ISO REGEN launch thread! (product web page up; photos, etc.)

[R1200CL]

40 minutes ago, Elberoth said:

Alex,

 

When do you expect to ship the last ISO regens from the initial batch of 250 ? (I bought it the very first morning you sent the link)

 

That has been answerd already. Next week he indicated. Search this thread. 

 

Edit:

It was just a few post back. 

 

[Superdad]

3 hours ago, R1200CL said:

 

That has been answerd already. Next week he indicated.

 

Actually, what I said was that more boards would be arriving June 1st (now looks more like Friday the 2nd), and then we would begin test, assembly, and shipment--the following week of June 5th (though yeah, I'll probably work the weekend testing--my new Lecroy USB protocol analyzer is really neat, but each board takes about 2 minutes to certify).

 

Really sorry for the delay, though I think my e-mail/post of May 15th estimating a 3-week delay (beyond the original May 16-19th plan) is looking quite accurate.  Thanks again for your patience everyone.

 

Beyond catching up with those 135 late-fulfillment orders are another 175 to build and ship--most of those promised for "early-June" as well.  Plus, right now about 75 overall are for ISO REGEN/LPS-1 bundles.

So yes, success, but also a lot of pressure!  (It's not like I have a whole staff of people to help execute all this. And boy am I behind on things like accounting--and oh yeah, paying out those $50 rebates to about 75 of you. ) 

 

At least this batch of 14 JS-2s is about finished (test/burn-in over the weekend for the last 6) and out the door.  For a change we may actually end up with 2-3 left on the shelf for a few days.  

Have a great weekend everyone!

 

--Alex C.

 

[Daudio]

1 hour ago, Superdad said:

For a change we may actually end up with 2-3 left on the shelf for a few days

 

Ha ! Can't forget the standards 

 

P.S. Your comment on the EST was a LOL !

 

Great weekend back at ya

[Speed Racer]

So, is the "moat" is kind of shallow and the isolation is incomplete? At least that is what I get from John's comments. Can Alex or John detail what gets through?

[Superdad]

1 minute ago, Speed Racer said:

So, is the "moat" is kind of shallow and the isolation is incomplete? At least that is what I get from John's comments. Can Alex or John detail what gets through?

 

No, the "moat" is complete.  Full galvanic isolation (put a meter across the shells of the two USB jacks and you will not get a beep). But data, while also isolated, has to cross over. And what John was explaining/hypothesizing is that "stuff" gets "baked" into the data (sorry, its Friday and my fingers are tired of typing).

[Speed Racer]

But the data is digital. If we were talking analog data, I could understand "stuff" going along with it. When the data goes from one side of the isolation chip to the other, the only thing that should make it across is the ones and zeroes, right? What else could go along with it if the isolation is complete?

 

Yes, I understand that we are dealing with digital data being transmitted using an inherently analog medium (voltages on wires). But, the isolation chip is all digital. So how does "stuff" get "baked" into pure digital data in a digital circuit? Isn't the digital data stripped out of the USB packets on the dirty side, transferred through the isolation chip as digital data, then inserted into new USB packets on the clean side?

[Jud]

7 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

So, is the "moat" is kind of shallow and the isolation is incomplete? At least that is what I get from John's comments. Can Alex or John detail what gets through?

 

Not Alex or John and don't know for certain, but what I hypothesize:

 

- The moat is complete (you can see it on the board).  So leakage and ground currents are not getting through.

 

- The Regen (as opposed to the ISO) part of the circuit greatly improves signal integrity (reclocking, and removing any electrical noise generated by jittery signals entering the IR's USB PHY).

 

- "Improves greatly" does not mean "eliminates absolutely and completely," because no reclocking is perfect.  So *maybe* you might be able to tell the difference between a very good and very bad source, maybe not.

 

Anyway, that's my speculation.

[Daudio]

4 minutes ago, Jud said:

The Regen (as opposed to the ISO) part of the circuit greatly improves signal integrity (reclocking, and removing any electrical noise generated by jittery signals entering the IR's USB PHY)

 

I believe you can add (output) Signal Shaping and Impedence Matching to the above.

 

[Daudio]

23 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

What else could go along with ...

So how does "stuff" get "baked" into ...

Isn't the digital data ...

 

Speedy, you've got a lot of questions, and Alex would probably like a little time to eat dinner and talk to the kids before he goes back to work, so here are some places you can go to learn that and more...

