Objective proof the UpTone Regen ISO can improve a DAC's output(*)

[esldude]

10 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

@Superdad said: "The majority of the people in this thread deny that USB cables, computer source variation, or USB signal integrity and clocking can make an audible difference"

 

however, those same people will rail against MQA leaky filters, even though they may not be audible. They haven't bothered to listen for audibility. It's only used when it supports their point of view. 

I don't know if they are audible.  Using leaky filters that increase aliasing is not a 'feature' for which I wish to pay or have restrict how I listen to a recording.  I guess I am just strange that way.  Doubly so when there is a campaign to tell me it is superior performance rather an inferior. Even more so when people stand to gain money from this inferior digital performance. 

[esldude]

3 hours ago, Thomas savage said:

That's actually the point Chris, to show the workings and be open to challenge. It would be easy and tbh in amirs intrest to of deleted a bit of the microrendu thread and reposted without the errors ( there was no such errors in the latest ISO regen thread) but that would of not been transparent. ( though I'm not sure these corrections rendered the thread title obsolete) .

 

You can argue he shots himself in the foot but by doing so showed he is genuinely open and transparent. ( I'd suggest that shows integrity not any kind of false as you seen to allude to).

 

the threads are a process , that process of review is designed to show errors and reinforce the objective of accurate results. Going back and rewitting history is not part of the process though it may provide some advantage as you suggest plus tbh make amir himself look better.  

 

Hes not intrested in that, he's just interested in the data being reviewed, more importantly being seen to be reviewed. 

 

But yes, the result of that is you have to follow the threads. Being wrong is not a crime nor is it something that should hurt ones ego or a basis for deception. Personally I don't see what's wrong with that. 

 

There were mistakes made on the microrendu thread, but they have not been repeated on the ISO regen thread.  In fact the further investigation carried out in the ISO regen thread serves to validate the microrendu threads conclusions on those psu issues. 

 

Its all open, transparent and there to be seen for all. For better or for worse that's the process we believe to be right. The peer review process. 

 

It might however be wise, given a amount of time to open a new thread that reflects the findings of the review process. A kind of ' what be learnt ' or ' conclusion' thread that clearly supersedes the original review process.  

That does however happen organically in the review threads themselves so I'm not sure just how useful or practical that would be tbh. 

I posted a few measurements in a thread there a few weeks back.  Discovered a mistake.  Said so, and asked if Amir preferred I clean it up or delete the thread.  He said something like mistakes happen, and are honest, and how we move forward.  Said to leave it as it was. People would see what went on transparently.

[k-man]

4 hours ago, Dicky said:

Congrats... you just lost a sale. 

How is that so?

 

If the political message that you quoted offended you, wouldn't have been better to just to report it?

Otherwise the post was only a call for calm.

[esldude]

10 hours ago, Digital Assassin said:

Amir has massive personality disorders. He also has a unmanageable burning jealousy and vindictiveness against successful, smart entrepreneurs, who bring excellent products to market at very fair prices. Because as an "engineer" he has never been able to ever produce a commercially viable audio product.

 

No wonder, he knows nothing about audio. He did not even have a music collection until 2 years ago, if that.

I guess that is why he tested a $79 DAC and posted a thread about how it performs better than expected.  He is jealous of people accomplishing anything.  Especially successful companies.  Yeah, that's it. 

 

The bit about a music collection.  I guess if you can't make reality based criticisms just make something up in your head.  Much easier to look like you're someone worth listening to that way. 

[plissken]

Chris, could something be done about Digital Assassin and the unsubstantiated character assassination. His postings directly correlate to his forum name here. 

 

I already put him on my ignore list but still seeing his posts due to others responses to him. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

@pkane2001 and @Thomas savage I'm not arguing against or suggesting shouldn't be open to corrections and the whole process showing transparency. 

 

My issue is that this stuff is berries in footnotes. Perhaps it's just not attractive to the readers of that site, if the headline said the Regen may help, hurt, or be of no consequence.  

