Objective proof the UpTone Regen ISO can improve a DAC's output(*)

[plissken]

As some may or may not be aware Amir at AudioScienceReview.com has been benching DACs for some Jitter/Distortion base lining.

 

The worst measuring DAC he has is a Schitt Modi 2 that he applied the Regen ISO against (other DAC's remained unaffected).

 

[pkane2001]

31 minutes ago, plissken said:

As some may or may not be aware Amir at AudioScienceReview.com has been benching DACs for some Jitter/Distortion base lining.

 

The worst measuring DAC he has is a Schitt Modi 2 that he applied the Regen ISO against (other DAC's remained unaffected).

 

 

Looks like it cleans up the dirty 5v supply pretty well.

[plissken]

10 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Looks like it cleans up the dirty 5v supply pretty well.

 

Sure does.... The galvonic isolation on or off didn't seem to make a difference.

[wgscott]

It does make sense that if such a device does work, the effect would be most demonstrable on a noisy DAC.

 

What surprised me (to the small extent that anything does anymore) is that, despite all the publicity to the contrary, the Schitt Modi 2 seems to have some serious fundamental design flaw.

[esldude]

57 minutes ago, wgscott said:

It does make sense that if such a device does work, the effect would be most demonstrable on a noisy DAC.

 

What surprised me (to the small extent that anything does anymore) is that, despite all the publicity to the contrary, the Schitt Modi 2 seems to have some serious fundamental design flaw.

 

Yes it it does seem that way.  Why is a good question?  The designer would seem capable of making something not so thrown off by the USB connection.  Plenty of others do it without costing much money. 

[wgscott]

24 minutes ago, esldude said:

 

Yes it it does seem that way.  Why is a good question?  

 

So they can sell you this:  http://www.schiit.com/products/wyrd

[plissken]

9 minutes ago, wgscott said:

 

So they can sell you this:  http://www.schiit.com/products/wyrd

 

If the wryd solves the issues seen then shame on Schitt for not implementing it in DAC.

[internethandle]

4 minutes ago, wgscott said:

 

So they can sell you this:  http://www.schiit.com/products/wyrd

 

That seems like an odd conclusion given that 

 

a) Schiit obviously would not agree their product measures poorly (or have an explanation for why it measures poorly with Amir's equipment), and so it follows they then would be unlikely to offer a product to fix a problem they don't believe or want people to believe exists.

 

b) Schiit claims nothing about actual improvements to sound via the Wyrd, or at least objectively believe it shouldn't be possible. It says so right on the product page. They do advertise that objectively it measures less noisily than a motherboard USB port. 

[plissken]

39 minutes ago, internethandle said:

 

That seems like an odd conclusion given that 

 

a) Schiit obviously would not agree their product measures poorly (or have an explanation for why it measures poorly with Amir's equipment), and so it follows they then would be unlikely to offer a product to fix a problem they don't believe or want people to believe exists.

 

b) Schiit claims nothing about actual improvements to sound via the Wyrd, or at least objectively believe it shouldn't be possible. It says so right on the product page. They do advertise that objectively it measures less noisily than a motherboard USB port. 

 

c) They don't give a schitt to optimize the USB buss on their DAC's and therefore don't believe what Amir shows with their products and absent other products really matters.

[esldude]

1 hour ago, internethandle said:

 

That seems like an odd conclusion given that 

 

a) Schiit obviously would not agree their product measures poorly (or have an explanation for why it measures poorly with Amir's equipment), and so it follows they then would be unlikely to offer a product to fix a problem they don't believe or want people to believe exists.

 

b) Schiit claims nothing about actual improvements to sound via the Wyrd, or at least objectively believe it shouldn't be possible. It says so right on the product page. They do advertise that objectively it measures less noisily than a motherboard USB port. 

Don't you find it interesting that a $79 ADC/DAC with microphone inputs to boot, does not have this problem connected via USB?  Maybe Schiit should buy one and open it up to see how they managed that.

[jabbr]

Interesting ... this is an example of reduction in close-in phase noise pretty much exactly as has been discussed on a few threads.

[Speed Racer]

On 8/2/2017 at 8:03 PM, esldude said:

Don't you find it interesting that a $79 ADC/DAC with microphone inputs to boot, does not have this problem connected via USB?  Maybe Schiit should buy one and open it up to see how they managed that.

 

I not going to blindly believe Amir's results. When someone else duplicates the results, I will start giving them some credence. 

[Speedskater]

45 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

 

I not going to blindly believe Amir's results. When someone else duplicates the results, I will start giving them some credence. 

So does that mean that you don't believe that the Iso Regen cleans up the Schiit's measurement?

[Speed Racer]

9 minutes ago, Speedskater said:

So does that mean that you don't believe that the Iso Regen cleans up the Schiit's measurement?

 

I am pretty sure my sentence is clear. 

