Objective proof the UpTone Regen ISO can improve a DAC's output(*)

[wwaldmanfan]

3 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I honestly don't even know what he said that was political. I didn't read that into anything he said. Thus, I can't be sympathetic to whatever cause it was, if I don't know what it was.

Pease give me examples.

 

Something to the effect of blaming The President for the ongoing division, hatred, and racism, in the world, as well as America.

[The Computer Audiophile]

Hi @Dicky - I just went back and saw he mentioned the US President. I stay out of politics here as much as possible. My error.

 

His statement was factually correct until earlier today wasn't it? 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Just now, wwaldmanfan said:

 

Something to the effect of blaming The President for the ongoing division, hatred, and racism, in the world, as well as America.

 

Just saw that. My fault. Although I didn't read it as blame. Anyway, I'll stay out of this one.

[plissken]

5 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Please give me examples.

 

Amir has tested a handful of DAC's, most ~$100 and one at $2000. I created a thread that backs UpTone claims of an improvement by Amir.

 

BUT 

 

You say he's biased because Digital Madrona sells Berkeley DAC's, but yet he is now  a proponent of a $79 DAC. Amir doesn't take any paid sponsors or other advertising. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 minute ago, plissken said:

 

Amir has tested a handful of DAC's, most ~$100 and one at $2000. I created a thread that backs UpTone claims of an improvement by Amir.

 

BUT 

 

You say he's biased because Digital Madrona sells Berkeley DAC's, but yet he is now  a proponent of a $79 DAC. Amir doesn't take any paid sponsors or other advertising. 

 

Hi plissken - Aren't we talking about the fact that I was called bias? I believe Amir is bias, but where's the evidence that I am bias in this specific thread?

[plissken]

6 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

Hi plissken - Aren't we talking about the fact that I was called bias? I believe Amir is bias, but where's the evidence that I am bias in this specific thread?

 

I'll have to look but didn't you say Amir is out to get UpTone and ask where measurements of the Berkeley DAC's D.M. sells are? If not apologies. 

 

Anyways this thread is way off topic. I'm not keen to entertain anything other than a bias controlled evaluation by Alex of his own product on a properly built ~$500 DAC. Which they abound. 

 

And I'm sure Alex knows what it means to his business if he participates and fails. 

[Superdad]

59 minutes ago, Dicky said:

What his political bent has to do with audio, power supplies and galvanic isolation is a mystery to me. It's not why I'm here. But apparently Uptone has made a determination that disparaging and alienating half of its potential customer base is a sound business model. 

 

Well my comment--about a divided and divisive nation, and a plea for more civility here--was not an expression of my personal political leanings.  

Maybe some of you don't watch the news, but it has gotten pretty ugly out there.  There are over 900 active hate-groups in the USA, and just this weekend something pretty horrific took place.  Both Republican and Democratic lawmakers called out Trump for not specifically condemning the White Nationalist and Nazi hate groups involved (and those groups reveled in the fact). This really is not a partisan issue.  It is one of human decency.  

 

I am open to most all viewpoints--and I have plenty of Republican friends.  But violent racism is something else entirely, and while I doubt there are many audiophiles in that camp, I'll gladly pass on business from any of those.

[The Computer Audiophile]

Just now, plissken said:

 

I'll have to look but didn't you say Amir is out to get UpTone and ask where measurements of the Berkeley DAC's D.M. sells are?

 

I can't be bias because I claim someone else is bias. 

 

My thoughts about Amir not publishing measurements of the stuff he sells, are related to the fact that his motives aren't altruism and he does show a bias against products he doesn't sell. If, he tested all the equipment he sells and wrote derogatory comments about the components that didn't muster up to the $79 DAC, then I'd start to think otherwise about him. 

 

His bias really shows in his subjective assessment of products, word selection, and the fact that he doesn't put measurements that are counter to this bias in good light. 

 

But again, I'm looking for facts that show I am bias. 

[tmtomh]

20 hours ago, Digital Assassin said:

Amir has massive personality disorders. He also has a unmanageable burning jealousy and vindictiveness against successful, smart entrepreneurs, who bring excellent products to market at very fair prices. Because as an "engineer" he has never been able to ever produce a commercially viable audio product.

 

No wonder, he knows nothing about audio. He did not even have a music collection until 2 years ago, if that.

 

I rest my case.

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 minutes ago, tmtomh said:

 

I rest my case.

What case?

[k-man]

Anyone just read ASR's measurements and review of SOtM SMS-200? Here's an interesting bit for those who are on Alex's case by selling the IsoRegen with the Meanwell supply. Quote from the site:

 

"While there is still some mains contributions, the MeanWell is the best of the switchmode power supplies here! It has a grounded AC mains connection which allows the output high frequency shunt to go to that pin, rather than to hot/neutral. That reduces the amount of mains leakage contribution. And for $12, it is a bargain compared to the iFi."

 

 

[esldude]

39 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

Well my comment--about a divided and divisive nation, and a plea for more civility here--was not an expression of my personal political leanings.  