 

Original Iso-Regen announcement thread:

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/31013-iso-regen/

 

The beginning of this (launch) thread:

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/31589-iso-regen-launch-thread-product-web-page-up-photos-etc/

 

Don't bother with the 'Iso Regen Listening Impressions' thread until you get one and have a serious listen 

 

I'd also recommend the UpTone Audio web site. There are some nice tasty, but dated, treats in the 'John Swenson speaks' (sp?) section.

 

Enjoy 

 

 

[Speed Racer]

I've read all those threads...

 

I already have an ISO Regen (and LPS-1 and USPCB) and have given it a serious listen.....read my very favorable impressions in the "impressions" thread.

 

I've read the John Swenson posts....

[JohnSwenson]

8 hours ago, greenleo said:

@John

 

I want to check if my understanding of Galvinic Isolation (GI) is correct.

 

1. Say, for a simple system a DAC + an Amp, both AC powered and chassis earthed, there ground (or ground plates) are basically connected through the signal cable.  Hence noises may flow between them.

 

2. If, say, the DAC is powered by battery, it will become floating and there will be no common earth between the two devices.  Hence noises between them may not flow to the other party.

 

3. GI effectively forbids noises flow between interconnecting devices.

 

4. If a system that flows from A to D (say PC to mR to IR to DAC), if B and C are both battery powered, then the noise from the ground plate of each of the devices will be isolated and cannot pass to other devices.

 

I understand IR does more for providing high SI.  I also understand that LPS-1 provides effectively clean DC and takes care of the AC leakage current.  What I really want to know is what GI is for and how it helps in SQ.  Recently I come across with the term "ground loops" and cannot figure out a coherent picture even after reading lots of web pages.  Hence my questions.

 

If John or other members would pm me on these, you're welcome. 

First off, everything I'm saying in this post has been covered in detail in other posts, I'm just not up to finding all of them right now.

 

I'm actually going to cover a bit more than your questions, I'll cover some things from a couple other recent posts.

 

My current thinking on USB interface is that there are at LEAST three things that can degrade the sound coming from a DAC. All of these work by increasing the jitter on the clock feeding the DAC chip(s). This can happen in two different ways: increasing the jitter of the local clock itself, or modifying how the DAC chip receives the clock, which effectively increases the jitter INSIDE the DAC chip. Both of these mechanisms are usually happening in most DACs.

 

This extra jitter gets to the clock and DAC chip through noise on the power and ground plane. Noise on the power plane can somewhat be dealt with by voltage regulators, but you can't do anything about noise on the ground plane except prevent it from happening in the first place.

 

So what is jitter? It is variations in timing of the clock edges. For example if a clock is running at a certain frequency, the time between edges is supposed to be an exact number. It never is EXACT. The time between edges varies a little bit from edge to edge. Sometimes a little more than what it should be and sometimes a little less than it should be. Note this is purely timing, the AMPLITUDE of the signal is not changing, it is just the timing that changes.

 

The audiophile world loves to characterize jitter with one number, such as 1 pico second (ps) of jitter. But that is a way over simplification. In any real system the differences from "perfect" are all over the place, one edge be just a little off, the next might be much larger etc. One of the most important methods to characterize this "difference from perfection" is called phase noise. It is amplitude of the variations vs frequency. For example if the variations from perfection were a sine wave, ie small positive variation, larger variation, even larger, then going back to small positive, then small negative, larger negative, back to small negative etc. This sinusoidal variation in timing would show up as a single vertical line in the phase noise plot.

 

Phase noise of real systems usually consist of random variations due to actual physical processes, these show up as a continuous, somewhat noisy curve, and variations due to specific non-random process, these show up as vertical lines on the plot (called "spurs"). A very common source is power supply bleed through which shows up as lines at 60Hz, 120Hz etc.

 

So now on to those three sources of ground plane noise in USB systems:

1)  PG (Power/Ground) noise generated by the USB receiver itself.

2) leakage loops.

3) clock bleed through from other clocks in the system.

 

#1: USB is a complex protocol, it takes a fair amount of circuitry to process the USB packets and extract the audio data. Every time a transistor in that circuitry switches it generates a little blip of noise on the PG planes. All of these transistors doing their thing generate a significant amount of noise on the planes.