[esldude]

53 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

 

I not going to blindly believe Amir's results. When someone else duplicates the results, I will start giving them some credence. 

Replication is good. 

 

OTOH, no I don't think Amir is in some big conspiracy to post false results.  As already asked by Speedskater Amir shows the ISO Regen cleaning up the Schiit Modi 2.  So you think that is false or misguided or improperly done measurements?  We know you are gored by any hint of negativity for Schiit.  That is okay, people own gear they like obviously.  The fact the inexpensive Modi 2 is not well isolated from noise on the USB doesn't invalidate your choice of the Yggrasil for a DAC.

[plissken]

27 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

 

I am pretty sure my sentence is clear. 

 

I think it would be in UpTones interest to hire a 3rd party firm with an AP or other like analyzer and send a Modi 2 and ISO Regen and if the results are reproduced post them on their website. 

 

Not sure if it's cool to call out other manufacturers in this industry.

[Speed Racer]

Amir's results could show the Modi was the quietist DAC under $100 and I wouldn't trust them....

[Speedskater]

1 hour ago, Speed Racer said:

 

I am pretty sure my sentence is clear. 

Not to me.

 

[esldude]

39 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

Amir's results could show the Modi was the quietist DAC under $100 and I wouldn't trust them....

Why?

[internethandle]

Well you could reverse that question and ask why one SHOULD trust Amir. Isn't one of the functions of objectivism espousing the idea that one prove that something is true before asking that it be disproven? I could be totally mistaken, but I haven't seen any credentials from him other than retired tech executive with apparently a lot of cash to burn and (purportedly) an Audio Precision Analyzer. Other than that there's a paucity of information about who he is/might represent, what exact equipment and conditions he tests with/in, etc.

 

It's also bizarre that we're even having this conversation, given that the conclusion Amir reached with his output-only measurements of the ISO Regen's effect on various DAC's is that ISO Regen provides no additional benefit. That he found one solitary DAC where it had a measurable effect is nice, but I severely doubt Uptone is going to want to market their device as only measurably effective on Schiit Modi 2's, not that they'd necessarily need to (nor would Schiit likely let them). It's equally bizarre to me that a group of audio objectivists have concluded there are problems with products that tend to attract objectivists (if I recall correctly, Amir has also found fault with a Bifrost) due to their low prices/irreverent marketing and poo-pooing of audiophile "voodoo."  I can imagine Schiit objectivist acolytes demanding in turn that Amir and co. prove that such aberrations are even audible.

 

In terms of Schiit's response/why their DAC might be found to be behaving this way, I can only guess, but if I had to conjecture I'd say it would probably resemble something in Jason Stoddard's "Schiit Happened" chapter where he explicates measurements in general and specifically how Schiit employs them in designing and testing their own product, linked below:

 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/schiit-happened-the-story-of-the-worlds-most-improbable-start-up.701900/page-467#post_11763661

 

Still, for all my apologism, I do find it a little suspect, and wonder if the problems that Schiit was finding with customers having dropouts etc. with their USB implementations in their various DAC's (which was one of the primary reasons they developed the Wyrd, by their own account) has more to do with their USB receiving designs' vulnerabilities to USB port noise than with the noisy ports themselves. Regardless, with Gen 5 USB/Eitr it seems like they've at least solved that issue for most of their DAC's, but noticeably not for Modi, at least internally to the DAC and not yet.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Speed Racer]

57 minutes ago, Speedskater said:

Not to me.

 

 

I don't trust Amir's results regardless of how negative or favorable they are...regardless of the product tested. 

 

Is is that clear enough?

[pkane2001]

7 minutes ago, internethandle said:

Well you could reverse that question and ask why one SHOULD trust Amir. Isn't one of the functions of objectivism espousing the idea that one prove that something is true before asking that it be disproven? I could be totally mistaken, but I haven't seen any credentials from him other than retired tech executive with apparently a lot of cash to burn and (purportedly) an Audio Precision Analyzer. Other than that there's a paucity of information about who he is/might represent, what exact equipment and conditions he tests with/in, etc.

 

The power of objectivism is not in placing trust in someone based on credentials. The power is that the measurements can be repeated by any number of other parties (with or without credentials), in order to prove or disprove the original finding. 

 

If you don't trust Amir, wait for others to publish similar measurements. Or do your own. Which is why, I think, the manufacturer should publish their own measurements if they disagree with Amir's findings or his methods. Claiming that he's biased is not the way to disprove measurements, as all that does is accuse him of faking results without evidence.

[esldude]

13 minutes ago, internethandle said:

Well you could reverse that question and ask why one SHOULD trust Amir. Isn't one of the functions of objectivism espousing the idea that one prove that something is true before asking that it be disproven? I could be totally mistaken, but I haven't seen any credentials from him other than retired tech executive with apparently a lot of cash to burn and (purportedly) an Audio Precision Analyzer. Other than that there's a paucity of information about who he is/might represent, what exact equipment and conditions he tests with/in, etc.

