Objective proof the UpTone Regen ISO can improve a DAC's output(*)

[plissken]

41 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

@plissken Take these statements as an example of bias sneaking through. He is supposed to be reporting scientific facts based on measurements. I see a clear bias in these statements.

 

• Like the original Uptone Regen, this too is stuffed in a tiny, commodity hobby project aluminum box:
• Other than trying to save money, I can't figure out why a device like this needs to be stuffed into a small enclosure.

Don't forget his post where he stipulated that a larger enclosure may have allowed them to pay more attention to getting the mains noise of the SMPS down. 

 

41 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

• Anyway, as you see there is not much to the device.

 

There isn't. It's a USB 3.x silicon with some galvanic isolation and a very inexpensive dip switch. 

41 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

• There is a red switch that allows isolation to be turned on and off. It is the chintzy switch that feels like it is going to break any minute when you touch it.

 

I know what switch he's talking about and don't disagree with the assessment of a bottom barrel switch on a $325 device. Looking at my Emotiva DC-1 that has been sold for as little as $429 direct from Emotiva and I heartily agree. 

 

41 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

• As an aside, some of you may know that UpTone cancelled my order of the ISO Regen due not wanting to sell it to me. So I had to resort to a friend of the forum to order it and send it to me. He incurred shipping costs and I will too in sending it back them. Really silly and unprofessional move on their behalf. Note however that none of this has interfered with my judgement of the product.

 

His measurements are his judgement. I've seen no one find fault with the posted measurements. 

41 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

• If someone has seen any measurements that show the output of the DAC to vary with ISO Regen, I love to see it. For now, I have no choice but to declare it ineffective.
• And Cosby says, "there comes [....] the time where you give the ridiculous a chance. "

 

He's found one DAC and he's no longer declaring it 'ineffective'. This isn't on Amir, it's on Alex. Yes this part is solely to blame on UpTone. I've asked multiple times for Alex over the past year to name 1 DAC that showed a marked improvement. Yet no answer forthcoming. 

 

He basically said given his experience and what he as able to bench the regen with that at that point in time 'For Now' he would have to declare it ineffective. It's not a painted into a corner position. 

 

My suggestion is get a DAC from a manufacturer that actually posts what the output does and how well composed the DAC is. Benchmark does, Emotiva does, you can look at other manufacturers for this also. 

 

41 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Then, 22 comments into the article and on the seconds page, below the measurements, he says the ISO Regen is actually help full. No mention of this in the main article where most people will read and come to conclusions. If this was your product, would you be OK with this, knowing that people won't even get to the seconds page?

 

This is a matter of interpretation. If the ISOR helps all these high priced DAC's out then there are a bunch of audiophiles with gear that are steaming piles of junk.

 

41 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

Edit: Many people have suggested that his method is like a scientific paper with peer review. Based on the above, I don't believe so.

Many have suggested if he's in error then others can prove him wrong. I don't know so much about the 'scientific' part. Your bias is clearly showing through on this. You've an axe to grind. 

[esldude]

2 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Agreed. I would like to remove that comment, but don't want to be seen as removing something of substance when it is brought up etc... I know it sounds strange, but I feel like someone would call me biased for removing it after it was brought up.

Yes it sounds very strange. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

34 minutes ago, plissken said:

Don't forget his post where he stipulated that a larger enclosure may have allowed them to pay more attention to getting the mains noise of the SMPS down. 

 

 

There isn't. It's a USB 3.x silicon with some galvanic isolation and a very inexpensive dip switch. 

 

I know what switch he's talking about and don't disagree with the assessment of a bottom barrel switch on a $325 device. Looking at my Emotiva DC-1 that has been sold for as little as $429 direct from Emotiva and I heartily agree. 

 

 

His measurements are his judgement. I've seen no one find fault with the posted measurements. 

 

He's found one DAC and he's no longer declaring it 'ineffective'. This isn't on Amir, it's on Alex. Yes this part is solely to blame on UpTone. I've asked multiple times for Alex over the past year to name 1 DAC that showed a marked improvement. Yet no answer forthcoming. 

 

He basically said given his experience and what he as able to bench the regen with that at that point in time 'For Now' he would have to declare it ineffective. It's not a painted into a corner position. 