Maybe some of you don't watch the news, but it has gotten pretty ugly out there.  There are over 900 active hate-groups in the USA, and just this weekend something pretty horrific took place.  Both Republican and Democratic lawmakers called out Trump for not specifically condemning the White Nationalist and Nazi hate groups involved (and those groups reveled in the fact). This really is not a partisan issue.  It is one of human decency.  

 

I am open to most all viewpoints--and I have plenty of Republican friends.  But violent racism is something else entirely, and while I doubt there are many audiophiles in that camp, I'll gladly pass on business from any of those.

And you could have omitted any mention of the entire business which would have had no effect on the info posted in this thread as it relates to audio. 

[tmtomh]

30 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

What case?

 

My point that talking about someone having a severe personality disorder and being "jealous of professionals who make high quality products at a fair price" is a ridiculous way to to try to prosecute this argument. I have no issue with your point, Chris, that Amir's rhetoric is evidence of his bad faith. I don't necessarily agree, but I do take your point. I just think that's different than the ad hominem fantasies that are being spun in this thread.

[The Computer Audiophile]

8 minutes ago, tmtomh said:

 

My point that talking about someone having a severe personality disorder and being "jealous of professionals who make high quality products at a fair price" is a ridiculous way to to try to prosecute this argument. I have no issue with your point, Chris, that Amir's rhetoric is evidence of his bad faith. I don't necessarily agree, but I do take your point. I just think that's different than the ad hominem fantasies that are being spun in this thread.

 

It wasn't me who said that. What's going on here?

[pkane2001]

50 minutes ago, k-man said:

Anyone just read ASR's measurements and review of SOtM SMS-200? Here's an interesting bit for those who are on Alex's case by selling the IsoRegen with the Meanwell supply. Quote from the site:

 

"While there is still some mains contributions, the MeanWell is the best of the switchmode power supplies here! It has a grounded AC mains connection which allows the output high frequency shunt to go to that pin, rather than to hot/neutral. That reduces the amount of mains leakage contribution. And for $12, it is a bargain compared to the iFi."

 

 

 

It would be an interesting test of ISO-Regen to feed the more noisy output from SOtM SMS-200 powered by iFi switcher through the ISO-R to the DAC. Assuming the galvanic isolation and reclocking work as advertised, we should see decreased noise and distortions at the output of the DAC compared to no ISO-R. 

[esldude]

22 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

It wasn't me who said that. What's going on here?

I noticed you also didn't say that he had no music collection until 2 years ago or less. 

 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 minutes ago, esldude said:

I noticed you also didn't say that he had no music collection until 2 years ago or less. 

 

 

 

Correct. I don't even know the guy. 

[esldude]

2 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

Correct. I don't even know the guy. 

It would seem the Digital assassin doesn't either.  Yet he seems intent on posting ridiculous comments like having no music until 2 years ago.  Only operating out of jealousy etc. etc.  Making generally demeaning comment without foundation or useful information. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

3 minutes ago, esldude said:

It would seem the Digital assassin doesn't either.  Yet he seems intent on posting ridiculous comments like having no music until 2 years ago.  Only operating out of jealousy etc. etc.  Making generally demeaning comment without foundation or useful information. 

Agreed. I would like to remove that comment, but don't want to be seen as removing something of substance when it is brought up etc... I know it sounds strange, but I feel like someone would call me biased for removing it after it was brought up.

[plissken]

1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

I can't be bias because I claim someone else is bias. 

 

My thoughts about Amir not publishing measurements of the stuff he sells, are related to the fact that his motives aren't altruism and he does show a bias against products he doesn't sell. If, he tested all the equipment he sells and wrote derogatory comments about the components that didn't muster up to the $79 DAC, then I'd start to think otherwise about him. 

 

Then if you don't like the fact that he hasn't measured, what I believe is your goto DAC, and post them then HE HAS given you a $79 way to evaluate. 

 

1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

His bias really shows in his subjective assessment of products, word selection, and the fact that he doesn't put measurements that are counter to this bias in good light. 

 

But again, I'm looking for facts that show I am bias. 

 

Where would this subjective assessment of his be? He's got to use words to write up the measured performance. So does Alex on UpTones web site. Amir's command of prose is no worse than any other Audiophile vendor out there. That's bias.

 

Your biased for claiming he has an ulterior motive for not benching some products he sells. It doesn't matter what the Berkelely benches like and that he hasn't done it. Send yours off to a lab with and AP unit. He's benching stuff people are sending him... (hint hint). 

 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 minute ago, plissken said:

 

Then if you don't like the fact that he hasn't measured, what I believe is your goto DAC, and post them then HE HAS given you a $79 way to evaluate. 

 

 

Where would this subjective assessment of his be? He's got to use words to write up the measured performance. So does Alex on UpTones web site. Amir's command of prose is no worse than any other Audiophile vendor out there. That's bias.

 

Your biased for claiming he has an ulterior motive for not benching some products he sells. It doesn't matter what the Berkelely benches like and that he hasn't done it. Send yours off to a lab with and AP unit. He's benching stuff people are sending him... (hint hint). 

