Light Harmonic (LH Labs). Scam? USD$6 million not delivered since 2014

[Superdad]

4 hours ago, bernardperu said:

Yes, they still are. They seem to be answering at forum threads for Geek Wave, Pulse, and Vi Dac at Head-Fi.

 

And yet at their own forums (https://support.lhlabs.com/support/discussions), questions and pleas for help and updates go unanswered --for months to years...  

[Superdad]

4 hours ago, bernardperu said:

 

Yes, they still are. They seem to be answering at forum threads for Geek Wave, Pulse, and Vi Dac at Head-Fi.

 

I just spent 10 minutes looking at all the related active threads I could find on Head-Fi, and did not see anyone from LH Labs replying.  All that is contained in those threads is a far greater  number of any customers with stories to tell.

[Superdad]

Interesting that when asked about plans to exhibit at 2018 audio shows, LH Lab's rep Stuck Limo on Head-Fi replied:

 

CES, CanJam in RMAF. Three shows in Japan and two in Hong Kong. One in Singapore. And one in Bristol. Hopefully showing the Wave, Tesla, and something else LH hopes will excite people. 

No guarantees on any of these, and Larry is still deciding on what best ones to visit. Right now the Asian market is absolutely exploding with headphone and audiophile gear, while the US market seems to be stagnating or shrinking, so obviously that's a consideration. CanJam is definitely being heavily eyed though for the States. CES is being debated.

 

Now, in a former role (as co-founder and  VP Sales & Marketing for Hovland Company, 1999-2009) I did a lot of trade shows.  Mostly CES, but also attended as guest with our overseas distributors in Japan and Germany.

Let's say LH Labs is going to be conservative and send just 3 people to each of these shows.  Consider freight costs, the shows own drayage and exhibit fees, hotels, airfare, meals, entertaining, marketing materials, etc.

I would estimate that if they exhibited at all 9 of the above mentioned shows, they would be spending a total of  between $375,000 to $475,000.

And he mentions they might preview another new product.  It would be an understatement to say that there are a lot of folks waiting on long overdue products who would prefer that LH Labs put those funds and the time into producing and delivering the goods.

 

BTW, I can recall at least one year at Hovland when we cancelled our CES room (even forfeiting our deposits) to stay home and put all hands on deck to get promised amps and preamps out the door.  It is called responsibility to ones' stakeholders. 

[Superdad]

2 hours ago, bernardperu said:

The Hi End audio industry needs new venues to raise money. LH Labs screwed everybody in the industry: manufacturers and consumers. Level of trust is a priceless commodity.

 

Thank you for writing that.  That is exactly how I feel, and is the only reason I chime into this thread. (I did back both the original GeekOut and Pulse campaigns, and received both items. The Pulse came very late of course—and was part of the defect-prone first run.)

 

There was a time a few years ago (before the LH debacle) when we considered crowdfunding. Even then we only would have done it if we had a fully completed/tested design ready to go.  It would be a way to gauge demand, size a first production run, capitalize first run parts procurement, and engage with the base.  The Indiegogo and Kickstarter fees make it an expensive route, but it could have been worthwhile.

 

Yet it is clear that LH Labs (and to a lesser extent Olive) really soured the audio community on crowdfunding, and that is why you see very few firms—established or startup—going that route anymore. 

 

Fortunately for UpTone, our sequence of product development began with designs we could capitalize in a bootstrap fashion, and each success built up the capital for the next, more ambitious and costly project.  And because I keep the company operating costs extremely lean (no magazine ads, no deep dealer/distributor discounts, no expensive trade shows), we are at the point where even a $100K production start would be manageable.  [Of course that amazes me and I am very grateful to the many here who made that possible.]

 

Coming back to your point, I agree that there are likely many other earnest engineers and entrepreneurs in the audio space who could bring worthwhile and desirable products to market if they had a boost from crowdfunding.  Because regular bank loans and vulture capital are certainly not available to any boutique high-end audio startup! (Heck, circa 2003-2006, when we were doing over $1mil./year at Hovland Company, we could not get a $100K loan to cover parts.)

 

So can audio crowdfunding return?  Perhaps if a company presented themselves well on Indiegogo, had some track record, and was truly transparent and sincere.   

Just as you said: Trust is a priceless commodity...

 

—Alex C.

[Superdad]

8 hours ago, bernardperu said:

"The figures this person you quoted are not entirely accurate, as at many of the shows, only one person attends..."

 

These years they must draw straws to decide who has to represent them at hi-fi shows.  Hopefully they give the poor chap an armored vest before they travel.  

[Superdad]

8 hours ago, bernardperu said:

"On a third note, most or all of the exhibits are paid for with non-IGG money, from our other products we sell to generate income."

 

Hmmm... So does that mean they have a giant pile of cash from their Indiegogo campaigns that they don't touch for anything but the products they were pledged for?  If so, then why won't they issue refunds from that fund to all those who are asking?

Sorry, that line does not pass the smell test...