 

My suggestion is get a DAC from a manufacturer that actually posts what the output does and how well composed the DAC is. Benchmark does, Emotiva does, you can look at other manufacturers for this also. 

 

 

This is a matter of interpretation. If the ISOR helps all these high priced DAC's out then there are a bunch of audiophiles with gear that are steaming piles of junk.

 

Many have suggested if he's in error then others can prove him wrong. I don't know so much about the 'scientific' part. Your bias is clearly showing through on this. You've an axe to grind. 

 

 

 

If you don't see the word selection as showing a bias, there's not much I can do. We'll just disagree. I write for a living. When I'm looking to describe a product in a balanced way, I don't use anything like those words. If I wanted to quietly disparage a product, I'd sneak in cheap shots. However, that's not me. 

 

You're still not addressing the fact that when this product helped a DAC that has sold thousands of units, he left it as a second page "footnote." Instead, you call it a bad DAC, not a good Regen, and most people don't see that it may help them. Oh well. 

 

Read through the comments in this thread. People are suggesting he operates just like a scientific paper / process with peer review. I didn't make that up. I couldn't have in this case.

[Superdad]

22 minutes ago, plissken said:

Don't forget his post where he stipulated that a larger enclosure may have allowed them to pay more attention to getting the mains noise of the SMPS down. 

 

The point of the small enclosure since the very beginning is to allow the device to plug directly into the input of the DAC without using another SI degrading cable.  That is also why we came out with the USPCB A>B Adapter (a 4-layer board with stripline impedance control).

There is already plenty of ultra-low-noise regulation in the ISO REGEN (see below), and SMPS leakage current through ground is not something that one just gets rid of easily on-board.  That's why 60% of the buyers choose to use a linear supply.

 

22 minutes ago, plissken said:

There isn't. It's a USB 3.x silicon with some galvanic isolation and a very inexpensive dip switch.

 

Really?  Is that all there is?  Have you seen the BOM for the board?  There are 78 parts on it, including over $20 in the world's lowest-noise voltage regulators, a $20 galvanic isolator chip, the lowest-phase noise production XO, and a carefully crafted power network--all also on a 4-layer board.

 

22 minutes ago, plissken said:

I know what switch he's talking about and don't disagree with the assessment of a bottom barrel switch on a $325 device. Looking at my Emotiva DC-1 that has been sold for as little as $429 direct from Emotiva and I heartily agree. 

 

The switch?  Yes, they cost us only $0.11 (in 1,000 pc. qty.).  But it is actually a quality DIP switch from a reputable manufacturer. Find me another single-pole, right-angle switch that will fit in that spot at the input of the board.  It is only meant to be used as a diagnostic tool to defeat the galvanic isolation if need. That is why it is a recessed DIP switch.

 

22 minutes ago, plissken said:

This is a matter of interpretation. If the ISOR helps all these high priced DAC's out then there are a bunch of audiophiles with gear that are steaming piles of junk.

 

NEWS FLASH:

Standard jitter and noise measurements fail to correlate to a LOT of the differences that people hear with digital components.  Amir himself has proven that with tests of a $79 DAC showing those metrics to equal megabuck DACs.  But are you really saying that nobody can hear the musical differences between them?

 

John and others are developing tests and equipment that we hope will show and prove what we have been saying--and what thousands of people have been hearing--with regards to upstream jitter and SI affecting DAC performance.  And yes, I mean at the analog output.  (The effects can already be measured on the ground-plane and at the clock inside the DAC.)

[plissken]

55 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

You're still not addressing the fact that when this product helped a DAC that has sold thousands of units, he left it as a second page "footnote." Instead, you call it a bad DAC, not a good Regen, and most people don't see that it may help them. Oh well. 

 

Correct, it's a bad DAC. A good Regen would improve all. That's the premise behind the product. It's supposed to allow the circuitry in DAC's to work less therefore improving the Analog output. 

 

55 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

Read through the comments in this thread. People are suggesting he operates just like a scientific paper / process with peer review. I didn't make that up. I couldn't have in this case.

 

Then you should acknowledge the people that said it's just measurements and they are open to interpretation and rebuttal. 