 

On top of this the PHY (that stands for the physical interface) is connected to the USB signal, changes in the "signal Integrity" (SI) of the USB signal cause the PHY to change the amount of PG noise it generates. I have written a LOT about this so I won't go into great detail here.

 

#2. This is a completely different mechanism that is caused by leakage current from power supplies. All AC power supplies have some leakage from the AC line (the 60Hz in US etc) to the DC output of the supply. This current forms a loop, going from AC line, through supply, to interconnects, to another box, to supply of that box, and back to the AC line. This loop has nothing to do with the electronics powered by the supplies, it is purely a property of the supplies. I've gone into this in great detail in other posts.

 

This is very different than traditional "ground loops" which are current loops through the safety grounds of the boxes. The leakage loop has nothing to do with the safety ground. So ways to deal with "ground loops" are frequently  ineffective with leakage loops. I wrote a post a while ago going into detail on the differences between between ground loops and leakage loops.

 

Switching power supplies which traditionally are used with computers usually have considerably high leakage current than other supplies, so the inclusion of computers into audio systems have elevated the importance of leakage loops.

 

In addition DACs are particularly susceptible to leakage loops, the leakage loop usually goes through the ground plane of the DAC PCB, directly increasing the jitter of the DAC clock.

 

Other devices such as pre-amps and power-amps can also be part of leakage loops, but their analog circuitry is less susceptible than DACs.

 

#3. In every digital stream the timing of the edges of the waveform are controlled by some clock. The clock signature of that clock (its phase noise) is directly imprinted on that data stream. When that stream goes through digital circuitry, it causes PG noise that is correlated to the clock signature of the generating clock. Remember that any time a transistor switches it creates a little blip on the PG planes, thus every edge from the data stream causes a little blip. The timing of those blips is exactly the same as the timing of the original clock.  Thus anything receiving that stream is going to be generating noise on its own PG planes that matches the signature from the originating clock.

 

This signature from the originating clock will be layered on top of the clock signature from any local clock. Thus even if a data stream is re-clocked by a local clock, the signature from the originating clock gets layered on top of the signature of the local clock. If a whole bunch of things are done right the intensity of the originating signature can be attenuated, but never eliminated.

 

The ISO REGEN is designed to address each of these three items.

#1, the ISO REGEN contains a hub chip which re-generates the USB stream from the source, the SI is extremely good. The result is that the USB PHY in the DAC does not have to work as hard and thus generates less noise on the PG planes in the DAC. I've written lots on this already.

 

#2, this is what the galvanic isolation is for. Again I have written a lot on this. Some notes on this, GI is necessary for breaking leakage loops, but not sufficient. For example almost all power supplies are galvanically isolated from the AC line, but are still the source of leakage loops.

 

The issue here is frequency. Galvanic isolation is only interested with DC, that the DC resistance is very high. But leakage current is AC, so you can have a circuit that blocks DC but passes low frequency AC (power line frequencies) and still have leakage loops go right through. So just because something says it is galvanically isolated does not mean it blocks leakage loops.

 

The isolation in the ISO REGEN is specifically designed to block leakage loops which go through USB cables.

 

#3, the local clock on the ISO REGEN has VERY low phase noise, but remember that the noise from the clock generating that USB signal going into the ISO REGEN still gets layered on top of the phase noise of the local clock. Now it DOES get attenuated, a lot of work went into designing it such that not very much of the signature from the USB source gets through, but some still does. The result is a very low phase noise USB signal that will provide very low degradation of the local clock in the DAC.

 

The ISO REGEN is designed to significantly attenuate all three mechanisms that cause degradation of sound quality in a DAC.

 

I hope that helps.

 

John S.

 

 

[Daudio]

31 minutes ago, JohnSwenson said:

My current thinking on USB interface

 

Wow, great post John !

 

I'd like to suggest that you move or copy it to a new, pinned thread (Iso-Regen tech notes ?), and work out with Alex so that only the two of you can post to it, so that it doesn't get too big and confused. and hard to find the good stuff. You can add to it when there is something worth adding, or finding previous posts to excerpt.

 

Then you can just point questioning folks to it, and go do something more fun

 

[BigAlMc]

Hi @Superdad& @JohnSwenson

 

Apologies if this has been covered but I've been trying to track both this and the Listening experiences thread and didn't see it. 