[Superdad]

7 hours ago, One and a half said:

LH Labs offer a Music Server which is currently has no delivery date, oh wait, there it is, after the IGG orders are completed. Is this for real?

 

"Orders to be filled after IGG orders are completed."

 

So did you order a couple of them?  Just $3K apiece. They would be happy to hold your money for a half decade—at least until their doors close for good. 

[Normally I would never be so snarky/cynical about another company. But we are talking about literally millions of dollars they have taken from people for products going undelivered for years!  Does anyone really think they will receive a GeekWave with functional software in this decade?]

[Superdad]

12 minutes ago, LHCommSquad said:

 

No, not according to my information. They're working on the Signature IGG editions right now, but that's a very slow process. Everything at LH is very slow (you all know that). They're waiting for 2 units from Singapore to hit the US office but the mail is slow. There's about 5 they're actively working on right now to ship out from the first 10 Signature IGG editions. 

 

So you are Jarek, self-described as “LH Labs Social Media Guy” right?  Are you any relation/same person as “stucklimo” who others here reference?

 

In any case, how about coming clean about your (semi)professional association with LH Labs?  Are you paid by them? Are you in direct contact with Larry Ho?

 

I think LH Labs/Light Harmonic customers have endured enough years of obfuscation and bullshit about the status of the company, the products, and their money deposited.  Time is up for excuses.

 

Frankly I don’t know how or why the firm continues to function in any manner—at least any legal manner.  I know for a fact that a number of parts suppliers have cut ties to LH.  Perhaps cash continues to flow from dealings into other markets.  Certainly LH is not keeping the doors open and staff paid based on Amazon sales and new direct sales and backers.

 

Sadly it appears that legal action has not yet taken place because no one individual’s product deposit investment is enough to warrant the cost, time, and hassle of taking LH to court.  But at some point...

 

Anyway, I thought think that if you are to be permitted to post on this forum you ought to be required to be more transparent about who you are and your relationship to the firm.  Otherwise you are just jerking people’s chains.

 

—Alex C.

(An early backer of the GeekOut on Kickstarter and Pulse on Indiegogo.)

(A member of the trade who once considered using crowdfunding for a product until LH ruined it for all audio manufacturers.)

[Superdad]

3 minutes ago, LHCommSquad said:

 

It seems we're in a stalemate then. There are no proofs of Sources being sold, and there are no proofs of IGG Sources being delivered yet. Seems like both sides have claims that haven't been proven false or honest yet. 

 

By any chance are you the brother of Sarah Huckabee Sanders? You sound a lot like her. 

[Superdad]

35 minutes ago, LHCommSquad said:

I understand from various sources/chatter (industry and customer based) that you have a particular beef with LH/LH Labs, not based on crowdfunding, but dating back to the Revive vs your competitor product.

 

That is 100% false.  At least a half-dozen other USB hub-chip based “knock-offs” of our original USB REGEN came to market before the Revive did, and we are quite secure with out track record of delivering effective, innovative, and well-functioning products to our clients backed by highly responsive customer support—and our current ISO REGEN incorporates technology well beyond what is in the the Revive.

 

If you have proof of said “sources/chatter,” then I challenge you to publish or link to them.

 

No, my beef with LH stems from these areas::

1) Several months of back and forth trying to get my malfunctioning Geek Pule repaired (it’s a nice sounding DAC for the $250 I paid);

2) Disgust with witnessing LH collect over $5 million from backers while delivering goods to only a fraction of them;

3) Continuously receiving solicitation e-mails (back in the Gavin Fish era) to back numerous additional vaporous products (concepts)—even as the first ones fell further behind schedule.

 

I am by no means trying to start something between my humble firm and LH Labs.  I made these prior posts as mostly as an industry veteran and observer of a sad situation.  There really is no denying that LH Labs (in the end Larry Ho) has conducted itself in an unethical manner—ultimately bordering on fraud and possibly embezzlement. Yet it is your choice as to if you will continue to be complicit in such and to enable it to continue via representation of the status of the operation.

 

BTW, as far as I know, management at this site does not permit an individual to have more than one active member name. So posting both as @LHCommSquad and @stuck limo may be frowned upon by @The Computer Audiophile. But such is not my business.

 

Goodnight.

 

 

[Superdad]

8 hours ago, LHCommSquad said:

3. If you're not trying to start a war, you're certainly doing all the things that set a war in motion. Again, we have no interest in a war or badmouthing you or your company, or defending ourselves from your company's attacks. And I personally have heard great things about your company, including the Revive competitor previously mentioned. 

 

Hi Jarek:

Sadly, the “war” you speak of involves only LH Labs and its thousands of unhappy customers. And based on public postings—at many forums,  on LH Indiegogo campaign pages, and even on LH Labs’ own website forum—no battles have been won by the firm in a long time. I imagine it is pretty challenging to defend the indefensible.  You must have a very strong constitution.