All the articles are just so open to being picked apart. If one truly had an altruistic passion for showing facts, things could be done so much differently. In fact, it's probably much easier to publish this stuff without the anecdotal bias and footnotes. Then again, traffic to that site would be vastly different and most people wouldn't know who Amir is. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

39 minutes ago, plissken said:

Chris, could something be done about Digital Assassin and the unsubstantiated character assassination. His postings directly correlate to his forum name here. 

 

I already put him on my ignore list but still seeing his posts due to others responses to him. 

 

I'm trying to keep up with this thread, but the report post function works best when people see offensive / against the rules posts. 

 

P.S. I'm doing this all from my phone as I'm not at home right now. 

[plissken]

8 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

@pkane2001 and @Thomas savage I'm not arguing against or suggesting shouldn't be open to corrections and the whole process showing transparency. 

 

My issue is that this stuff is berries in footnotes. Perhaps it's just not attractive to the readers of that site, if the headline said the Regen may help, hurt, or be of no consequence.  

All the articles are just so open to being picked apart. If one truly had an altruistic passion for showing facts, things could be done so much differently. In fact, it's probably much easier to publish this stuff without the anecdotal bias and footnotes. Then again, traffic to that site would be vastly different and most people wouldn't know who Amir is. 

 

You could ask Amir and I agree with your point. Even in this thread I put an * in with the title. And when I created the thread I didn't know about the SMPS noise but alas I can't modify the thread title. 

 

I'm still dubious of the ISOR for two reasons in most applications: It's not showing measured improvement on some DACs and indeed showing the opposite. And no quantitative data from Alex. 

[plissken]

50 minutes ago, esldude said:

I guess that is why he tested a $79 DAC and posted a thread about how it performs better than expected.  He is jealous of people accomplishing anything.  Especially successful companies.  Yeah, that's it. 

 

I never understood that line of inquiry in light of him being surprised about a $79 DAC. It doesn't matter if he does/doesn't bench the Berkeley units he sells because inclusion or lack of those units benched have nothing to do with the performance of the Behringer. 

 

You would think he has a bias toward high profit margin products his business depends on but yet there it is: A $79 box that doesn't suck. 

[Thomas savage]

48 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

@pkane2001 and @Thomas savage I'm not arguing against or suggesting shouldn't be open to corrections and the whole process showing transparency. 

 

My issue is that this stuff is berries in footnotes. Perhaps it's just not attractive to the readers of that site, if the headline said the Regen may help, hurt, or be of no consequence.  

All the articles are just so open to being picked apart. If one truly had an altruistic passion for showing facts, things could be done so much differently. In fact, it's probably much easier to publish this stuff without the anecdotal bias and footnotes. Then again, traffic to that site would be vastly different and most people wouldn't know who Amir is. 

Read more  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

( something strange has happened to this quoted post ) 

 

reply..., 

 

I think your still missing the point, articles being "picked apart" is what the review process is.  This happens to all items submitted for peer review the world over. 

 

The style amir has in putting forward his articals , well that's down to him. It's not a sterile personality free environment but I can understand your point, however providing a context and a certain narrative as he does has no effect on the data or its integrity. 

 

Maybe amir could provide you with objective measurements for your subjective reviews here like JA does at stereophile magazine? You know, just the numbers no chit chat 

 

if you have no intrest in objective measurements in audio then no amount of presentation tweaking can help. The objective at ASR is very different to somewhere like this. I try to make it as inclusive as I can but ultimately it's never going to be for everyone. Most people don't like having to quantify their musings when it comes to audio.  They just like to paint a picture with words than pertains to their perception only and requires no other vindication other than what they reckon. In terms of that dynamic the internet is stuffed full of forums and is in no need of more of the same. 

 

Anyway im sure computer Audiophile forum has better things to do that discuss ASR forum lol  

 

it's been nice bumping into yet more of amirs online friends  

 

iv  had a look around , it's a nice place you have all built here. I will swing by and hopefully contribute in a vein more appropriate than waxing on about ASR and amir. 

 

Cheers 

 

 

 

 

[Sal1950]

2 hours ago, pkane2001 said:

 

The measurement process is designed to allow for errors, error detection, and error correction. That's why it's a better process than, for example, sighted listening or blind faith. Neither one of these allow for error detection or correction by others. Nobody can prove or even question that you hear a 'veil lifted' or 'sound stage increased' if you find this in an uncontrolled test. In the absence of error detection and correction, errors, biases, placebos, and agendas are rampant. 

