Article: Sonore microRendu Review, Part 2

[The Computer Audiophile]

I rarely get on audiophile forums, and this thread is perfect proof why

 

Here's one secret measurement that I've found to be foolproof - audiophile forum post counts.

 

Super high post counts are almost always indicative of audiophiles you SHOULDN'T listen to.

 

What person with a good system would prefer to post constantly on an audiophile forums...especially to take extreme positions such as.... "my ears are infallible - subjectivity rules - measurements are worthless" or "measurements quantify everything human ears can hear - bad measurements always show scam products"

 

This thread should have died long ago. Amir posted some measurements. Superdad responded from the other side claiming that the measurements are inaudible and/or done wrong. That should be it for now until any new relevant information is provided from either side. Instead, it's turned into arguments about generalities and extreme positions.

 

I question anyone who strictly buys gear based on measurements. On the flip side, anyone who ignores relevant measurements/physics is going to fall prey to gear mismatches and worse (i.e. snake oil salesmen).

 

This is deja vu with the Regen a year ago. I got into an argument with Bob Katz (and Bruno Putkeys via Bob) about the viability of the Regen. They were in the Amir camp (with far more credentials and expertise than Amir). I argued that certain DACs and low quality servers could gain an audible benefit trying it...especially at the price. They claimed it was worthless and a scam. Once they started making those claims, I just exited and went back to listening to my system because it was clear nothing I could say would change their mind. All I said was.."We'll see in a year how many people successfully enjoy it and how many copycat products get made from other firms."

 

Even though my prediction came true, it doesn't make me 100% right because I also know there are gear combos where the Regen does little to nothing audible. However, it's clearly not a scam or worthless for many people either.

 

Being an audiophile doesn't mean you have to post incessantly on forums, take extreme positions, and be paranoid about any contrarian view. If so, I'll happily return my membership card.

 

If you bought and like the microRendu and have confidence in what you hear, then just laugh at the naysayers and listen to your system versus arguing on a forum. It only sabotages your credibility and shows paranoia doing otherwise.

 

If you think the microRendu is a scam product, then provide comprehensive and well-done measurements that are applicable to human hearing. Also make sure you take into account any positives in one area that may offset negative measurements in another area.

Out of the 1.5 million unique people who will read CA in 2016, far less than 1% post. Of that 1%, the number of people who get out of hand is astronomically low (at least here on CA). Plus, nobody is required to read anything they don't want. In addition, 99.99% of people reading are smart enough to weed through the crap and pick out the good nuggets of info they're looking for.

[YashN]

It's also interesting that he stopped posting on WBF after he embarrassed himself with a display of technical stupidity &a arrogance about how asynchronous USB worked by retransmitting USB packets when needed & saying that this was one of the working principles of the Regen which JohnS told him. What a blunder - firstly to not know enough about asynch USB to know that packet re-transmissions are not part of the protocol but more seriously to then try to state that it was what John Swenson told him.

 

At that point, his technical credibility & inability to admit he made a mistake (nothing wrong with that - we all learn new things all the time) was evident for all to see - I'm not surprised he stopped posting.

 

Ah yes, at that point it was either stupidity or deliberate mud-slinging, it couldn't be any other option.

 

I remember that well as I participated in that thread myself.

 

At the same time I was having a cool exchange via PM with Steve, one of the founders and had the impression that things were going to change so I just trusted this and let it go for a while. When I came back, it was refreshing to see Amir gone for good.

 

ASR is "where people with defective hearing go to shrivel".

[clipper]

This thread should have died long ago. Amir posted some measurements. Superdad responded from the other side claiming that the measurements are inaudible and/or done wrong. That should be it for now until any new relevant information is provided from either side. Instead, it's turned into arguments about generalities and extreme positions.

 

He did much more than just post some measurements.

 

He drew conclusions that include the following:

 

1) From psychoacoustics point of view, anything that has such patterns will be more audible than one that is smooth, even if its level is lower! So the addition of microRendu is a step backward in reduction of audible noise.

 

2) Those low frequency spikes below 1 Khz with microRendu are especially problematic for a device that claims to be cleaning things up. It has done the opposite for sure.

 

3) Sadly the outcome here is not a happy one. The increased amplitude can confuse users into thinking they are getting improved sound when in reality they are not. The assumed benefits of this device are NOT there based on this data. There are increased noise and distortions in lower frequencies and no evidence of anything made better. Given the added complexity of using such a device, my recommendation remains to hardwire your DAC to your server through USB. If your server is too noisy, then sure, you can use this or any other ones on the network in a different room. The increased distortions here are unlikely to be audible.

 

4) This is not good. Addition of microRendu and ifi Power supply has resulted in many new distortion/noise products. The degradation is as much as 30 db! The noise floor is now very jagged, correlated (has patterns) and increased compared to using the DAC direct. We went from the clean, noise floor of the DAC by itself (in green) to this chewed up noise floor.