[plissken]

52 minutes ago, Superdad said:

NEWS FLASH:

Standard jitter and noise measurements fail to correlate to a LOT of the differences that people hear with digital components.  Amir himself has proven that with tests of a $79 DAC showing those metrics to equal megabuck DACs.  But are you really saying that nobody can hear the musical differences between them?

 

Why do you refuse to sit for a biased controlled evaluation if you are so convinced of the above? 

 

I'm saying that with two, well designed, competent, DAC's you can't hear the difference with your ISOR or not. Instead of dropping $655 plus the cost of a DAC, just get a good DAC. 

 

Would you be willing to hold a blind evaluation event at RMAF or Axpona 2018? 

 

 

[plissken]

What DAC, what track, in what format can I most easily evaluate the ISOR? Just looking for suggestions here.

[Siltech817]

14 hours ago, esldude said:

 

So what is the DAC which sounds poor with the Macbook USB?

 

Several that I own, and others I have borrowed (both low and high price points): PS Audio, SIMaudio, Resonessence Labs, Musical Fidelity, iFi, etc...

But remember the original question was the sound as compared to a good disc player. So it isn't fair to say these DACs sound "poor" (your words not mine) over USB from a Macbook, just as compared to a good disc player the sound is both veiled and noticeably smaller in soundstage, with inferior stereo image focus. It's of course listenable, but I'm interested in besting the disc player. 

Thank you for your input, but I figured out yesterday I was in the wrong thread entirely, and was pointed to a thread with actual end users of the IsoREGEN that can provide first hand experience and comparisons to other set-ups. Thats probably going to be a better barometer for me than the (apparently) infamous Amir's measurements are.

[soupdujour]

52 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

Why do you refuse to sit for a biased controlled evaluation if you are so convinced of the above? 

 

I'm saying that with two, well designed, competent, DAC's you can't hear the difference with your ISOR or not. Instead of dropping $655 plus the cost of a DAC, just get a good DAC. 

 

Would you be willing to hold a blind evaluation event at RMAF or Axpona 2018? 

 

 

 

I don't consider the Mytek Brooklyn to be a cheap, poorly designed DAC, which is something consistent with what professional reviewers says.  Nevertheless, the ISO REGEN definitely contributes to the enjoyment of my listening experience when the audio delivered through it is preceded by the IR.  Whether there's hard data to support this assertion is irrelevant to me; every single person who hears my audio rig agrees that the IR adds realism to the listening experience.  So unless you assert that the Brooklyn is NOT a competent and well-designed DAC, I just don't understand your point. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

After catching up with this thread, then taking a break from it, I just realized how much time I wasted talking about some of this. I'd rather talk about some of the more enjoyable parts of our hobby, even with the same people that I disagree with in this thread. 

 

Perhaps this stuff brings out the not-so-fun side in some of us. I'm done with this topic :~)

[Sal1950]

2 hours ago, Superdad said:

NEWS FLASH:

Standard jitter and noise measurements fail to correlate to a LOT of the differences that people hear with digital components.  Amir himself has proven that with tests of a $79 DAC showing those metrics to equal megabuck DACs.  But are you really saying that nobody can hear the musical differences between them?

 

2 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Read through the comments in this thread. People are suggesting he operates just like a scientific paper / process with peer review. I didn't make that up. I couldn't have in this case.

 

1 hour ago, plissken said:

Why do you refuse to sit for a biased controlled evaluation if you are so convinced of the above? 

 

I'm saying that with two, well designed, competent, DAC's you can't hear the difference with your ISOR or not. Instead of dropping $655 plus the cost of a DAC, just get a good DAC. 

 

Would you be willing to hold a blind evaluation event at RMAF or Axpona 2018? 

 

Enough of this! I agree Chris

 

So who here is really interested in advancing the State Of The Art?  Time to be getting beyond all this  "last night as I sat there looking at the new Product X I just bought for $xxxxx dollars, my system sounded so much better"  Talk about BIAS!.

I've proposed this to Amir but how about you Chris  @The Computer Audiophile  get onboard a plan to start setting up some bias controlled blind listening and find out what products really add value and those that may be marginal at best. Next big audio show using some high quality headphones and switching setups, along with a blind,  anonymous (if desired) paper voting system.