 

It's also bizarre that we're even having this conversation, given that the conclusion Amir reached with his output-only measurements of the ISO Regen's effect on various DAC's is that ISO Regen provides no additional benefit. That he found one solitary DAC where it had a measurable effect is nice, but I severely doubt Uptone is going to want to market their device as only measurably effective on Schiit Modi 2's, not that they'd necessarily need to (nor would Schiit likely let them). It's equally bizarre to me that a group of audio objectivists have concluded there are problems with products that tend to attract objectivists (if I recall correctly, Amir has also found fault with a Bifrost) due to their low prices/irreverent marketing and poo-pooing of audiophile "voodoo."  I can imagine Schiit objectivist acolytes demanding in turn that Amir and co. prove that such aberrations are even audible.

 

In terms of Schiit's response/why their DAC might be found to be behaving this way, I can only guess, but if I had to conjecture I'd say it would probably resemble something in Jason Stoddard's "Schiit Happened" chapter where he explicates measurements in general and specifically how Schiit employs them in designing and testing their own product, linked below:

 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/schiit-happened-the-story-of-the-worlds-most-improbable-start-up.701900/page-467#post_11763661

 

Still, for all my apologism, I do find it a little suspect, and wonder if the problems that Schiit was finding with customers having dropouts etc. with their USB implementations in their various DAC's (which was one of the primary reasons they developed the Wyrd, by their own account) has more to do with their USB receiving designs' vulnerabilities to USB port noise than with the noisy ports themselves. Regardless, with Gen 5 USB/Eitr it seems like they've at least solved that issue for most of their DAC's, but noticeably not for Modi, at least internally to the DAC and not yet.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Amir actually posted some of his credentials.  For one thing he has an EE degree.  So he shouldn't be completely clueless. He recently posted some of his background which you can read here:

 

http://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/uptone-iso-regen-review-and-measurements.1829/page-7#post-46436

 

Some of his measures of other gear fit alongside those done elsewhere.  Some of the gear he measures turns out good, some not, and lots in between.  I see nothing suspicious in that.

 

I am no EE, but I have measured several pieces of gear getting virtually identical results to those I see from JA at Stereophile or Archimago or on Soundstage.net reviews.  Makes me trust my own measures if I get something which is especially good or bad versus expectations.  That may not convince anyone else if I put up such results without replication elsewhere.  I have two pieces of gear that Amir has used and shown some measures for.  They are like a 98% match for my own results with the caveat he has an AP and I don't just using a quieter and cleaner than average recording ADC.  So I am not suspicious his results are rigged, or in general highly misguided. 

 

One thing I agree with him on is the output of gear is what matters.  If the output hasn't changed in some way then it didn't sound different. 

[internethandle]

Yes I suppose that's part of the issue - there's so few out there doing any sort of third-party measuring of audiophile gear that when one person pops up a large (maybe undue) amount of heed is given to their conclusions, which would be helped if there were more out there doing the same to the same equipment. It's going to be pretty hard to find a lot of people with an AP, although the units Jason himself mentions in the Schiit Happened chapter I linked above I suppose could be a starting point.  (edit: QuantAsylum is the manufacturer of said units)

 

And yes, I've always found Stereophile's measurements section partially so illuminating because they include a manufacturer comment/response. 

[Superdad]

1 hour ago, esldude said:

Amir actually posted some of his credentials.  For one thing he has an EE degree.  So he shouldn't be completely clueless.

 

Except when he demonstrates that he is when it comes to measuring devices with power supplies.  He just posted a big "Whoa, stop the presses" report claiming the ISO REGEN adds 60Hz harmonics to its output:

http://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/uptone-iso-regen-review-and-measurements.1829/page-6#post-46377

 

But it is completely obvious that what he is measuring are the byproducts of the leakage current loop being formed by the interaction of leakage currents between the supplied Mean Well SMPS and the SMPS of his Audio Precision analyzer!

 

Yes, we all know that SMPS have higher leakage currents due to the required 'Y' caps on their outputs.  But it takes two supplies to form an AC leakage loop, and if both supplies are SMPS then the results will be as seen.  Of course the preamps that most people will run their DACs into don't have an SMPS.  Since his AP test gear does it is obvious that his set up is the cause.

For proof, look no further than his own graph showing that with his linear bench supply the leakage spurie are decreased.  

Yet Amir erroneously concludes that the ISO REGEN is polluting the 5VBUS line!

 

This is not even the first time Amir has made this error.  He did so with the microRendu powered by the iFi iPower.

 

There are a few simple tests he could do to more clearly show this, but given his "credentials"--and the tremendous nastiness coming at us from his forum--I have zero desire to guide him.