A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[austinpop]

This is very interesting I’m sure, but just a gentle reminder this needs to very quickly get back on topic of direct listening impressions.

 

If this is a product you’re making, it would be helpful to start a thread of its own to discuss the details.

[austinpop]

14 minutes ago, sunny_time_99 said:

Hello Austinpop,

 

ok, then pls delete my postings from today, i am going to open an thread for this Topic.

 

regards

 

Sunny

No deletion necessary. Just post a link here to the new thread for people to follow.

 

If/when anyone has actually done direct and/or comparative listening evaluations, by all means they should post them here.

[austinpop]

@Exocer

 

Thanks for your report, Rob! Very glad to read about the improvements you're hearing.

[austinpop]

11 minutes ago, realDHT said:

 

I think we are somewhat off topic in this thread so we can continue discussion if you want in the thread I linked or in the other clock thread that was started by Bassilus.

Thanks from OP!

 

I would strongly suggest that.

[austinpop]

1 hour ago, manueljenkin said:

Thank you very much. I would be interested to know if there is openly available information on how this rough sine wave is converted to square wave, atleast a basic overview of it.

I’m sure this is an interesting discussion, and not intentional on your part, but you’re taking this thread off-topic. See posting guidelines at the top of the page. This thread needs to stay focused on direct listening experience.
 

Please create a separate thread to dig into clock design to your heart’s content. 

[austinpop]

@Nenon That looks amazing! I’m going to be following the progress with great interest.

 

Just for folks to know where to post regarding this... while this project comes to fruition, please discuss over on the main DIY server thread: https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/58164-building-a-diy-music-server/page/

 

Once builds are completed, by all means post your listening impressions and comparisons with other servers here on this thread.

 

[austinpop]

If any of you have experienced the SQ effects of alternative energy sources to the grid, please report your experiences. I opened a separate thread, since I think it may be its own topic. The thread is here:

 

 

[austinpop]

System Update May 2021

 

I figured this was a good time for me to post a system update, since my last post on the topic was almost 6 months ago: 

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/?do=findComment&comment=1092344 

 

Another reason to post is because I can now talk about PGGB, a topic that was confidential until a few weeks ago!

 

One of my goals with buying the Extreme was to get off the HW upgrade hamster wheel, and to a large extent, this has turned out to be the case. Yes, there have been some further accessory purchases, like SR Orange fuses, or Daiza isolation platforms, but I don't count those as major. My topology has held very steady, and continues to look like this.

 

 

 

Dispensing with the Network

 

While the diagram still shows my "baroque" stack of 3 switches, I have honestly stopped focusing on the network, and for max SQ, switch off the network after I hit play. This is the best SQ, every time! While I still need the network when I stream from Qobuz (hence the continued presence of the switch stack), this is now non-critical listening for discovery. So I've stopped focusing on minutiae like the Finisar transceiver du jour. 

 

So what have I been up to in the last 6 months?

 

I know there was concern in some quarters that having purchased an endgame music server like the Extreme, I'd be hanging up my DIY hat. To some extent, that is true, as I was always at best a reluctant DIYer, where DIY means building things myself. But it certainly is not true for my penchant for experimentation, tweaking, and discovery! It's just found other outlets!

 

PGGB

 

One of the reasons for my relative silence has been my participation in the (until recently, confidential) development of PGGB. I won't repeat my posts on this topic in the PGGB thread. See for example: 

• https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/62699-a-toast-to-pggb-a-heady-brew-of-math-and-magic/?do=findComment&comment=1126331
• https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/62699-a-toast-to-pggb-a-heady-brew-of-math-and-magic/?do=findComment&comment=1127759

This came at exactly the right time for me. With my system sounding the best it ever has, it opened the door to this new axis of improvement. We are still discovering the extent to which PGGB improves SQ on other DACs, and the reports on the thread are very encouraging. On the DAVE, as part of my Extreme chain, it has been an absolute game changer. Would I have heard the dramatic improvement I did on my previous chain? Probably, but perhaps not to the same extent? I don't know. As we all know, SQ improvements are a bootstrap process.