 

What's your take on whether the isolation offered by the ISO Regen means that optical isolation is no longer needed or not. Theoretically do the two forms of isolation compliment each other or does the ISO Regen mean the optical isolation is no longer needed or less significant? 

 

By optical I mean a couple FMCs and a short run of Fibre optic cable in an ethernet run. 

 

Many Thanks, 

Alan 

[JohnSwenson]

7 hours ago, BigAlMc said:

Hi @Superdad& @JohnSwenson

 

Apologies if this has been covered but I've been trying to track both this and the Listening experiences thread and didn't see it. 

 

What's your take on whether the isolation offered by the ISO Regen means that optical isolation is no longer needed or not. Theoretically do the two forms of isolation compliment each other or does the ISO Regen mean the optical isolation is no longer needed or less significant? 

 

By optical I mean a couple FMCs and a short run of Fibre optic cable in an ethernet run. 

 

Many Thanks, 

Alan 

Unfortunately the answer is quite complex.

 

Ethernet is already inherently galvanically isolated and will break leakage loops (the low frequency leakage current can't make it through Ethernet transformers). Thus the isolation in the ISO REGEN does not improve the overall isolation situation, as long as the Ethernet to USB device does not generate a new leakage loop. For example a microRendu powered by a LPS-1 does not generate a new leakage loop, but a mac mini (even if powered from a JS-2) does.

 

So the optical LAN does no give any better leakage current isolation than wired Ethernet. Any difference in sound is going to be due to clocking differences. THAT is much harder to analyze by just thinking about it. It depends on the clock generating the Ethernet packets feeding the wire in the first place, the clock in the wired->optical converter, the clock in the optical->wired converter. The power supply and board layout in each of these has a major impact.

 

There are so many variables that it is almost impossible to determine whether a particular configuration with optical is going to sound better than a particular system without optical.

 

My personal opinion is that the optical system is just adding complexity that is probably not necessary. You will probably get better results by getting a very low phase clock on the circuit that generated the wired Ethernet in the first place (computer, switch etc). Of course each of those can be affected by the clock generating the data to THEM.

 

It gets essentially impossible to figure any of this out in advance. A particular optical configuration MIGHT attenuate the clock signature from an upstream clock, or it might make it worse. Impossible to tell without measuring.

 

Unfortunately nobody has any test equipment to measure this. I'm working on designing my own, but this will take quite some time to get that working. So for now it is purely trial and error.

 

John S.

[BigAlMc]

Hi John, 

 

I figured it was perhaps a semi-impossible question to answer with any certainty. Many thanks for taking the time to write such a detailed response. 

 

I'll write another post explaining my experience and why I asked this when I have some more time. But meantime thanks again and keep up the great work. 

 

Regards, 

Alan 

[Daudio]

12 minutes ago, JohnSwenson said:

Ethernet is already inherently galvanically isolated...

 

John, another fine candidate post for the pinned 'John S speaks' (or whatever) thread.

 

[Jud]

John, you'll recall the noise level from the "warble" in my system was reduced when I added a Baaske Ethernet iso transformer.  Perhaps then in at least some (rare, anomalous?) situations, extra isolation beyond what's built in to Ethernet already may help.

[Tone Deaf]

Too much galvanic isolation? 

 

Greatly enjoying the ISO Regen, but thought it might be useful to share this experience with other users (and future users). 

 

Had a few times over the past week, maybe once a day, when my system would simply cut out.  Afterwards, my dac (QB-9) would be in a confused state and no longer play, with the only solution being to power cycle the dac.  After the power cycle, all would be good again.  In my system, I had simply replaced the standard Regen connected directly to my dac with the ISO Regen.  I don’t have the simplest USB chain however.

 

My USB chain:  Mac Mini -> normal Regen (LPS-1) -> Icron Ranger 2201 Lex -> Ethernet -> Icron Ranger Rex (LPS-1) -> ISO Regen (LPS-1) -> QB-9

 

Disabling galvanic isolation on the ISO Regen eliminated the issue. 

 

Since the Icron Ranger provides galvanic isolation inherently through the Ethernet implementation, I wondered if the issue might be related to the Rex being powered via the LPS-1, which also isolates it on the power side.  The Rex had galvanic isolation from the Mini via Ethernet, isolation from the dac via the ISO Regen, and isolation from AC via the LPS-1, and as a result no path to ground?  Eliminating the Rex LPS-1 and powering the Rex directly with the JS-2 also eliminated the cutouts.

