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Article: Sonore microRendu Review, Part 2


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Distinctive,

 

I can't prove Chris' intentions, but I know him personally and have spent a lot of time talking to him. He is, to this audiophile, a very honest guy who cares deeply about his integrity and goes to great lengths to do the right thing. I'd be very surprised if his agenda was anything but to deliver the most honest accounting of the mR that he can.

 

Joel

I think you've got the wrong end of the stick - AFAIK, Distinctive is talking about Amir, not Chris.

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It would be one thing if the rendu wasn't also backed up by numerous user rave reviews not just here but elsewhere. I'm always suspicious of people who don't see the actual listening of music as the end game, but rather a means to pick apart the work of others who do. In photography there's a site that tests and rates the raw sensors of cameras. Of course this gets you only so far - there are a lot of other factors involved in making a great image, most of which can't be tested.

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BTW, John took a look at the graphs Amir published with the iFi SMPS and based on the nature of it, believes that most likely Amir is using a single-ended input and probe on his AP unit and that what is being seen is the leakage current of the iFi (all SMPS have caps that couple to AC ground and you get about 49 volts of between the mains ground and the DC output ground). His test system is tied into this and in a sense injecting/conducting the noise into the DAC since the devices are all tied together. If he would use a balanced input and probe with his Audio Precision system that crap would likely go away.

I am sure John will come and explain it a bit better.

 

This is not the first time Amir has made this sort of error (cough, REGEN, cough) with measurement grounding set up. So many people seem to think that all one needs to make good measurements is a fancy system and probes--when the truth is, it takes skill and understanding, especially when you are trying to measure very low level signals.

 

But as I said before, whatever he is measuring is not going to tell anyone a thing about how the product sounds.

 

I think I mentioned elsewhere (just after Chris un-redacted some of the tech stuff with Jesus's okay) that when John sat in my room and loaded the code into the MicroRendu to enable the "clock injection" (feeding the low-jitter USB hub clock back into the processor board so its USB sub-system would fund from it), my jaw dropped to the floor. What changed will likely never be able to be readily measured (or correlated to what was heard) at the output. In fact it would probably take a dedicated $100K jitter analyzer to even get close to probing in the right spot to be able to point to the change. But it took less than 10 seconds to hear it--and it is just one of many refinements that make the MicroRendu rise above other streamers/renderers/servers/computers for audio.

 

--Alex C.

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I've had the microRendu running for 24 hours now and it sounds fantastic. It took another leap forward today when I went from a 9v iFi power supply to the Uptone Audio JS-2 set at 7v.

 

In Chris' review(part 2) he talks about the Sonore Signature PS developed by Barrows Worm and Adrian Lebena. The Sonore website talks about the SSPS as being tuned specially for the microRendu. Further, Sonore sells the SSPS with an additional Synergistic Research fuse upgrade option which adds an additional 190 USD to the base price of 1399 USD. I have no plans to outlay any money on a new power supply but I wonder what kind of sound difference would be expected in going from the JS-2 to the SSPS with or without the SR fuse upgrade. At this point the JS-2 is looking more and more like a bargain, particularly given its extra inputs.

 

I mean no disrespect to Barrows or Adrian and what I'm certain is an outstanding product; I just wonder what delta in performance is received for a not insignificant delta in price.

 

Esau

 

Esau,

 

There really is no valid way I am aware of to quantify the possible difference in performance between a supply such as the JS-2 and the Sonore Signature Power Supply (SPS) when being used to power the µRendu. Remember also that any performance delta will be system dependent: the better the system, the bigger the differences will be, as higher resolution will reveal more difference. I have not personally inspected, tested, or listened to a JS-2, so I cannot speculate on how it might sound with the µRendu vs. the SPS. All I can say is that the SPS was specifically designed to allow the µRendu to operate as best as it possibly can, and not as a general purpose power supply for powering many different things.

Technically speaking, the SPS does use a very, very good discrete regulator, which I am almost certain has significantly less noise and faster response than what is used in the JS-2; but without a direct comparison of both units powering the µRendu, I would not speculate on how either might sound.

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BTW, John took a look at the graphs Amir published with the iFi SMPS and based on the nature of it, believes that most likely Amir is using a single-ended input and probe on his AP unit and that what is being seen is the leakage current of the iFi (all SMPS have caps that couple to AC ground and you get about 49 volts of between the mains ground and the DC output ground). His test system is tied into this and in a sense injecting/conducting the noise into the DAC since the devices are all tied together. If he would use a balanced input and probe with his Audio Precision system that crap would likely go away.