 

Focus on Extreme Software

 

One of the less-recognized strengths of the Extreme, but no less important than the hardware IMO, is the extent to which its software is continually improving. I can confidently say that the Extreme I bought last summer is not the same in my system today. Yes, the hardware is mostly the same (except for the new Taiko USB card - see below), but the sound quality is light years ahead due to software enhancements. This is the result of Emile's delivery of improvements in OS tuning, certainly, but even more so, the delivery of the Taiko Audio Server (TAS), and USB driver enhancements. More on USB later, but the SQ improvement wrought by TAS over Roon cannot be overstated. And the fact that these were free upgrades makes it even sweeter!

 

There is a lot of cool tech embedded in TAS. Emile has been very generous (or perhaps wise?!) in involving experimental and DIY-oriented customers like @romaz, @ray-dude, and myself in the early development and alpha and beta testing, and being quite open about the approaches taken. Since this is confidential info, I can't really discuss it, but I will say that working this closely with Emile has only reinforced my conviction that I picked the right music server platform, as his entire approach aligns closely with my own philosophy.

 

USB Improvements Continue, Part 1: the Taiko USB card

 

One exception to the "no new hardware" statement above is that I did purchase the new Taiko USB card. How could I not?! Having been involved and aware of the tech Emile was putting in, it was sure to be a slam dunk, and indeed it has been. My impressions are here in this post: 

 

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/taiko-audio-sgm-extreme-the-crème-de-la-crème.27433/post-713747

 

USB Improvements Continue, Part 2: Bypassing Amanero with the AudioWise SRC-DX bridge

 

One area where we DAVE users have not benefited has been the work the Taiko team has been doing in developing their own Taiko USB device driver. This began during the development of TAS, first paying attention to the buffers and bit depths that optimized the USB controllers in individual DACs. Emile then realized that even further gains were possible by implementing his own device driver to more precisely control the end-to-end latency of the USB controller. Unfortunately, this was only possible and implemented on XMOS2 controllers. Emile had been telling us for a while that the Achilles heel of the Amanero USB chipset, as found in the DAVE, is its excessive latency (over 20x higher than XMOS2). His assertion was that this was hurting transient response. It also explained why DAVE owners were preferring tiny buffer sizes (64/128) with TAS, since there was this existing latency baked into the Amanero controller.

 

All credit to @romaz for finding a way to bypass the Amanero USB controller using the AudioWise SRC-DX USB-dual SPDIF bridge, as he described in this post:

 

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/taiko-audio-sgm-extreme-the-crème-de-la-crème.27433/post-718858

 

As Roy describes, you only have to listen to this bridge for a few seconds to realize how true Emile’s assertion is. Ironic, isn’t it, since DAVE is all about transient accuracy. But what this has taught me is that transient accuracy is actually a collection of things. Coherence, pinpoint soundstage, and accurate timbre are all evident even over Amanero. What you hear with a lower latency interface is leading edges and even more micro-detail. Listen to plucked strings and percussive strikes, and you’ll hear it right away.

 

Whether or not the USB controller in the bridge (ComTrue) can be brought into the pantheon of devices supported by the Taiko ASIO device driver remains to be seen. Even as is, using ComTrue's own ASIO driver, this bridge enhances the SQ of my chain beyond the USB path, and represents yet another advance in my system.

 

BNC cable quality still matters (sigh!)

 

Sadly, what the bridge does open, with a resounding bang, is the Pandora's box of BNC cables I'd managed to wrestle shut just under a year ago! I should have known it would not last. Sigh. Any illusions I had that BNC cable quality would not matter as much in this application (bridge to DAVE), as opposed to my previous application (MScaler to DAVE), were dashed once I started experiments. I tried a collection of BNC cable pairs, of increasing price, and SQ improved at each step:

• VH Audio Pulsar OCC Silver
• SOtM dCBL-BNC75
• Habst Digital Silver
• WAVE Storm
• HFC CT-2
• HFC CT-2 (JSSG360 shielded)
• HFS CT-2 (Schroeder, JSSG360).

I put the Habst and the WAVE Storm in italics because I didn't have them on hand this time, but this is where they placed in past evaluations.

 

Just to put this in context, even the $289 ea. Pulsar Ag cables elevated the SQ of the bridge well past the straight USB path. However, this appears to be one area where you get what you pay for. As I ascended up the price range, what I heard was:

• a more expansive and open soundstage
• Tighter, more articulate bass
• instruments snapping into focus
• and finally with the Schroeder HFC CT-2s, just a wonderful organic and natural sound.

 

What's Next?