This industry needs to have some integrity and respect regained,  lets start backing claims with supportable evidence.

 

2 hours ago, Superdad said:

John and others are developing tests and equipment that we hope will show and prove what we have been saying--and what thousands of people have been hearing--with regards to upstream jitter and SI affecting DAC performance.  And yes, I mean at the analog output.  (The effects can already be measured on the ground-plane and at the clock inside the DAC.)

Time to put up or shut up Alex, we've all heard this claim from you for quite some time now. "You guys are going to put up repeatable measurements,  and reveal a new magic dust analyzer that will prove your claims of audibility.. "We're waiting for it!

Is this what you want me banned for?  Requesting you come thru with your continued promises?  Or is it you just don't like being held accountable?

[Ralf11]

some blind testing would be a blessing

[tmtomh]

6 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

It wasn't me who said that. What's going on here?

 

Chris, my understanding is that you directed us to comments Amir has made on his web site. In my reply to you, above, I said that I accept your point - in other words, if Amir has made problematic comments on his site, which indicate he is not operating in good faith, I will check that out. If I am mistaken and you didn't point us to that, my apologies.

 

As for the character assassination (the claims that Amir has a personality disorder and so on), I did not mean to imply that you said that. If the way my comment was written implied that, it was purely based on unclear writing, not on any bad intention on my part.

 

Does this help clear things up? 

[Thomas savage]

4 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

 

 

If you don't see the word selection as showing a bias, there's not much I can do. We'll just disagree. I write for a living. When I'm looking to describe a product in a balanced way, I don't use anything like those words. If I wanted to quietly disparage a product, I'd sneak in cheap shots. However, that's not me. 

 

You're still not addressing the fact that when this product helped a DAC that has sold thousands of units, he left it as a second page "footnote." Instead, you call it a bad DAC, not a good Regen, and most people don't see that it may help them. Oh well. 

 

Read through the comments in this thread. People are suggesting he operates just like a scientific paper / process with peer review. I didn't make that up. I couldn't have in this case.

Read more  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Reply .., 

 

That's the process of the threads, a peer review process of the data and his conclusions.

 

I never said he writes scientific papers Chris and I'm not sure anyone else has, at least if he has then his equipment testing threads are not in that vein. 

 

Amir is not trying to sell anything, there's no commercial intrest at ASR, there obviously is here though.  Iv read a few of your reviews, they are well written but are not technical tear downs like at ASR , broadly speaking they are all part of a industry promotion and are written to avoid any commercial conflict. 

 

Thats fine, this is a corporate space, a commercial vested intrest. You court sponsorship.  It's obvious in your style of writing Chris , it's very corporate, very professional, a little bland but thats a asset in the corporate arena. Nothing wrong with that but it's not what amirs about at ASR. 

 

He comes at it without any such commecial concerns, without having to please any manufacturer or vested financial interest. 

 

He gives his opinion on what he finds, that's bias definitely.. towards wanting to see good engineering and getting disappointed when things are not right.. He expresses that disappointment in his own way, he has a bias for excellent engineering in audio. 

 

You seem to want to pin a financial intrest on him but respectfully I'd suggest that's actually you just projecting your own values onto amir and what he's doing. 

 

If amir is trying to promote something other that good engineering, something pertaining to his own commercial intrest he's doing a crap job. I see no such intentions, if there were id be out of there in a flash. 

 

Im not at all intrested in the bland banality that comes with such commercial concerns, fortunately at present non are existing at ASR.  There are a few pedantic buggers who annoy the hell out of me, I can see why some Audiophiles avoid objective forums . I can see how some would get riled when asked to give evidence to back ' what they reckon' or are challenged when using certain audiophile terms, they can start getting angry ( often passive aggressive) and post nonsensical stuff as we have seen here, that's a normal and understandable reaction to being put in a position your not used to and knowing your incapable of substantiating your ideas in the terms being asked.  It's a unpleasant feeling and it makes people lash out a bit. 