I am sure John will come and explain it a bit better.

 

This is not the first time Amir has made this sort of error (cough, REGEN, cough) with measurement grounding set up. So many people seem to think that all one needs to make good measurements is a fancy system and probes--when the truth is, it takes skill and understanding, especially when you are trying to measure very low level signals.

 

But as I said before, whatever he is measuring is not going to tell anyone a thing about how the product sounds.

 

I think I mentioned elsewhere (just after Chris un-redacted some of the tech stuff with Jesus's okay) that when John sat in my room and loaded the code into the MicroRendu to enable the "clock injection" (feeding the low-jitter USB hub clock back into the processor board so its USB sub-system would fund from it), my jaw dropped to the floor. What changed will likely never be able to be readily measured (or correlated to what was heard) at the output. In fact it would probably take a dedicated $100K jitter analyzer to even get close to probing in the right spot to be able to point to the change. But it took less than 10 seconds to hear it--and it is just one of many refinements that make the MicroRendu rise above other streamers/renderers/servers/computers for audio.

 

--Alex C.

 

So where are your measurements? You can pre-empt such issues if you showed some of your own measurements.

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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So where are your measurements? You can pre-empt such issues if you showed some of your own measurements.

That sounds like a good route, but I'm not so sure the ultra-skeptics wouldn't run their own measurements anyway. The skepticism with HiFi runs far too deep for die hard objectivists to accept a company's measurements.

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BTW, John took a look at the graphs Amir published with the iFi SMPS and based on the nature of it, believes that most likely Amir is using a single-ended input and probe on his AP unit and that what is being seen is the leakage current of the iFi (all SMPS have caps that couple to AC ground and you get about 49 volts of between the mains ground and the DC output ground). His test system is tied into this and in a sense injecting/conducting the noise into the DAC since the devices are all tied together. If he would use a balanced input and probe with his Audio Precision system that crap would likely go away.

I am sure John will come and explain it a bit better.

 

This is not the first time Amir has made this sort of error (cough, REGEN, cough) with measurement grounding set up. So many people seem to think that all one needs to make good measurements is a fancy system and probes--when the truth is, it takes skill and understanding, especially when you are trying to measure very low level signals.

 

But as I said before, whatever he is measuring is not going to tell anyone a thing about how the product sounds.

 

I think I mentioned elsewhere (just after Chris un-redacted some of the tech stuff with Jesus's okay) that when John sat in my room and loaded the code into the MicroRendu to enable the "clock injection" (feeding the low-jitter USB hub clock back into the processor board so its USB sub-system would fund from it), my jaw dropped to the floor. What changed will likely never be able to be readily measured (or correlated to what was heard) at the output. In fact it would probably take a dedicated $100K jitter analyzer to even get close to probing in the right spot to be able to point to the change. But it took less than 10 seconds to hear it--and it is just one of many refinements that make the MicroRendu rise above other streamers/renderers/servers/computers for audio.

 

--Alex C.

Hi Alex,

 

If there was such problem with iFi Power, the same testing setup in later measurement with different PS - I assume that the testing setup was exactly the same - gave a better result, although not particularly favorable to microRendu (same result with/our mR).

 

However, I do not want to get into that though. I agree with you that until a dynamic signal (like music) is measured one is "not going to tell anyone a thing about how the product sounds." Same thing applies to Atkinson.

 

If the insertion of a microRendu creates a jaw drop, as you claim, the signal variation is for sure measurable. ...at least by me :)

I offered my services - and I do not have any hidden agenda or interest involved - if one wants to grab the chance. ...Otherwise it seems to me that one prefers to keep the situation "foggy", one way or the other.

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So where are your measurements? You can pre-empt such issues if you showed some of your own measurements.

 

He doesn't do any, but he "reckons it sounds good" anyway. :)

"The gullibility of audiophiles is what astonishes me the most, even after all these years. How is it possible, how did it ever happen, that they trust fairy-tale purveyors and mystic gurus more than reliable sources of scientific information?"

Peter Aczel - The Audio Critic

nomqa.webp.aa713f2bb9e304522011cdb2d2ca907d.webp  R.I.P. MQA 2014-2023: Hyped product thanks to uneducated, uncritical advocates & captured press.

 

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So where are your measurements? You can pre-empt such issues if you showed some of your own measurements.

 

That sounds like a good route, but I'm not so sure the ultra-skeptics wouldn't run their own measurements anyway. The skepticism with HiFi runs far too deep for die hard objectivists to accept a company's measurements.