 

Honestly, I don't really have anything more on the horizon. Change will come - it always does. Certainly, if @Zaphod Beeblebrox continues to make improvements to PGGB, or Emile delivers improvements on the Extreme, I will gladly take them, but I feel incredibly blessed with the sound quality I'm currently experiencing!

[austinpop]

10 minutes ago, auricgoldfinger said:

 

Thanks for the update!  In your opinion, would the SRC-DX also be of benefit to DAVE owners who do not have an Extreme?

 

 

Is the latency of the Amanero interface audible because it is coupled with an extremely low latency server like the Extreme? And conversely, in a chain with a different server, whose latency may be higher, would this effect dissipate? This is what remains to be seen.

 

BTW - the above hypothesis was articulated by @romaz on another channel you and I are on, and it's a very good one.

[austinpop]

1 minute ago, AudioDoctor said:

 

My other DAC has an Amanero USB input and now I want to test the other inputs and see what I think. I have had an idea that I have been meaning to call Fred about regarding one of the other inputs. If the others sound better, I suppose this could be a worthwhile addition.

 

It's worth a try. Of course, there are other considerations that come into play, since every input type has its quirks, and the quality can vary based on the DAC.

[austinpop]

28 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

 

 

Very interesting, is there more info about this someplace? Has anyone been using this already in Lampizator DACs?

I’ve seen posts like this on WBF:

 

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/taiko-audio-sgm-extreme-the-crème-de-la-crème.27433/post-706421

[austinpop]

First Listen: Sean Jacobs DC4 ARC6 PSU for Chord DAVE

 

For over a year now, my DAVE DAC has been powered by a Sean Jacobs DC3 PSU. I remember when I first deployed it to replace the stock PSU, the improvement was shocking, even though I have experienced the effect good PSUs can make on a DAC many times. I knew even then that Sean's DC4 was a further step up in SQ, as @ray-dude reported in his fabulous review, but I was content to wait, as I have had a Paul Hynes SR7 for DAVE on order for a very long time. I won't speculate when that unit will show up, but when @Nenon recently offered to lend me his personal pre-production DC4 ARC6 unit to audition for a couple of weeks while he's traveling, I jumped at the chance.

 

Similar to our involvement with PGGB, @ray-dude, @romaz, and I had been experimenting with @Nenon on PSU "what-if" experiments. I should say that it was those 3 doing hands-on experiments, with me participating vicariously. There is a whole story around how the ARC6 came to be, which will be told some day, but the end result is an enhancement to the DC4 that @Nenon and Sean have developed, and are now finalizing prior to release. The ARC6 version is an evolution of the entire design, but centers around a new capacitor board that goes prior to the regulators. There is more to the design than that, but a full description should wait until the design is finalized for release. The version I got is a late prototype, and is a single box incarnation with one large transformer (both box and transformer are large!). Still being considered is a no-compromise design with multiple transformers (up to 1 per rail), that will necessitate dual chassis.

 

 

Listening Impressions

 

I wanted to experience the DC4 ARC6 and compare it to my reference DC3. I know many of you also want to know how the ARC6 upgrade improves on the base DC4, but the logistics of getting me both DC4 and ARC6 units proved too complicated. But never fear — that comparison will be done soon enough by other trusted AS'ers.

 

Since swapping PSUs on the DAVE is not a simple matter, and involves opening up the DAVE, I was initially fretting about how I'd be able to switch back and forth between my DC3 and this DC4 ARC6. As it turned out, the swapping was totally unnecessary! Just a few seconds of listening to the DC4 ARC6 was enough to know this was on a totally different level of performance. If I was merely shocked going from the stock PSU to the DC3, I was flabbergasted going from the DC3 to DC4 ARC6! I'll describe the differences in terms of 4 different attributes of SQ.

 

Physicality, Density, and Dimensionality

 

One of the most striking things I heard with the DC4 ARC6 was the solidity and physicality of the sound stage. Every instrument moved up a notch in realism, sounding more  fully formed, what I have called dimensional in past reviews. You get a sense of each instrument occupying 3-dimensional space.

 

Bass

 

Nowhere was this more evident than in instruments, like the cello, basson, double bass, and tympani. Even clarinets, harps, and violas took on a weight and heft that rendered these instruments more realistically than ever. This wasn't bass for bass' sake, or exaggerated in any way. It just reminded me more of how actual live instruments sound.