 

There was no noticeable difference in the SQ with the ISO Regen isolation defeated or enabled, which would be the hope given the isolation provided by the Icron Ranger.   

 

My takeaway?  With any unusual behavior using the ISO Regen, disable isolation before trying anything else….

[R1200CL]

5 hours ago, Tone Deaf said:

My USB chain:  Mac Mini -> normal Regen (LPS-1) -> Icron Ranger 2201 Lex -> Ethernet -> Icron Ranger Rex (LPS-1) -> ISO Regen (LPS-1) -> QB-9

 

Do you really need the Icron Ranger ?

Would it not be better to simplify  everything and just use 2 USPCB between the Mac and the DAC. (With the ISO Regen in the middle). 

 

Maybe add uptone PS tweak on the Mac ?

 

(I buy the two LPS-1 you don't need then ?)

[Speed Racer]

I can't see a compelling to use both the Icron Ranger LEX/REX and ISO Regen.

 

Well, maybe I can. Does the Icron Ranger take care of the residual clock phase noise "issues" that the ISO Regen can't completely eliminate? The ISO Regen is USB all the way through. But, clearly the Icron setup converts between USB and TCP/IP. Maybe when the Lex unit deconstructs the USB packets and the Rex unit reconstructs the USB packets, whatever clock phase noise is cleaned out. After all, TCP/IP is only going to transmit the digital data. How could it transmit clock phase noise?

 

John Swenson?

[One and a half]

45 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

I can't see a compelling to use both the Icron Ranger LEX/REX and ISO Regen.

 

Well, maybe I can. Does the Icron Ranger take care of the residual clock phase noise "issues" that the ISO Regen can't completely eliminate? The ISO Regen is USB all the way through. But, clearly the Icron setup converts between USB and TCP/IP. Maybe when the Lex unit deconstructs the USB packets and the Rex unit reconstructs the USB packets, whatever clock phase noise is cleaned out. After all, TCP/IP is only going to transmit the digital data. How could it transmit clock phase noise?

 

John Swenson?

The Icron  Ranger  like the 2214 is a point to point USB transmission using CAT5/6 cables to extend a USB wire. 

It is a true extender, so whatever trash you have at the source,  the Ranger will faithfully transmit that trash. 

Conversely if Intona or regen are wired to the lex unit,  the sound will change to whatever product does isolation or USB fixing.

I doubt the Ranger converts to that high baggage TCP/IP since the Rangers are not routable and the object is to create a transmission that looks like USB at the source and the receiver. 

[Tone Deaf]

5 hours ago, R1200CL said:

Do you really need the Icron Ranger ?

 

Didn't add the the Ranger for SQ reasons.  My room layout puts my Mac more than 20 ft from my DAC, so I needed it for the USB extension.  

 

5 hours ago, R1200CL said:

Would it not be better to simplify  everything and just use 2 USPCB between the Mac and the DAC. (With the ISO Regen in the middle). 

 

It wouldn't surprise me that simplification (removing the Icron) might improve the sound.  Though I would like to see someone connect a Mini to a QB-9 with just an ISO Regen and 2 USPCBs.  

 

Interestingly though, before the ISO Regen, I never found the Icron to be a detriment to SQ.  Others have echoed this sentiment.  Quite possibly this was due to the GI that it provided.

 

5 hours ago, R1200CL said:

Maybe add uptone PS tweak on the Mac ?

 

Already have - see signature.

[Tone Deaf]

5 hours ago, Speed Racer said:

I can't see a compelling to use both the Icron Ranger LEX/REX and ISO Regen.

With regards to SQ, I completely agree, but I needed it as a USB extender.  Though pre ISO Regen, it possibly provided some benefit due to the GI, which the ISO Regen now provides.

[R1200CL]

18 minutes ago, Tone Deaf said:

With regards to SQ, I completely agree, but I needed it as a USB extender.  Though pre ISO Regen, it possibly provided some benefit due to the GI, which the ISO Regen now provides.

 

....or use a quality endpoint, though that may not add much. Maybe you even tried ?

[Tone Deaf]

24 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

 

....or use a quality endpoint, though that may not add much. Maybe you even tried ?

I have not.  Yet....