutes ago, GUTB said:

But here’s the thing: a guy on a nanotube frame 15 lbs bike has an equipment advantage over the average bike, won’t he? I can see the equivalency with high end audio.

 

The equivalency with high end audio is that the performance differences between a $5,000 bike and one costing three times as much are almost nil. The rest is exclusivity, status, and bling.

 

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3 minutes ago, wwaldmanfan said:

 

The equivalency with high end audio is that the performance differences between a $5,000 bike and one costing three times as much are almost nil. The rest is exclusivity, status, and bling.

 

 

Really? Are these serious racing bikes from these well known manufacturers just bling and status machines?

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Also, isn’t morale a part of it? If you have the coolest bike, won’t you feel better about the bike and yourself and thereby increase your confidence and enjoyment factor of riding the bike? Are you guys telling me you really don’t want these super "bling" bikes?

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11 hours ago, Shadders said:

Hi,

The 1:15 - what amplifier or manufacturer was this ?.

I can build 2 monoblocks with 280watts (RMS) continuous output power, for less than £1.8k - these will have 8 pairs of output devices per channel etc. Scale this up to 10 amplifiers (5 pairs) then this cost will drop quite a bit.

It is just probably, stack them high, sell them cheap rule - they took a decision, to set the price of sale very high, which makes it high end, and incurs less sales.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

A completely general statement made by someone, who was reacting to another complaining about the high cost of these specialised goods, :P. If you want to make these sort of items as a hobby, and essentially give them away, out of the goodness of your heart, that's fine - but if you're attemping to do it as a way of creating a meaningful income, well ...

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3 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

A completely general statement made by someone, who was reacting to another complaining about the high cost of these specialised goods, :P. If you want to make these sort of items as a hobby, and essentially give them away, out of the goodness of your heart, that's fine - but if you're attemping to do it as a way of creating a meaningful income, well ...

Hi,

I may well go into business, and sell high end hifi. With each purchaser receiving a free mug.

My approach would be make a reasonable profit, and not fleece the gullible. It is possible to earn a living without charging exorbitant amounts of money.

Regards,

Shadders.

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24 minutes ago, Shadders said:

Hi,

I may well go into business, and sell high end hifi. With each purchaser receiving a free mug.

My approach would be make a reasonable profit, and not fleece the gullible. It is possible to earn a living without charging exorbitant amounts of money.

Regards,

Shadders.

My guess is it will be difficult.  Bad business drives out good maybe.  There is no way you can make similar profit to some snake oil products.  As long as the clients are willing to partake of the snake oil a more honest dealer has a problem.  

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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1 minute ago, esldude said:

My guess is it will be difficult.  Bad business drives out good maybe.  There is no way you can make similar profit to some snake oil products.  As long as the clients are willing to partake of the snake oil a more honest dealer has a problem.  

Hi,

I have just seen an amplifier mentioned on another site - blast from the past - i recall that the schematics were available at hifi shows.

The amps have been developed, and sell for $3,000 for a simple 50watt stereo power amplifier, or $7,000 for a 175watt monoblock. Are they worth it ?. Who knows - but the cases are small and old fashoined, the measurements ok i suppose, but there certainly is not the electronics inside them to cost 1/10 of the retail cost.

It takes all sorts  - but you seem to be inferring that you can only make similar profit to high end if you over price the product : "There is no way you can make similar profit to some snake oil products"

 

As i said - i am only interested in making sufficient money, not exorbitant profits. (my first line was a joke - the free mug should have given it away - or if you are US based maybe calling someone a mug is not a term you are familiar with)

Regards,

Shadders.

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7 minutes ago, Shadders said:

Hi,

I have just seen an amplifier mentioned on another site - blast from the past - i recall that the schematics were available at hifi shows.

The amps have been developed, and sell for $3,000 for a simple 50watt stereo power amplifier, or $7,000 for a 175watt monoblock. Are they worth it ?. Who knows - but the cases are small and old fashoined, the measurements ok i suppose, but there certainly is not the electronics inside them to cost 1/10 of the retail cost.