 

While measurements can be proven right or wrong by others, uncontrolled tests are simply reports of someone else's (often biased) opinions. As such, these cannot be proven right or wrong, as opinions vary. That's why it's almost a necessity to question someone's personal agenda, accomplishments, or personality traits when discussing subjective tests -- there's nothing else to debate or to question. But these discussions are irrelevant to published measurements. Published measurements are subject to peer review, validation, or repudiation without the need to get personal. Biased opinions or not, measurements stand on their own.

 

That's why it's laughable when the subjectivist crowd tries to accuse Amir of bias. Not that he's not biased -- everyone is. It's just that this is irrelevant to the measurements he published and to the review process that ensued.

Excellent post @pkane2001, right at the very top of what's been written to this entire thread.

[Albrecht]

14 hours ago, plissken said:

 

Then your option is to take someone that is wrong and prove them wrong. 

 

Jeez how can't people not get this simple concept?

Hi,

Done and done. The question is, do you accept or deny said proof?

[plissken]

6 minutes ago, Albrecht said:

Hi,

Done and done. The question is, do you accept or deny said proof?

 

What proof did you provide?

[jrd1975]

Personally this thread has had a negative impact on my purchasing experience of said ISO Regen. My order was placed in July and will be fulfilled in late August.

 

Something I was eagerly anticipating has become a "have I made a $300 mistake?"

 

I have even felt like cancelling. 

 

I won't though - as I will look to keep an open mind, which I feel (personally) is perhaps more important to the enjoyment of life and music.

 

Subjectively.... music is created by people with passion at times with hope, despair, joy, craziness and much more.

 

Created with immaculate performances, performances riddled with error, recorded to perfection, recorded with horrific sound....

 

So - yes when we listen we are not able to perfectly "measure" whether our equipment is reproducing what took place - but maybe it is not meant to...... and neither are we. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MikeyFresh]

4 hours ago, Thomas savage said:

it's been nice bumping into yet more of amirs online friends

 

More of? No, it's the same group you were already familiar with.

[MikeyFresh]

Duplicate with the post below...

[MikeyFresh]

14 hours ago, Thomas savage said:

but he made no huge song and dance about this vindication. No big victory lap or ridicule aimed at his detractors.

 

Neither did Amir take the walk of shame after publishing the hugely botched "measurements" in the microRendu debacle. All he did was try to shift the focus and blame onto iFi, another very successful firm with a track record in producing good products at reasonable prices, designed by an engineer whose reputation is beyond reproach. 

 

I've also got to disagree with your contention that Amir lets the original record stand, even when he is wrong. He most definitely edited various posts in that microRendu botch job, however as the site owner and admin. he was able to do so in a way that (only somewhat) covered his tracks and provided revisionist history for folks like you to quote. But he most certainly altered the record, I saw it as did many others.

 

Yes that original botch job calls his competence entirely into question. And even if viewed as still competent, Amir is clearly so deeply biased and with an underlying agenda at play, that all of his measurements and more specifically the "conclusions" arrived at are suspect at best. These are called self-fulfilling prophecies, the preexisting dogma needs to be substantiated, and so it is by various means including only showing the predetermined and desirable "result".

[lmitche]

53 minutes ago, jrd1975 said:

Personally this thread has had a negative impact on my purchasing experience of said ISO Regen. My order was placed in July and will be fulfilled in late August.

 

Something I was eagerly anticipating has become a "have I made a $300 mistake?"

 

I have even felt like cancelling. 

 

I won't though - as I will look to keep an open mind, which I feel (personally) is perhaps more important to the enjoyment of life and music.

 

Subjectively.... music is created by people with passion at times with hope, despair, joy, craziness and much more.

 

Created with immaculate performances, performances riddled with error, recorded to perfection, recorded with horrific sound....