 

Dynamics

 

This was no surprise, as it's often the first benefit of a better PSU. With dynamics, I find the benefit most noticeable when listening at lower volumes. Where playback at the low volume previously sounded boring and unexciting, it now took on energy, excitement, and a greater level of engagement, since crescendos appear more impactful, and diminuendos are rendered with better clarity. 

 

Resolution

 

This was an artifact of the lowered noise floor of this PSU. PGGB dovetails into this beautifully. Because PGGB reveals so much more low-level nuance in the music, the deployment of a PSU that lowers the noise floor allows that nuance to come through. I was hearing details and cues I hadn't previously. This was particularly evident in my PGGBed version of Solti's Mahler 8th, where I could hear instrument groups as a collection of individual instruments, rather than a homogeneous whole, even during full-throated orchestral passages. 

 

In Summary

 

The experience of upgrading from DC3 to the DC4 ARC6 reminded me of what I heard when I went from the dCS Bartók to the Rossini, as I described in my Bartók review. Substitute DC3 for Bartók and DC4 ARC6 for Rossini and the same sentiments apply.

 

The net impact of all these areas of improvement was that I just could not get enough of the DC4 ARC6 while it was here at chez austinpop! Every listening session has gone deep into the night, and has taken a remarkable amount of willpower to end. Suffice it to say, I'm a bit sleep-deprived and very depressed to be packing this thing up and sending it on to Roy and Ray for the remainder of its grand tour.

 

My expectation is that the final configuration(s) of the ARC6 DC4 units will be finalized in the next few weeks. It is also my understanding that Sean will provide an upgrade path for current DC4 owners, which is only fair. If you're considering a PSU upgrade for your DAVE, this one's a slam dunk!

[austinpop]

12 minutes ago, auricgoldfinger said:

 

Excellent post, Rajiv!  I'm curious...if you were at a live performance of Solti's Mahler 8th, would you be able to hear individual instruments during full-throated passages, or is that a function of listening to PGGBed files through your headphones?

 

Thanks for calling out my sloppy phrasing, Brian! You're correct, that's not what I was trying to convey. Here is my edited sentence:

 

...where I could hear instrument groups as a collection of individual instruments, rather than a homogeneous whole, even during full-throated orchestral passages. 

[austinpop]

33 minutes ago, ray-dude said:

 

Great write up Rajiv!

 

Having had prototype components strewn all over my living room and dining room for 6 months, stepping backwards to my DC3 was a very very difficult thing to do.  Can't wait to hear the pre production units and some of that ARC6 magic again!

 

For DC4 owners, be prepared for an absolutely stunning lift to whatever impact DC4 has in your chain.  Pretty remarkable, esp. with a device that scales like the Chord DAVE.

 

Kudos to you guys for all your experiments! I'm only hearing the end result, whereas you guys put in the work to suss out different alternatives. The end result is quite stunning.

[austinpop]

8 hours ago, LondonDan said:

Anyone experience this with sound change? I live in a series of tall flats that historically only had virgin media cable. Fibre to street then coaxial cable to flats. This last few weeks a fibre provider installed fibre cable to every flat. The whole area is brand new install for them. Mine was installed yesterday and I am one of the first to switch on. Everything in the system remains the same (switches cables etc LPS) except the modem is now a fibre modem before my edge router x instead of cable modem. Even the LPS 12 is the same.

 

the sound with new equipment is more compressed and bass has decreased.

 

anyone ever changes ISP with totally new gear back to the street and suffered a big decrease in SQ?

 

could it just be that the modem and other fibre equipment from the ISP needs breaking in, it’s all brand new not just a switch of an existing ISP that has been running for years.

 

the modem they gave is Adtran the network is called community fibre, area is London.

 

joins go as follows, fibre up wall 10 floors from their splitter cabinet, pigtail splice to wall socket, 5m fibre patch to modem, modem powered by LPS I was using before.

 

That's a tough situation, because it's at the point in your chain where you have least control. I have not directly compared one ISP to another, so this is something most of us rarely get a chance to compare.

 

I would see if the ISP is willing to let you try an alternate modem. Here in the US, many ISPs allow users to supply their own modem (and avoid the lease fee), but there are many plans that bundle the modem lease. Perhaps a different modem (brand/model) will resolve the issue.