 

Its much easier for most casual audiophiles or guys with a non technical background and no intrest in gaining knowledge on that level to just come to places like this.  Tbh probably easier for me too. I'm not used to being challenged in that way either, and I don't like it tbh but that's my false not the guys at ASR. 

 

This and places like it are a post modernist delight , maybe I should change sides.. you have just got to get rid of all the advertisements?  

 

   

 

 

[Thomas savage]

Here a example of me ( moderator, content manager at ASR) taking amir to task on a issue. No bias, no vested interests from me. I'm happy to ask the awkward questions, it's essential we appear even handed and transparent at all times. ( if you regularly read ASR you will see me doing this kind of thing fairly often, you will also see me taking the piss out of him, in the spirit of fun of course) 

 

 http://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/measurements-and-review-of-sotm-sms-200-network-player-part-1.1846/#post-47092

 

If amir was half the things he's been accused of in this thread I would not have a job there, I'm a completely different person to amir with a extraordinarily different background. If he had a agenda then I'm not the man to employ, if he has commercial motives I'm not the man to employ, if he wanted everything his way I'm not the man to employ. 

 

However hes been a delight to work with, he's given me complete freedom to go about my business as I wish (to his own detriment at times imo) , he's been without ego in our dealings behind the scenes and I know he's put his faith in my judgment even when it ran contrary to his own and was more than happy to do so.  A fair mark of any man, to put power to one side and freely over it to someone very different from yourself! 

 

Hes is a bit flamboyant with his prose in public but you can be like that when your not selling anything and it's that freedom both he and myself enjoy and it's that freedom that's the foundation of the forum and all our members enjoy. 

 

He can be dogmatic, carry on arguing like it's his profession but his integrity is in my experience beyond reproach. To me personally He's been warm, fun, kind, knowing and extremely generous both with me and in giving his time to do the tests and produce the articles that he does and has been doing for years in various places/publications.  Not because of some commercial master plan or gorilla marketing campaign but because his has a passion for genuine audio engineering. 

 

The great thing about the objective data based measuring approach to audio is you can disagree with all of that above , think we are a pair of areseholes and all the members are pedantic old sods  but the data is the data, the numbers are the numbers they don't need to be liked to be valid. There's a thing called audio engineering and it's what ASR is about. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mansr]

10 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

He could lose a lot of money by posting measurements of the products he sells and already has readily available.

And Alex couldn't?

[plissken]

1 hour ago, mansr said:

And Alex couldn't?

 

This is why he refuses a bias controlled evaluation of his own product. 

[k-man]

3 hours ago, Thomas savage said:

if he has commercial motives I'm not the man to employ, if he wanted everything his way I'm not the man to employ. 

 

3 hours ago, Thomas savage said:

Not because of some commercial master plan

I noticed there is a Dealer (wittily titled) section in the forum, and the one dealer who benefits is Purite Audio. Did he pay money to the site to have his own section? Which other dealers can join? Of course I don't see advertising banners, but ASR can gain by increasing the companies who can sponsor?

[firedog]

One  problem I see at ASR is that they confuse "taking a measurement" with arriving at a  scientifically proven conclusion. They don't seem to understand the difference. 

 

Another is that many  posters there seem to revel in being nasty jerks. I tried to point out that there is a difference between measuring something - what the posters there insist, for some reason, is the same as a scientific proof - and coming to a scientifically valid conclusion. 

 

For that effort I was repeatedly insulted there, and won't go back.

 

I won't be surprised if this post also gets me some defensive and nasty replies from some of the people that post there....

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

OK guys, 20 pages into this one and it's still an ugly dumpster fire. I accept responsibility for stoking the fire with my posts. It wasn't my intention, but I got sucked in. When I receive so many reported posts from a single topic and I believe one story isn't being told, I feel the need to jump in. However, I clearly didn't help the situation. My mistake. 

 

I know this will sound strange, but I want to offer an apology to Amir. There was some nasty stuff said about him in this topic and it isn't representative of the CA Community. I will include myself in this apology, as I wish I wouldn't have written about him personally. Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, and I feel like I threw some stones. My mistake. 

 

With this said, the topic is now closed. We have much more interested topics to discuss as a community and topics that will increase our enjoyment of this wonderful hobby.