ISO REGEN launch thread! (product web page up; photos, etc.)

[scan80269]

56 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

Gosh Sam, go take care of your traumatized wife.  Or go listen to the ISO REGEN's you received.  You are officially off-duty tonight for answering forum questions!  

My wife seems less traumatized than bummed about her brand new Mercedes being wrecked.  I've never heard so many "I'm fine" from her in one day.

 

About to enjoy the Planets at the concert with my son...

 

[austinpop]

6 hours ago, scan80269 said:

I'm going to a symphony concert tonight (they'll play the Planets by Holst), so my ears should be well calibrated afterwards. ?

 

Just calibrated my ears at the symphony too! Rachmaninov and Respighi.

[asdf1000]

13 hours ago, JohnSwenson said:

 

OK so that is the mechanism, but what do different clocks have to do with sound quality?

 

 

Wow, epic reply John. Much appreciated

[R1200CL]

@JohnSwenson

What are the benefit (if any) using i2s vs USB ?

 

(except less DAC's support i2s)

[Daudio]

On 5/20/2017 at 4:43 PM, JohnSwenson said:

The upstream side is exactly the same in both adaptive vs asynchronous. The difference is in how many samples are put in each packet.

 

John,

 

Thanks for your perspective, and the additional detail. I don't think our descriptions are incompatable, just different views of the elephant 

 

I look forward to the day your new lab is setup and functioning, and you start to amaze us with your findings !

 

 

P.S. When Alex next has a few moments, it would be nice to carve off these OT USB posts to a new thread. Perhaps to continue the look into the innards of USB...

 

 

[JohnSwenson]

5 hours ago, R1200CL said:

@JohnSwenson

What are the benefit (if any) using i2s vs USB ?

 

(except less DAC's support i2s)

The way i2S into a DAC is frequently done, the clocking comes directly from the source. The I2S interface includes a clock that goes directly into the DAC chip. Thus the goodness of the clock in the DAC is completely irrelevant. The goodness of the clock in the source is all important.

 

Now if the DAC has a lousy clock and the source of the I2S has a really good clock, feeding I2S into the DAC could very well sound much better. On the other hand if the DAC has a really good clock I2S is not fantastic, it could make things worse.

 

There are so many things that come into play with this that it is impossible to make any general statements. Every system is going to be different.

 

John S.

[tboooe]

Happy Day!!!!  Today is IsoRegen delivery day!!  Gotta get my work done so when USPS comes I can start playing!

[R1200CL]

@JohnSwenson

 

I'm trying to figure out something. You may read between the lines ?

 

Assuming the ISO REGEN has the LPS-1 in use. 

 

Will the the output of the ISO REGEN in theory be equal compared to what ever is in front of it ?

It may not matter if it's a computer or any "similar devices" ?

 

If the input matters, would as an example, the clocking of the device in front of the ISO REGEN be crucial ? (Asume we use USPCB, so cabling is not part of the question). 

 

Now here is something very interesting, and for sure should be easy to answer:

What should I expect, if anything, if a use two ISO REGEN in series. (With two LPS-1). 

 

I do understand or suppose that the device after the ISO REGEN also matters, but for simplification, we do not have to address that now, as I think this is more related to listening impressions. 

[Speed Racer]

I am not John but I some thoughts on this for you.

 

The ISO Regen, when using the LPS-1 and USPCB, passes on nothing that is in front of it to what is behind it except the data. That is the entire point of the ISO Regen. Ground, power, and USB packet "issues" are all eliminated. You get full isolation. The USB data line and +5vbus power come from the LPS-1. The data is passed on in regenerated USB packets. Based on the scope images presented in an earlier post, those USB packets should be the best the DDC or DAC have ever received.

 

Because of this, I cannot see how 2 or more ISO Regen units in series would offer any benefit other than sending Alex's kids to better schools.

[R1200CL]

Well if that is the true, that it does not matter what is in front of the ISO REGEN, that will impact people's decisions a lot I think. And possible that school as wel ?

 

Anyway your answer make sence, but I don't mind some official confirmation (based on the technicalities). 

 

"Then there are two options".

The sound of USB REGEN vs. the sonic of everything else that outputs an USB stream.

 

Maybe we're close to a no-brainer ? 

 

Then I just hope for the ultimate DCC.

An Uptone Audio USB to AES/EBU converter. 