 

So - yes when we listen we are not able to perfectly "measure" whether our equipment is reproducing what took place - but maybe it is not meant to...... and neither are we. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jrd, when you get your ISO Regen please let us know if you have any questions on how to get the best out of it.  Also, it would be great if you could share your listening impressions, good or bad, in the Uptone thread. Thanks.

[Superdad]

19 minutes ago, Digital Assassin said:

I a NOT speaking for Alex. But if I WAS Alex I would refund your money, and I would even pay you not to EVER even think about being a customer again.

 

Just like when Alex cancelled Amir's order and told him to take a hike.

 

This is the second time I am asking you to KNOCK IT OFF!

 

The fellow was expressing some honest feelings of doubt.  Whether or not he decides to cancel his order or to receive the device and listen for himself (with 30-day money-back return privileges) is entirely his own business.  

And UpTone is my business, not yours.  

Please stop inflaming things here.

 

--Alex C.

 

P.S.  About the only two people I have every wished would be banned from CA (and yet I never have recommended such) are you and Sal.  Guess I little tolerance for extreme radicalism on either side (in audio, politics, or life). 

[Dicky]

8 hours ago, k-man said:

If the political message that you quoted offended you, wouldn't have been better to just to report it?

Otherwise the post was only a call for calm.

Offense doesn't enter the equation. It was a clarifying comment that screamed, "I don't want your business". Not the 1st time that @Superdad has engaged in a little virtue signalling. 
 

What his political bent has to do with audio, power supplies and galvanic isolation is a mystery to me. It's not why I'm here. But apparently Uptone has made a determination that disparaging and alienating half of its potential customer base is a sound business model. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 minutes ago, Dicky said:

apparently Uptone has made a determination that disparaging and alienating half of its potential customer base is a sound business model. 

Give me a break. You're reading way further into this than anyone should. 

[Fitzcaraldo215]

2 hours ago, MikeyFresh said:

 

Neither did Amir take the walk of shame after publishing the hugely botched "measurements" in the microRendu debacle. All he did was try to shift the focus and blame onto iFi, another very successful firm with a track record in producing good products at reasonable prices, designed by an engineer whose reputation is beyond reproach. 

 

I've also got to disagree with your contention that Amir lets the original record stand, even when he is wrong. He most definitely edited various posts in that microRendu botch job, however as the site owner and admin. he was able to do so in a way that (only somewhat) covered his tracks and provided revisionist history for folks like you to quote. But he most certainly altered the record, I saw it as did many others.

 

Yes that original botch job calls his competence entirely into question. And even if viewed as still competent, Amir is clearly so deeply biased and with an underlying agenda at play, that all of his measurements and more specifically the "conclusions" arrived at are suspect at best. These are called self-fulfilling prophecies, the preexisting dogma needs to be substantiated, and so it is by various means including only showing the predetermined and desirable "result".

Evidence?

[Dicky]

11 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Give me a break. You're reading way further into this than anyone should. 

Chris - At the risk of redundancy I"ll reiterate... 1) not @Superdad's first foray into political discourse and 2) not why I'm here. 
 

I'll add a 3)... You'd have to be sympathetic to his POV to react as you did. Your site. Your prerogative.  

[Fitzcaraldo215]

2 minutes ago, Dicky said:

Chris - At the risk of redundancy I"ll reiterate... 1) not @Superdad's first foray into political discourse and 2) not why I'm here. 
 

I'll add a 3)... You'd have to be sympathetic to his POV to react as you did. Your site. Your prerogative.  

I quite agree.  Chris ain't neutral and unbiased in this particular discussion

[The Computer Audiophile]

21 minutes ago, Dicky said:

Chris - At the risk of redundancy I"ll reiterate... 1) not @Superdad's first foray into political discourse and 2) not why I'm here. 
 

I'll add a 3)... You'd have to be sympathetic to his POV to react as you did. Your site. Your prerogative.  

 

I honestly don't even know what he said that was political. I didn't read that into anything he said. Thus, I can't be sympathetic to whatever cause it was, if I don't know what it was. 

 

 

 

 

17 minutes ago, Fitzcaraldo215 said:

I quite agree.  Chris ain't neutral and unbiased in this particular discussion

 

Please give me examples.