 

The unfortunate truth of the networking chain leading to the audio system is that the entire chain makes an impact. However, switches like the Melco S100, modded Buffalo, SOtM sNH-10G, and Uptone etherRegen, among others, do mute (but not eliminate) the impact of the upstream. It sounds like you have such a switch (or chain of switches) already. Similarly, ensuring the entire network chain is on LPSes also helps. Here too, it looks like you're already doing that.

 

As I've discussed in my recent posts, I've grown weary of chasing these network tweaks, and endeavor, where possible, to run locally stored (or cached) music with the network disconnected. "No network" never disappoints me! Of course, this does not address the use case of streaming music.

 

Ultimately, if the problem does not resolve, you're faced with the choice of retaining your old ISP. Frustrating, I know.

[austinpop]

4 hours ago, F208Frank said:

Is my chain considered a direct connection and or a bridged connection?

 

Router - ethernet cable - antipodes server/player (single box) - usb cable - dac

 

Since you only have the one network connection here (your Antipodes server), you don't have (nor need) a bridged connection.

 

4 hours ago, F208Frank said:

If one can suggest, what can be potentially added for most bang for buck improvement, does having a server/player in a single box make the some parts of the "ultra trifecta" redundant?

 

I would suggest you assess SQ improvements as a sequence of small steps. After each step, assess if you hear an improvement, and if so, is it worth the cost of the change? You make the decision to keep the change, or go back!

1. Try a better PSU on your router.
2. Try one of the positively reviewed switches here in the chain.
   • Router - ethernet cable - switch - ethernet cable - antipodes server/player (single box) - usb cable - dac
3. Try a better PSU on the switch.

For switches, I've directly tried and liked the Uptone EtherRegen, the SOtM sNH-10g. Others have mentioned a couple more if you look back on the thread.

 

For PSUs, similarly, I've directly tried and liked the Uptone LPS-1.2, Farad Super 3, Paul Hynes SR-4T. Others have been mentioned too.

 

You can get better bang for the buck by finding these on the used market. Search sites like hifishark.com.

[austinpop]

Since I normally post system updates here, here is a link to my latest:

 

 

[austinpop]

On 12/28/2023 at 8:55 AM, VegArchie said:

 

 

5 years later, how would you rate this setup compared to what is now available? What are you currently using? Would you recommend to a current Innuos ZENith MK3 owner this AudioLinux ram option for their Innuos ROON core+endpoint?

 

 

 

Apologies, I can't answer this. I've moved on from the Innuos platform, so have no idea to what extent InnuOS and their player have evolved in SQ, relative to AudioLinux or Euphony. But it looks from the other thread that you posted that you tried this experiment and generated some interesting findings!

 

As to what I'm currently using, this article details my current setup: 

 

[austinpop]

On 1/3/2024 at 7:54 PM, VegArchie said:

If I'm reading correctly, you eventually changed your music server to the Taiko Extreme. How did this compare to what you had before?

 

Hi VegArchie,

 

I've written about this on this thread, so anything I say now would be repeating myself. If you use the search bar above and search back on this thread (topic) for "update" and limit the search to my user id, I think you'll find them easily enough. Updates prior to 2020 are also indexed in the first post of this thread. I stopped maintaining that index after that point. I can't swear this link will work in perpetuity, but this should give you the search I described in this paragraph: https://audiophilestyle.com/search/?q=update&quick=1&item=30376&type=forums_topic&author=austinpop&sortby=newest&search_and_or=and

 

Here is the post where I shared my impressions about the Extreme and my previous server: https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/?do=findComment&comment=1073467

 

 

Just to summarize my steps since I owned the Innuos ZENith SE, I progressed through:

• a low-power Pentium NUC endpoint running Audio Linux
• a Core i7 NUC NUC7i7DNBE/Plato X7D endpoint running Audio Linux and then Euphony
• an i7-8700T custom standalone music server running Euphony
• an i7-8700K custom standalone music server running Euphony
• to finally the Taiko Extreme.

[austinpop]

1 hour ago, Downtheline said:

Is olympus next?

 

 

I hope so! But it will take time for the coffers to refill enough to make that feasible for me! Partly it will depend on resale of other gear, including my Extreme.

 

My Extreme won't become available until mid-year, when the Olympus XDMI arrives. But if anyone is interested in moving up to the Extreme, and would like to lock in my unit, PM me and we can discuss the details.

[austinpop]

Hi folks, OP here.

 

Entertaining as it might be to get into a speculative discussion of whether something is "worth" its cost, it's off topic here. If you've got direct listening experiences to report, please do so.