Article: Sonore microRendu Review, Part 2

[joelha]

If someone doesn't own the mR, I can understand their concern about someone else's measurements.

 

But if someone does own the mR, enjoys it and reads these measurements, it's a bit like someone telling me the forecast is for no precipitation as I watch a downpour outside.

 

I trust my senses more than my understanding of someone else's measurements.

 

Even if I'm deluding myself, and I'm pretty sure I'm not, I'm enjoying my delusion a great deal.

 

Joel

[jhwalker]

I'm not sure how much is really there. Amir at first made a false measurement and publicized it , even though even he thought it didn't make sense. Later corrected it.

 

As far as I understsand, he tested the mR only in DLNA mode vs. his standard laptop playback.

 

His measurements seem to show:

 

a) mR doesn't improve output in DLNA mode;

b) iFi PS actually adds quite a bit of noise, instead of reducing it;

c)mR is sensitive to PS noise - and he doesn't think it should be if it has regulation and is "improving" the USB signal;

d) using mR with quality PS does show significantly improved performance over laptop playback. Lower noise and distortion.

 

For some reason he seems to criticize the mR based on the performance of the iFi device. He seems to think that since Sonore "recommends" the iFi PS, that it is part of the product.

 

He didn't test the mR in any other mode, including NAA mode. Perhaps that mode yields different results.

 

Actually, he tested later on using Foobar + ASIO and found that even using a linear power supply, the mRendu did nothing but *match* the USB output direct from his laptop; i.e., the final output was virtually identical. It was clear, though, that the iFi power supply add a *lot* of noise into the system, making it 30dB "worse" than direct from the laptop via USB.

[firedog]

If someone doesn't own the mR, I can understand their concern about someone else's measurements.

 

But if someone does own the mR, enjoys it and reads these measurements, it's a bit like someone telling me the forecast is for no precipitation as I watch a downpour outside.

 

I trust my senses more than my understanding of someone else's measurements.

 

Even if I'm deluding myself, and I'm pretty sure I'm not, I'm enjoying my delusion a great deal.

 

Joel

 

Agree. I noted on the other site that I like the mRendu for it's small size, silence, and convenience as far as OS and playback options. I also noted that I prefer the sound of it to the sound coming directly from my server. I find it possible that I'm hearing some kind of euphonic distortion it produces, but like you, if I am, I'm enjoying my delusion.

[Krutsch]

Does anyone care to provide counterpoints to these measurements: Measurements of Sonore microRendu Streamer | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

 

Thanks for sharing that link. Very interesting read; especially the comments the followed, as well as the corrections and re-testing from the author. Refreshing to see that kind of transparency from an audio blogger.

 

His results are interesting when seen through the lens of tests run by Archimego using an ODROID and Volumio 2, with respect to the impact of electrical noise on measured distortion, et al.

[Dev]

Whatever the measurements are, to my ears the uR did improve the performance of my previous setup (caps w/ lps). So I am a bit surprised that the uR did not improve upon the laptop with a better power supply. I am currently using the uR with a LPS and compared it with iFI and 9v battery pack, with the LPS being superior. But before spending more on expensive power supply (Sonore or Uptone), which may or may not improve on what I already have, I am now wondering if there is something better than uR and bigger bang for buck. Looks like the Rednet (AOIP stuff) may be the answer, at least there is a direct comparison with uR available today.

[The Computer Audiophile]

Whatever the measurements are, to my ears the uR did improve the performance of my previous setup (caps w/ lps). So I am a bit surprised that the uR did not improve upon the laptop with a better power supply. I am currently using the uR with a LPS and compared it with iFI and 9v battery pack, with the LPS being superior. But before spending more on expensive power supply (Sonore or Uptone), which may or may not improve on what I already have, I am now wondering if there is something better than uR and bigger bang for buck. Looks like the Rednet (AOIP stuff) may be the answer, at least there is a direct comparison with uR available today.

Be very cautious with the Rednet / AES67 / Ravenna stuff. It's a different animal altogether and may introduce a host of other issue. I'm all for competing technologies, but what I've seen and used in this area has serious issues. Works fine in a studio, but home is another story.

[Dev]

Be very cautious with the Rednet / AES67 / Ravenna stuff. It's a different animal altogether and may introduce a host of other issue. I'm all for competing technologies, but what I've seen and used in this area has serious issues. Works fine in a studio, but home is another story.

 

Chris, can you elaborate a bit more on the issues ? I agree that home audio is a different beast but some folks here seems to have it working flawlessly.

[joelha]

I'd love to know too, Chris, because I'm in the process of hooking one up and want to be aware of any issues I can.