 

 

[Solstice380]

5 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

Well if that is the true, that it does not matter what is in front of the ISO REGEN

 

That has been stated by the designer and the proprietor many times here, already!

[R1200CL]

2 minutes ago, Solstice380 said:

 

That has been stated by the designer and the proprietor many times here, already!

 

Then I'm happy i'm ordered one, and that I actually also can move my LPS-1 from my MicroRendu to the ISO REGEN without any impact at all.  No need for a second LPS-1.

 

You can even use a Pi as an endpoint. Noe need of expensive Korean products or similar. 

 

It will of cause be interesting to to read all kind of listings impressions of various products and combinations the next few months.

 

But those impressions may as well be how your DAC or USB/SPDIF converter response to a supposed perfect signal. Not to mention how your power wiring is done. 

 

 

 

[Superdad]

3 hours ago, Solstice380 said:

That has been stated by the designer and the proprietor many times here, already!

 

To be more fair, I am sure that all we ever said was that upstream changes will matter less.  EVERY USB device has a PHY processor at its input (even if it is integrated into its hub chip or protocol engine--such as XMOS), and will thus be susceptible to some extent to upstream signal integrity.  So while the ISO REGEN outputs great SI, variations at its input can still have a effect (e.g. you will still hear some differences between USB cables)

The galvanic isolation added by the ISO REGEN takes care of other problems (no time to write about that this morning).

 

--Alex C.

[pl_svn]

can't believe my ISO Regen too was delivered a few minutes ago: thank you so much Alex 

 

I immediately replaced "amber" with ISO (Aries > ISO Regen > Audiophilleo SE > 2Qute)

not paying close attention (I'm busy setting up fighting with a new router ) but difference is clearly there. and it's a very good one

 

more later

(back to my old router, now, just to post this )

[greenleo]

48 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

To be more fair, I am sure that all we ever said was that upstream changes will matter less.  EVERY USB device has a PHY processor at its input (even if it is integrated into its hub chip or protocol engine--such as XMOS), and will thus be susceptible to some extent to upstream signal integrity.  So while the ISO REGEN outputs great SI, variations at its input can still have a effect (e.g. you will still hear some differences between USB cables)

The galvanic isolation added by the ISO REGEN takes care of other problems (no time to write about that this morning).

 

--Alex C.

Does cascading IsoRegen help?

[Jud]

20 minutes ago, greenleo said:

Does cascading IsoRegen help?

 

I cascaded the original Regens (green and amber) and liked that, but I only did it because Alex offered a large discount on the amber to those who had already purchased the green, so it was very little additional expense to have two.

 

I can also say one ISO is a lot better than the cascaded originals.

 

So you might get some additional benefit from better SI (though you wouldn't get more isolation), though I don't know how much, due to how good a single ISO is already.  Only you can decide whether that would be worthwhile to you at the price.

[ElviaCaprice]

The real question is, does a passive GI better an active one like the ISO?  Or would a combination of passive and active be better yet?  ex. uRendu/ISO

Would the ISO Regen be more beneficial if tied into a master clock?  ex. SOTM sclk EX

Is it better to have superior clocking after a GI?  Passive?  Active?  Combination?

Does reclocking help preceding an active GI such as the ISO?

[Middy]

Nooooo the wife went out so they just left a card.....Just have to wait

[Superdad]

21 minutes ago, ElviaCaprice said:

The real question is, does a passive GI better an active one like the ISO?  Or would a combination of passive and active be better yet?  ex. uRendu/ISO

Would the ISO Regen be more beneficial if tied into a master clock?  ex. SOTM sclk EX

Is it better to have superior clocking after a GI?  Passive?  Active?  Combination?

Does reclocking help preceding an active GI such as the ISO?

 

That's quite the word salad there!   But I'll reply to a couple of those vegetables anyway.

 

a) There is no such thing as "passive" galvanic isolation for USB data.

 

b) The Crystek CCHD-575 has the lowest phase-noise of any affordable (i.e. under $500) production clock. There are limits to the beneficial effect of low jitter clocks for processor clocking (as opposed to audio master clocking), and while upstream clocks may put a "fingerprint" on the data, it is hard to rationalize having the USB clock be of vastly lower phase-noise than the DAC's clocks.

 

[austinpop]

9 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

That's quite the word salad there!   But I'll reply to a couple of those vegetables anyway.