 

5) From psychoacoustics point of view, anything that has such patterns will be more audible than one that is smooth, even if its level is lower. So the addition of microRendu is a step backward in reduction of audible noise.

 

6) Mind you, all of this is at very low levels and very likely not audible. But to the extent someone wants to hang their hat on this device having "less noise," they just lost that argument.

7) Further in the thread I show the increased noise floor to be mains frequency of 60 Hz in US and its harmonics. This shows that microRendu lacks good power filtering and that iFi power supply has a dirtier output than the USB connection on my laptop!

8) The differences are within variations of measurements so clearly you don't want to use an iFi iPower supply with microRendu lest you want to be worse off than using the DAC direct through USB.

 

9) The combination of Sonore microRendu and ifi iPower is not good news. Performance is significantly degraded by injection of AC mains input of 60 Hz and its harmonics. If you are going to use microRendu, then you should opt for a power supply like the SBOOSTER that has measured system performance that demonstrates its performance in this system. Once there, this device is useful from functionality point of view in allowing the DAC to sit remotely on a network. From audio performance point of view, the measurements do not show any improvements.

 

Note - Paragraphs 1-3 were later deleted.

 

So if his measurements turn out to be good science, he probably had a good basis for some of his conclusions.

 

If his measurements turn out to be bad science, he unnecessarily denigrated two products (microRendu and iFi iPower).

 

In any case, he certainly did more than just post some measurements.

[YashN]

He did much more than just post some measurements.

 

Do you know of any serious third party measurement lab where a dog chews the device under test?

 

Have to correct my previous statement: he's not out of WBF completely, but there's been a change of ownership - hopefully he posts less of his drivel over there.

 

Hopefully, the same isn't propagated in this forum...

[Dev]

But RedNet is Focusrite is Dante is Audinate--and that is a proprietary licensed system, based on Audinate's modules that have been around for five years, and is not cheap.

 

 

I failed to understand how the Rednet/Audinat system is more expensive than others. Since you talk about uRendu (and your own products) so much, lets take an example

 

Sonore uRendu + Sonore Signature Power Supply = $640 + $1589 = $2229

 

Rednet D16 = $1599.99

 

To top this off, the uRendu really needs HQP and Roon to perform at its best. There is nothing wrong in this but anyone looking to get the best SQ has to invest in these products as well. I have gone through all the modes and so have others who feel the same way. So this is another $145 + $500.

 

So which one is more expensive now ?

 

 

The Dante DVS s/w it comes with will not work with hardware products other than those using Dante's Brooklyn modules.

 

 

And why is this a problem ? Does uRendu work with Jplay or any arbitrary random things ? You could argue that it works with standardized open protocols but I don't think its necessarily wrong if a particular s/w only works with a particular hardware product. In fact, I think that makes more sense and more optimized & efficient than be the jack of all trades.

 

AES67/Ravenna has promise, but at present, none of the available OEM Ethernet>I2S input modules come with supported virtual sound card software (needed for Windows, OS X, and Linux) to allow everyone's player apps to see the Ethernet-connected DAC on the network. Only when such is readily available will you begin to see specialist and consumer DAC designers incorporating AES67/Ravenna to offer Ethernet input.

 

This will eventually happen when AES67 trickles down into the consumer market. Till that time comes there is one such product in existence (Rednet) at reasonable cost which could possibly give me more musical enjoyment.

 

For now, the two Focusrite/RedNet Ethernet>S/PDIF boxes are giving some a taste of what could come--and that is great.

 

From the reviews I have read so far, I think this is more than great and much more affordable.

 

And for many others (including myself in my own system) there is this thread's Sonore MicroRendu, offering multiple Ethernet audio modes, including HQ Player and Roon.

 

But its still USB at the end I am listening the uRendu through a cheap DDC over AES/EBU and it sounds great than connecting it directly to the DAC.

[Vinh]

Anybody playing this toy with Yggdrasil, any impressions, quality issues, mismatch?

[sbank]

Anybody playing this toy with Yggdrasil, any impressions, quality issues, mismatch?

Many Yggy and Gumby users have already posted positive comments about use with mR. Search is your friend.

[Vinh]

Many Yggy and Gumby users have already posted positive comments about use with mR. Search is your friend.

 

Thanks, have tried but my computer skills seems to poor.

[JHG]

Yes, I have a Yggy and am absolutely thrilled with the sound quality improvement. No issues.

 

New review of the microRendu: Sonore by Simple Design microRendu | AudioStream

[sbank]

If you can't handle search, then I'd suggest avoiding HQ Player.

 

I have had no issues with Gumby and mR. Highly recommended.

[clipper]

microRendu working great with Yggy here too.