It takes all sorts  - but you seem to be inferring that you can only make similar profit to high end if you over price the product : "There is no way you can make similar profit to some snake oil products"

 

As i said - i am only interested in making sufficient money, not exorbitant profits. (my first line was a joke - the free mug should have given it away - or if you are US based maybe calling someone a mug is not a term you are familiar with)

Regards,

Shadders.

What I am saying is if you make a reasonable profit, and another business makes 500% the profit for the volume of business in time the prosperity of the other business model is likely to drive the former out of the market.   You might find a niche and manage it.  It will be difficult.  

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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1 hour ago, GUTB said:

Also, isn’t morale a part of it? If you have the coolest bike, won’t you feel better about the bike and yourself and thereby increase your confidence and enjoyment factor of riding the bike? Are you guys telling me you really don’t want these super "bling" bikes?

 

I have a (moderately) bling bike. It cost me a lot more than my audio system. The frame was handmade by a local boutique custom builder. It is steel, but of a good quality. It also has other stuff that drives the price up, like hydraulic brakes and electronic shifting. It has a nice hand-built wheel-set from Chris King (aka Chris Bling), and a second from White Industries. But none of this makes me any faster. In absolute terms, I am in fact quite slow, but am very slightly faster on my old 1987 Bianchi. The boutique bike is comfortable, fun to ride, and I enjoy it, but I would not pretend that any of it makes me a better rider, or a faster rider.  If that was my goal, I would have squandered my money.  

 

Last summer I bought my oldest kid (20) an aluminum bike at REI for about $1K. He can kick my arse climbing hills, and he rides about 1 mile for every 10 I do. The age and fitness of the engine have far more to do with ultimate performance than does bike bling.

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1 minute ago, esldude said:

What I am saying is if you make a reasonable profit, and another business makes 500% the profit for the volume of business in time the prosperity of the other business model is likely to drive the former out of the market.   You might find a niche and manage it.  It will be difficult.  

Hi,

I am not sure that will happen. If the products are distinct, and are in different price ranges - then the cheaper may be sell more. The high end product has a bigger profit margin, but sells less unts due to high cost and hence the smller number of people to sell to.

I do not think the high end will drive out the lower cost units, if no one has the funds for the higher end.

Regards,

Shadders.

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18 minutes ago, Shadders said:

Hi,

I have just seen an amplifier mentioned on another site - blast from the past - i recall that the schematics were available at hifi shows.

The amps have been developed, and sell for $3,000 for a simple 50watt stereo power amplifier, or $7,000 for a 175watt monoblock. Are they worth it ?. Who knows - but the cases are small and old fashoined, the measurements ok i suppose, but there certainly is not the electronics inside them to cost 1/10 of the retail cost.

It takes all sorts  - but you seem to be inferring that you can only make similar profit to high end if you over price the product : "There is no way you can make similar profit to some snake oil products"

 

As i said - i am only interested in making sufficient money, not exorbitant profits. (my first line was a joke - the free mug should have given it away - or if you are US based maybe calling someone a mug is not a term you are familiar with)

Regards,

Shadders.

 

I'm not  refuting your point entirely, but I do think you are confusing making something as a hobbyist with running a business.

 

As I understand it, a fairly normal manufacturing model would be to price something at 10x the parts cost, then of course there's VAT to consider.  So if the parts cost of your monoblocs was £1800, a retail price north of £20k would be unexceptional.

 

But there are clearly other models perhaps closer to what you suggest  - the NVA range for example seem exceptionally well priced for something (I presume)  built by the designer  in the UK.

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1 minute ago, Norton said:

 

I'm not  refuting your point entirely, but I do think you are confusing making something as a hobbyist with running a business.

 

As I understand it, a fairly normal manufacturing model would be to price something at 10x the parts cost, then of course there's VAT to consider.  So if the parts cost of your monoblocs was £1800, a retail price north of £20k would be unexceptional.

 

But there are clearly other models perhaps closer to what you suggest  - the NVA range for example seem exceptionally well priced for something (I presume)  built by the designer  in the UK.

Hi,

Yes - low volume production is possibly much cheaper than a business that has to scale with cost of premises etc. If you run a business from home - then the costs are reduced considerably.

Regards,

Shadders.

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