 

a) There is no such thing as "passive" galvanic isolation for USB data.

 

b) The Crystek CCHD-575 has the lowest phase-noise of any affordable (i.e. under $500) production clock. There are limits to the beneficial effect of low jitter clocks for processor clocking (as opposed to audio master clocking), and while upstream clocks may put a "fingerprint" on the data, it is hard to rationalize having the USB clock be of vastly lower phase-noise than the DAC's clocks.

 

 

Alex, I kinda lost the context of this whole line of inquiry here. 

 

Does the question boil down to whether adding a 2nd ISO-Regen in series provide any additional SQ benefit? Perhaps with only one of them (the one furthest upstream?) set to isolate?

 

Intriguing thought, but I may be completely in the weeds!

[R1200CL]

On 20.5.2017 at 10:43 PM, JohnSwenson said:

This is why the clock used for generating the USB signal has anything to do with sound quality. At this point in time nobody has generated a receiver circuit that completely ignores the fingerprint from the USB stream. So every DAC is going to be sensitive to some degree or another to the clock used to generate the USB stream. Different implementations vary greatly as to how much they let through, so the relevance of low phase noise in the USB clock is going to vary, for some it is going to make a big difference and for some it will not matter as much.

 

OK, based on this I understand now that actually conclusion earlier today was a  bit wrong misleading by some other true believers ?

 

So how I now understand this is that avoid using a PC upfront the ISO REGEN, as one have to assume the computer has the worst clock. 

 

A good endpoint with a propper clock is crusial upfront the ISO REGEN.  So since some of John's creations also contains endpoints of "various quality", I think i may have to purchase something from this paranoid guy that just closed his thread. ?

 

 

[tboooe]

8 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

 

OK, based on this I understand now that actually conclusion earlier today was a  bit wrong misleading by some other true believers ?

 

So how I now understand this is that avoid using a PC upfront the ISO REGEN, as one have to assume the computer has the worst clock. 

 

A good endpoint with a propper clock is crusial upfront the ISO REGEN.  So since some of John's creations also contains endpoints of "various quality", I think i may have to purchase something from this paranoid guy that just closed his thread. ?

 

 

My personal findings support this conclusion.  I currently use a cheap $100 low powered PC as an NAA in my system.  The USB out from this PC goes into the IsoRegen.  I was able to try a microrendu in place of my PC (prior to having the IsoRegen) and it did sound better.  That being said, I dont know if I would still hear the improvement now that I have the IsoRegen in the chain.  Unfortunately there is only 1 way to find out!  

 

Hopefully we will start hearing feedback from people with the microrendu or sms200 in their system as well as the IsoRegen.

[Superdad]

No offense meant to anyone here.  We love the curiosity and interest in pushing the boundaries of what is possible.  But I would really prefer that the fervency of this discussion simmer down a bit until a few hundred more users get their ISO REGENs and experience it as the singular product is was designed to be.  All else is is distracting (at least to me) and I am sure rather confusing to others that come here wanting to learn about the product.  It works and sounds great all on its own--and the very first people receiving them are discovering and reporting over in the Listening Impressions thread.

 

Thanks very much,

--Alex C.

[Superdad]

3 hours ago, R1200CL said:

I think i may have to purchase something from this paranoid guy that just closed his thread.

 

Hi Andreas:

Please try to consider the immense pressure that both UpTone and Sonore are under.  Not seen is all the daily work (I have a mountain of it!) required to produce and deliver products, to move new products forward, to support the existing and prospective users (my e-mail box would make your hair stand on end), and to deal with questions and speculation on the forums.

Jesus and I may have different styles in how we handle these things--and how we handle the forums (I'll delete provocative or wildly off-topic posts)--but the reality for our separate companies is similar.

Lastly, despite John engineering products for both of us, our projects are separate as are our plan for the future!

 

Thanks,

--Alex C.

[austinpop]

9 minutes ago, Superdad said:

Jesus and I may have different styles in how we handle these things

 

You are a true master of understatement! 

 

Look - every manufacturer will do what they choose to do. I can't think of a better template and model for a good balance than Alex and John. Others - not so much.

 

We - as customers - have only one way to really motivate their behavior - with our pocketbooks. Reward the vendors you deem worthy with your business, and for those who fall short - take your business elsewhere. 

 

Bitching and moaning on the forums will not change their inherent nature or behavior.