 

 

 

I'm not following your first sentence. Perhaps I'm a bit slow.

 

I'm biased for claiming he has an ulterior motive? Huh? Money is the ultimate ulterior motive. He could lose a lot of money by posting measurements of the products he sells and already has readily available. Nobody needs to send him a single thing that he already sells. He is a dealer, he has access. He makes no money on UpTone, iFi, or Sonore products. Thus, he publishes measurements and surrounds them with negative word selection when it isn't required. 

 

I'd love to see him, in the interest of science and consumers, measure all the components he has at his disposal, because he is a dealer of them, and post the results next to products that are $79. He won't do it because he could lose money. He would certainly do it if someone else could lose money.

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

@plissken Take these statements as an example of bias sneaking through. He is supposed to be reporting scientific facts based on measurements. I see a clear bias in these statements.

 

• Like the original Uptone Regen, this too is stuffed in a tiny, commodity hobby project aluminum box:
• Other than trying to save money, I can't figure out why a device like this needs to be stuffed into a small enclosure.
• Anyway, as you see there is not much to the device.
• There is a red switch that allows isolation to be turned on and off. It is the chintzy switch that feels like it is going to break any minute when you touch it.
• As an aside, some of you may know that UpTone cancelled my order of the ISO Regen due not wanting to sell it to me. So I had to resort to a friend of the forum to order it and send it to me. He incurred shipping costs and I will too in sending it back them. Really silly and unprofessional move on their behalf. Note however that none of this has interfered with my judgement of the product.
• If someone has seen any measurements that show the output of the DAC to vary with ISO Regen, I love to see it. For now, I have no choice but to declare it ineffective.
• And Cosby says, "there comes [....] the time where you give the ridiculous a chance. "

 

 

Then, 22 comments into the article and on the seconds page, below the measurements, he says the ISO Regen is actually help full. No mention of this in the main article where most people will read and come to conclusions. If this was your product, would you be OK with this, knowing that people won't even get to the seconds page?

 

Edit: Many people have suggested that his method is like a scientific paper with peer review. Based on the above, I don't believe so.

[plissken]

1 hour ago, k-man said:

Anyone just read ASR's measurements and review of SOtM SMS-200? Here's an interesting bit for those who are on Alex's case by selling the IsoRegen with the Meanwell supply. Quote from the site:

 

"While there is still some mains contributions, the MeanWell is the best of the switchmode power supplies here! It has a grounded AC mains connection which allows the output high frequency shunt to go to that pin, rather than to hot/neutral. That reduces the amount of mains leakage contribution. And for $12, it is a bargain compared to the iFi."

 

 

 

And that showed up in the ISOR and Amir said it's not of audible consequence.  But please don't miss this forest for the trees:

 

The claimed ISOR benefit is superior sonics that aren't measurable but the added noise vs straight up USB bus powered DAC IS measurably worse but of course no audible consequence. 

 

[Don Hills]

55 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

...

I'd love to see him, in the interest of science and consumers, measure all the components he has at his disposal, because he is a dealer of them, and post the results next to products that are $79. He won't do it because he could lose money. He would certainly do it if someone else could lose money.

 

I'd be interested in such measurements as well, but I'm not about to request them because I have no interest in purchasing such products. If you want something tested, request it as he has invited people to do, on multiple occasions.

I disagree that it would hurt his business. The target market for Madrona Digital aren't likely to be interested in a $79 DAC, nor the minutiae that are under discussion here. I suspect that if he did test the Berkeley devices offered by Madrona and found them to have potentially audible flaws, they'd simply replace them in their product line with ones that performed better.

[MikeyFresh]

3 hours ago, Fitzcaraldo215 said:

Evidence?

 

Not for submission to your kangaroo court, however anyone following the turn of events at that time knows exactly what I'm referring to.

 

I was following it, because I was considering a microRendu purchase. Based on smelling a rat and then having confirmation of such via a non-threatened, professional, thoughtful rebuttal by iFi (among others) I went ahead with that purchase anyway. Turns out it might be the best money I've spent in audio in quite a long time, a bargain.

 

So Amir's mistake prone measurements might have completely led me down the wrong path for no good reason if all I did was pay attention to those supposedly unbiased tests. Thankfully I used my judgment, and then my ears to validate the purchase, instead of Amir's measurements.

 

I very likely could overlook that debacle had Amir done the only possible professional ethical thing to do, apologized to both iFi and Sonore for his careless mistakes which may have misled people. He didn't do that, even though it would have been both easy and the obvious right thing. People would have actually gained respect for him and his fledgling website. He blew it.

 

And now this new newsflash: cheap SMPS units exhibit significant leakage that can be measured by an amateur. So what? Meanwell's own product spec sheets detail this, it was never a secret. Want better performance? Don't use a cheap SMPS.

 

Or, if you have an agenda, you rush to start a CA thread distorting the above claiming breaking news about a product connected to the cheap SMPS being faulty. Disingenuous at best, both on the part of ASR and the thread starter here.