 

I have no motivation to attack any other company.  Lord knows I am busy enough with my own, satisfied with our modest success, and thankful to have happy and appreciative clients.

So why do I sometimes chime in late at night when this thread occasionally flares up?  I looked back at the few times I posted here and I think this post of mine sums it up best:

In that post I wrote mostly about how I think LH may have permanently altered how crowdfunding for audio components is perceived; potentially impacting the ability of worthy future firms to utilize that avenue.

 

So unless I have further insight to share, I’ll leave it to those users directly affected (still waiting years for products that will likely never arrive) to tilt at the windmill of the sad firm that you choose to represent. It’s a bit like a car wreck: tragic but we stare anyway. 

 

[Superdad]

2 hours ago, Jud said:

Now I'm just guessing here, but I'm supposing any monies from the campaigns (anyone ever total the amount raised for all the campaigns where nothing has been provided or even at the stage of a working prototype? - thinking it must be in the millions) ...

 

Since you asked:

Years ago--about the time when LH was running crowd-fleecing campaigns on near half a dozen product concepts while they were already a year late in delivering the simple Pulse DAC--I added up the gross (literally gross) amounts of all their Kickstarter and Indiegogo campaigns.  Came to just over $6 million at the time (though that did include the original GeekOut campaign, which went pretty well).

[Superdad]

Click on the Customer Happiness tab on their Facebook page:

 

 

That gets the understatement-of-the-year award. 

[Superdad]

..

[Superdad]

1 hour ago, NOMBEDES said:

Thinking LH is giving China a bad name..........

 

How is that? Light Harmonic is a USA company.  

And no one company's poor ethics can give a black-eye to an entire nation...

[Superdad]

50 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

 

So that's how the US of A got in the state it is.

haha

 

LH Labs may be quite similar to our government.  Lots of promises followed by a partial shutdown. 

[Superdad]

1 hour ago, Blake said:

Larry no longer has a corporate veil to protect him.  His business entities are dissolved by law.  As such it is as if he never formed a business entity and he is operating his businesses in his individual capacity.  All of his personal assets are at risk and have been for a number of years.

 

Hi Blake:

Can you point us anywhere that shows that the LH corporations have already been dissolved?  As I am sure you know, dissolution is a whole process (sometimes an expensive one), and requires filings regarding disposition/disposal of assets and liabilities.

Thanks.

[Superdad]

1 minute ago, Cecil said:

Will there be a deadline?

 

Given how long the sad saga of the LH debacle has dragged on, the only deadline I can think of is, well, when we are all dead.  

[Superdad]

23 minutes ago, Jud said:

And then speaking of updates and further of delivery dates, I have them for the Geek Wave campaign going back to Kickstarter.  Here's a snippet from a November 2014 update:

 

Perhaps the OP, @bernardperu will consider changing the title of this thread to say 5 years instead of 2.5.  

[Superdad]

35 minutes ago, Jud said:

And then speaking of updates and further of delivery dates, I have them for the Geek Wave campaign going back to Kickstarter.  Here's a snippet from a November 2014 update:

 

Speaking of November 2014, that's about when the writing on the wall began to be indelible.  Here's a post I made at that time:

 

[Superdad]

Does anyone know which physical office locations Light Harmonic/LH Labs still occupies in California?  At their peak I recall they had offices in Roseville, Sacramento, and Rocklin.  I am curious about what is left here in the states.

[Superdad]

1 hour ago, LHCommSquad said:

But I encourage everyone to drive, fly or walk over there to see for themselves the building. 

 

Is that also an invitation for someone to knock on the door, meet an LH associate and receive a short tour?  Since LH long ago stopped publishing photos of any production areas, parts, or goods shipments, there is zero proof that anything at all is going on there or that anybody even works there.

Call that a conspiracy theory if you like, but given the complete lack of credibility that LH has with the audio community I would think that you would be eager to post some pictures to show people that things are still happening. Pretty basic PR strategy.

[Superdad]

24 minutes ago, mansr said:

He's obviously upset about not having received any chicks for free.

 

And yet he clearly is not in Dire Straits the way some of the campaign backers are.

[Superdad]

41 minutes ago, Jud said:

...he has experience in businesses going under.  This would just be one more, and by far not the shortest lived.

 

Any casinos in his past?  I hear those are hard to drive under.  Oh wait... 

[Superdad]

1 hour ago, Jud said:

I think all such speculation is unnecessary, unhelpful, and ultimately useless.  If the interview takes place, submit proposed questions if you wish to do so, and make of the actual questions and answers what you will.

 

To my mind, more important than an interview would be a video or photo walk-around of the LH Lab offices.  To see staff, actual partially assembled products--and to assess the true state of the company operation. If the lights are barely on and nobody is home, then the odds of ever seeing products roll out are very slim.  

[And not to rain on anyone's burgeoning parade, but I think the chances of anyone ever receiving a refund are zero. Even if they are sued 'til the cows come home. The money is either all gone or will be moved out before it can ever be attached by a court.]