[wilsynet]

Really interesting component. I'm using an Eero mesh network that, though about as unconstrained as possible, may still create issues, even if I directly wire out to the microRendu. I rarely have any issues with the N10 as its configured today.

 

Get something like a TP-LINK AV500 Nano Powerline AC adapter. Plug one side into the router / huh directly, and plug the N10 or uRendu into the other side. If your computer source is also set up wirelessly, get the computer onto the powerline network too.

 

With 500MB/s worth of bandwidth, you can do much better than any wifi network.

 

Wifi is more convenient, but for a small set of devices that need more bandwidth, powerline Ethernet can work better. And you can put your other devices on wifi for convenience.

 

Of course, if you can go with straight up Ethernet to the bandwidth heavy devices, that would be even better.

 

At the end of the day, even a mesh network based wifi network can't overcome the limitations of wifi.

[Archimago]

Powerline adaptor bandwidth is more like ~30-40Mbps actual speed.

 

More reliable than wireless but speed isn't great in my experience.

[adamaley]

You know, I've been involved in the pursuit of better sound for right around 50 years now. Many of my posts are made to hopefully open the eyes (and ears) of those who haven't been completely brainwashed yet. To save them from wasting large sums of money on useless gadgets and widgets, or chasing true High Fidelity down paths that lead to nowhere.

I don't have any horse in this race and will make no financial gain from the time I spend here.

I find it curious you categorize my statements of fact and honest opinions as "asinine nasty snark", from what angle do you try and discredit me?

 

As if 50 years validates anything you say. It appears it may not have been 50 years well spent based on your insecurities, and lack of respect for those with an alternate point of view.

[MikeyFresh]

Get something like a TP-LINK AV500 Nano Powerline AC adapter. Plug one side into the router / huh directly, and plug the N10 or uRendu into the other side. If your computer source is also set up wirelessly, get the computer onto the powerline network too.

 

With 500MB/s worth of bandwidth, you can do much better than any wifi network.

 

Wifi is more convenient, but for a small set of devices that need more bandwidth, powerline Ethernet can work better. And you can put your other devices on wifi for convenience.

 

Of course, if you can go with straight up Ethernet to the bandwidth heavy devices, that would be even better.

 

At the end of the day, even a mesh network based wifi network can't overcome the limitations of wifi.

 

But for streaming music there is no lack of bandwidth with WiFi.

 

I am able to stream 24/192 or even DSD totally completely glitch-free (zero dropouts or problems of any kind) using an Airport Express as a wireless bridge in client mode.

 

That AEx "only" has a 100mb/s Fast Ethernet port, yet it works just fine with the microRendu in streaming the above mentioned file types over 802.11n wireless.

 

You don't need anything close to the latest greatest network speeds to stream music over a wireless network, although other specific factors such as total distance from the router, how many walls the signal has to pass through and what those walls are made of, and any sources of interference, can/will affect each individual outcome.

 

The microRendu works perfectly in tandem with the AEx in my network, again, not even capable of 802.11ac wireless, nor GigE wired performance, but it doesn't matter at all in my particular arrangement.

[barrows]

But for streaming music there is no lack of bandwidth with WiFi.

 

I am able to stream 24/192 or even DSD totally completely glitch-free (zero dropouts or problems of any kind) using an Airport Express as a wireless bridge in client mode.

 

That AEx "only" has a 100mb/s Fast Ethernet port, yet it works just fine with the microRendu in streaming the above mentioned file types over 802.11n wireless.

 

You don't need anything close to the latest greatest network speeds to stream music over a wireless network, although other specific factors such as total distance from the router, how many walls the signal has to pass through and what those walls are made of, and any sources of interference, can/will affect each individual outcome.

 

The microRendu works perfectly in tandem with the AEx in my network, again, not even capable of 802.11ac wireless, nor GigE wired performance, but it doesn't matter at all in my particular arrangement.

 

Doesn't the AE down convert higher sample rates to stream them? I know they used to... have you checked the DAC diagnostics on the µRendu web app to see if you are really getting 24/192 to the µRendu?

[Sal1950]

As if 50 years validates anything you say. It appears it may not have been 50 years well spent based on your insecurities, and lack of respect for those with an alternate point of view.

I would have hoped that you learned something from that short debate, but apparently not. Unfortunate.

[BobSherman]

I would have hoped that you learned something from that short debate, but apparently not. Unfortunate.

 

 

[video=youtube;Lk4iOmb-osk]

[DavidZ]

I failed to understand how the Rednet/Audinat system is more expensive than others. Since you talk about uRendu (and your own products) so much, lets take an example

 

Sonore uRendu + Sonore Signature Power Supply = $640 + $1589 = $2229

 

Rednet D16 = $1599.99

 

To top this off, the uRendu really needs HQP and Roon to perform at its best. There is nothing wrong in this but anyone looking to get the best SQ has to invest in these products as well. I have gone through all the modes and so have others who feel the same way. So this is another $145 + $500.