 

When manufacturers do give spec's they are usually accurate, but may be stated in misleading ways or with parameter details that the average consumer doesn't understand. Like the 300 wpc AVR that measures with one channel driven at 1% distortion, or the old trick of stating a "instantaneous peak power" as the output.

If the rated spec's are incomplete or non-existent, you can be sure they're hiding something or just trying to sell on their subjective marketing spin.

You have the "skeptical" objective community to thank for shinig a light into the darkness of the subjective "trust my ears only" community.

"David Copperfield made that 747 disappear right off the runway, I saw it with my own eyes so it really happened"! :)

"The gullibility of audiophiles is what astonishes me the most, even after all these years. How is it possible, how did it ever happen, that they trust fairy-tale purveyors and mystic gurus more than reliable sources of scientific information?"

Peter Aczel - The Audio Critic

nomqa.webp.aa713f2bb9e304522011cdb2d2ca907d.webp  R.I.P. MQA 2014-2023: Hyped product thanks to uneducated, uncritical advocates & captured press.

 

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Esau,

 

There really is no valid way I am aware of to quantify the possible difference in performance between a supply such as the JS-2 and the Sonore Signature Power Supply (SPS) when being used to power the µRendu. Remember also that any performance delta will be system dependent: the better the system, the bigger the differences will be, as higher resolution will reveal more difference. I have not personally inspected, tested, or listened to a JS-2, so I cannot speculate on how it might sound with the µRendu vs. the SPS. All I can say is that the SPS was specifically designed to allow the µRendu to operate as best as it possibly can, and not as a general purpose power supply for powering many different things.

Technically speaking, the SPS does use a very, very good discrete regulator, which I am almost certain has significantly less noise and faster response than what is used in the JS-2; but without a direct comparison of both units powering the µRendu, I would not speculate on how either might sound.

 

barrows, thanks for the thorough reply. So it appears that the discrete regulator and the design of the SPS with only the microRendu in mind are the objective upgrades over the JS-2. My modest living room system is still very resolving, however, given the general phasing out of brick and mortar audio shops I don't see where I would be likely to compare the two power supplies in my own home.

 

I'm not sure if Chris has access to a JS-2 to make the comparison(or, for that matter, if that is something that he would care to do at this point), however, it would be great to at some point read a review where the comparison is made.

 

I also wonder if Jesus has any direct experience with both power supplies given that he includes specs on the Sonore website for setting up the microRendu with the JS-2. That may, however, be a recommendation solely based on specs provided on the Uptone Audio website.

 

In any regard, I am happy to see that Sonore describes a range of power supply options for buyers to choose based on their interests in and abilities to make smaller or larger financial investments in the microRendu.

 

Esau

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Puleeeeeeze...... Ughhhh!!!

 

I wonder how many of those shouting the loudest about scientific measurements have ever tried any measurements themselves.

 

It is bloody difficult, forget about the expense of accurate testing equipment!

 

And at the same time they often discount one of the most sensitive bits of testing kit anyone here has for free...

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When manufacturers do give spec's they are usually accurate, but may be stated in misleading ways or with parameter details that the average consumer doesn't understand. Like the 300 wpc AVR that measures with one channel driven at 1% distortion, or the old trick of stating a "instantaneous peak power" as the output.

If the rated spec's are incomplete or non-existent, you can be sure they're hiding something or just trying to sell on their subjective marketing spin.

You have the "skeptical" objective community to thank for shinig a light into the darkness of the subjective "trust my ears only" community.

"David Copperfield made that 747 disappear right off the runway, I saw it with my own eyes so it really happened"! :)

Yup Everyone here owns amplifiers that are measured at 1% distortion using peak power. In fact Colby is one of most popular brands in this forum. We really need people to enlighten us and bring us to the promised land. We must thank the measurement guru for all he has done.

 

The only darkness in this scenario is the dishonesty of the fool with his distortion analyzer, and the few sad individuals who blindly follow him.

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We must thank the measurement guru for all he has done.

.

 

Your very welcome Bob! And not to worry, we will continue advance the science of audio thru measurement and sound engineering for the greater good of everyone. All else is gaslight. ;)

"The gullibility of audiophiles is what astonishes me the most, even after all these years. How is it possible, how did it ever happen, that they trust fairy-tale purveyors and mystic gurus more than reliable sources of scientific information?"

Peter Aczel - The Audio Critic

nomqa.webp.aa713f2bb9e304522011cdb2d2ca907d.webp  R.I.P. MQA 2014-2023: Hyped product thanks to uneducated, uncritical advocates & captured press.