 

So which one is more expensive now ?

 

 

 

And why is this a problem ? Does uRendu work with Jplay or any arbitrary random things ? You could argue that it works with standardized open protocols but I don't think its necessarily wrong if a particular s/w only works with a particular hardware product. In fact, I think that makes more sense and more optimized & efficient than be the jack of all trades.

 

 

 

This will eventually happen when AES67 trickles down into the consumer market. Till that time comes there is one such product in existence (Rednet) at reasonable cost which could possibly give me more musical enjoyment.

 

 

 

From the reviews I have read so far, I think this is more than great and much more affordable.

 

 

 

But its still USB at the end I am listening the uRendu through a cheap DDC over AES/EBU and it sounds great than connecting it directly to the DAC.

 

I have listened to the mrendu in my system with Roon and with minimserver/bubble up np (the Dlna mode) and hear no difference in SQ. HQP (which I haven't heard) seems to add a zillion variables to the equation that would be the case with or without the mrendu in the system . So how is it fair to assert that the mrendu needs it to sound its best? It might be more accurate to say that HQP needs the mrendu to sound its best.

[Sal1950]

Let The Good Time Roll

Hey, I'm all for that!

[Doak]

I have listened to the mrendu in my system with Roon and with minimserver/bubble up np (the Dlna mode) and hear no difference in SQ. HQP (which I haven't heard) seems to add a zillion variables to the equation that would be the case with or without the mrendu in the system . So how is it fair to assert that the mrendu needs it to sound its best? It might be more accurate to say that HQP needs the mrendu to sound its best.

 

Using ST & mR in Roon mode, only mode I tried. Then added HQP running on Windows i5 laptop, mR in NAA mode. IMO the difference is dramatic with the SQ outstanding. More complicated, which I really detest but that should change with some time. Simply no going back.

[MikeyFresh]

Doesn't the AE down convert higher sample rates to stream them? I know they used to... have you checked the DAC diagnostics on the µRendu web app to see if you are really getting 24/192 to the µRendu?

 

In this case we are only talking about using the AEx as a wireless bridge to output over Ethernet. In that application the AEx is just receiving standard network data packets via wireless and transmitting them to the microRendu via 10/100 Ethernet.

 

The scenario you are describing only affects the AEx's optical S/PDIF output jack, and yes, that is definitely crippled by Apple's firmware to a maximum of 16/48 output. You can send it files of higher resolution, but they will be downsampled.

 

In the case of the microRendu none of that applies as the only available connection method between it and the AEx is 10/100 Ethernet.

[kennyb123]

HQP (which I haven't heard) seems to add a zillion variables to the equation that would be the case with or without the mrendu in the system . So how is it fair to assert that the mrendu needs it to sound its best? It might be more accurate to say that HQP needs the mrendu to sound its best.

 

What's accurate is that Roon sounds best when sent to the microRendu through HQPlayer. Those who try this seem to end up buying HQPlayer licenses.

 

It's pretty easy to hear how much better Roon sounds this way.

 

And it's ridiculous to say that HQPlayer adds a zillion variables. Really only a handful and even with them all bypassed, straight pass-through still sounds much better than going through RAAT.

[timtom]

What's accurate is that Roon sounds best when sent to the microRendu through HQPlayer. Those who try this seem to end up buying HQPlayer licenses.

 

It's pretty easy to hear how much better Roon sounds this way.

 

And it's ridiculous to say that HQPlayer adds a zillion variables. Really only a handful and even with them all bypassed, straight pass-through still sounds much better than going through RAAT.

 

+1

 

And it pained me to move away from PureMusic as I really enjoyed it but the Roon/HQPlayer/mRendu combination is a much better experience sonically and aesthetically. Also much more stable, less buggy and seamless with a combination of ALAC, DSD and hi-res PCM. HQPlayer is a lot more simple to set up that PureMusic IMO and Jussi makes himself constantly available to troubleshoot on the CA HQPlayer forum.

[Dev]

I have listened to the mrendu in my system with Roon and with minimserver/bubble up np (the Dlna mode) and hear no difference in SQ. HQP (which I haven't heard) seems to add a zillion variables to the equation that would be the case with or without the mrendu in the system . So how is it fair to assert that the mrendu needs it to sound its best? It might be more accurate to say that HQP needs the mrendu to sound its best.

 

 

As you can see, I am not the only one to claim this :-) mpd/dlna mode sucks the life out of the music. Once you hear Roon/HQP combo, I bet you can’t go back to either Roon or Dlna mode. The more resolving your system downstream is, the more differences you will hear between these modes. Before I bought uRendu, I didn’t have either Roon nor HQP. Downloaded them to try first and ended by buying.