 

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I wonder how many of those shouting the loudest about scientific measurements have ever tried any measurements themselves.

 

It is bloody difficult, forget about the expense of accurate testing equipment!

 

And at the same time they often discount one of the most sensitive bits of testing kit anyone here has for free...

In my ears, I trust.

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"David Copperfield made that 747 disappear right off the runway, I saw it with my own eyes so it really happened"! :)

 

In my ears, I trust.

 

Our senses are the least reliable indicator to put your trust in. If you test your ears judgement by submitting them to bias controled blind testing and comparing the result with that of many other trained listeners, you might have a chance of getting supportable results.

"The gullibility of audiophiles is what astonishes me the most, even after all these years. How is it possible, how did it ever happen, that they trust fairy-tale purveyors and mystic gurus more than reliable sources of scientific information?"

Peter Aczel - The Audio Critic

nomqa.webp.aa713f2bb9e304522011cdb2d2ca907d.webp  R.I.P. MQA 2014-2023: Hyped product thanks to uneducated, uncritical advocates & captured press.

 

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Our senses are the least reliable indicator to put your trust in. If you test your ears judgement by submitting them to bias controled blind testing and comparing the result with that of many other trained listeners, you might have a chance of getting supportable results.

Won't waste any more of my time with this circular whatever-it-is. Adios.

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Our senses are the least reliable indicator to put your trust in. If you test your ears judgement by submitting them to bias controled blind testing and comparing the result with that of many other trained listeners, you might have a chance of getting supportable results.

 

Are you forgetting that we're listening to music here?

 

What I'm striving for is whatever makes my music sound better. To me. And my ears.

 

I'm not looking for "supportable results."

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Are you forgetting that we're listening to music here?

 

What I'm striving for is whatever makes my music sound better. To me. And my ears.

 

I'm not looking for "supportable results."

 

That's fine and a perfectly acceptable position. Personal tastes are whole different thing than High Fidelity.

It's when folks make claims of some component or widget being "better or more accurate to the source" that the supposition will be questioned. Then you need to provide evidence.

Ciao

"The gullibility of audiophiles is what astonishes me the most, even after all these years. How is it possible, how did it ever happen, that they trust fairy-tale purveyors and mystic gurus more than reliable sources of scientific information?"

Peter Aczel - The Audio Critic

nomqa.webp.aa713f2bb9e304522011cdb2d2ca907d.webp  R.I.P. MQA 2014-2023: Hyped product thanks to uneducated, uncritical advocates & captured press.

 

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That's fine and a perfectly acceptable position. Personal tastes are whole different thing than High Fidelity.

It's when folks make claims of some component or widget being "better or more accurate to the source" that the supposition will be questioned. Then you need to provide evidence.

Ciao

 

Good point, and I mostly agree. Especially regarding a claim that something is more accurate to the source than something else...

 

I am ok calling something better based on my ears, though.

 

For instance, I have heard the microRendu and have also heard many laptops.

 

I have a hard time believing that Amir's HP laptop could ever be better than the microRendu, if good sound is what you're after (despite what his or anyone else's measurements say).

 

Take care.

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Good point, and I mostly agree. Especially regarding a claim that something is more accurate to the source than something else...

 

I am ok calling something better based on my ears, though.

 

For instance, I have heard the microRendu and have also heard many laptops.

 

I have a hard time believing that Amir's HP laptop could ever be better than the microRendu, if good sound is what you're after (despite what his or anyone else's measurements say).

 

Take care.

Sure but better to you may be horrid to the next guy, strictly a personal preference.

 

As to sound quality I believe Amir's position is that the device introduced no audible change, not that anything sounded any better than anything else.

Any References to "better" were to measured performances.

"The gullibility of audiophiles is what astonishes me the most, even after all these years. How is it possible, how did it ever happen, that they trust fairy-tale purveyors and mystic gurus more than reliable sources of scientific information?"

Peter Aczel - The Audio Critic

nomqa.webp.aa713f2bb9e304522011cdb2d2ca907d.webp  R.I.P. MQA 2014-2023: Hyped product thanks to uneducated, uncritical advocates & captured press.

 

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Hi Chris. Thanks for in depth review. You said recently that you had received some gear from iFi for review. Did the submitted items include a iFi DC iPurifier? If so I wonder if you would be kind enough to put it in series with the iFi iPower PSU supplied with the microRendu and report your findings please? Thanks.

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