 

Joel

[The Computer Audiophile]

Chris, can you elaborate a bit more on the issues ? I agree that home audio is a different beast but some folks here seems to have it working flawlessly.

 

I'd love to know too, Chris, because I'm in the process of hooking one up and want to be aware of any issues I can.

 

Joel

I should probably jump to the other thread to discuss this rather than derail the current topic.

[timtom]

Which thread? Could you post a link? Thanks!

[The Computer Audiophile]

Which thread? Could you post a link? Thanks!

Here you go - http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f22-networking-networked-audio-and-streaming/focusrite-rednet-28878/

[timtom]

Thanks!

[Dev]

Here you go - http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f22-networking-networked-audio-and-streaming/focusrite-rednet-28878/

 

Did you post the issues that you were talking about ? I would really love to hear.

[Geardaddy]

Thanks for sharing that link. Very interesting read; especially the comments the followed, as well as the corrections and re-testing from the author. Refreshing to see that kind of transparency from an audio blogger.

 

His results are interesting when seen through the lens of tests run by Archimego using an ODROID and Volumio 2, with respect to the impact of electrical noise on measured distortion, et al.

 

Thanks for that link. Very interesting.

 

I do hope that Swenson, inc could provide some technical counterpoints to this thread by Amir. They must have some body of work behind the development of the Rendu. It can't be all audio divination???

[firedog]

Thanks for that link. Very interesting.

 

I do hope that Swenson, inc could provide some technical counterpoints to this thread by Amir. They must have some body of work behind the development of the Rendu. It can't be all audio divination???

 

From what has been written before, most of it is based on listening tests. They (Sonore, Uptone) don't seem to have much in the way of measuring equipment. Don't forget that John is an independent who designs audio in addition to his day job; Uptone is a very small family start-up business, and Sonore is a few people in Florida. Those kinds of businesses are unlikely to spend multiple 5 figures on testing equipment, which is what some of the devices you need to properly test cost. Boutique business with small sales volumes don't have the money for that.

[speshal]

Amateurs with professional equipment drawing conclusions is a dangerous thing.

 

I realize you provided a subjective review, but are you a "professional with professional equipment" that can provide a rebuttal on the measurements? Do you know anyone who can?

 

Isn't the manufacturer a "professional with professional equipment"? If so, it seems like contrary measurements will be provided and/or given to you as "part 3" of your review, correct?

 

Frankly, they should already have the measurements from the design process right? They made some definitive claims about the product lowering noise so I suspect they had to measure that fact right?

 

I do find it harsh and somewhat out of line to call him an amateur, but not provide any "professional" rebuttal yourself. Let others make that judgement based on YOUR superior measurements and analysis. Otherwise, it just looks like sour grapes because his measurements contradicts your review.

 

The company can choose to ignore his measurements and dismiss him too. Or, they can provide a professional rebuttal.

 

I know which option I'd prefer to see, but I guess we'll see.

[latenz]

he chris

is there any sound-difference or impovement between roon (with and without hqplayer) and jriver with local hires files? as i can see this was a part of youre test-setup? or can you describe the sounddifference - would be nice. thanks

 

osx with jriver - nas - mR - mytek brooklyn -

osx with roon - nas - mR - mytek brooklyn or

osx with roon and hqplayer - mR - mytek brooklyn

[The Computer Audiophile]

I realize you provided a subjective review, but are you a "professional with professional equipment" that can provide a rebuttal on the measurements? Do you know anyone who can?

 

Isn't the manufacturer a "professional with professional equipment"? If so, it seems like contrary measurements will be provided and/or given to you as "part 3" of your review, correct?

 

Frankly, they should already have the measurements from the design process right? They made some definitive claims about the product lowering noise so I suspect they had to measure that fact right?

 

I do find it harsh and somewhat out of line to call him an amateur, but not provide any "professional" rebuttal yourself. Let others make that judgement based on YOUR superior measurements and analysis. Otherwise, it just looks like sour grapes because his measurements contradicts your review.

 

The company can choose to ignore his measurements and dismiss him too. Or, they can provide a professional rebuttal.

 

I know which option I'd prefer to see, but I guess we'll see.

Hi Speshal - I hope my comments didn't mislead people into thinking that I am a professional with professional test equipment. I have no such equipment, even less knowledge about running the tests, and very little ability to draw conclusions from testing results.

 

I hope to have some measurements completed by an industry veteran who does this professionally and has designed some of the testing methodology in use today.

[sbank]

Does anyone care to provide counterpoints to these measurements: Measurements of Sonore microRendu Streamer | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

 

This is presented by a dealer. A dealer who sells USB>S/PIDF Converters and often goes to greater lengths than most to talk about himself and his credentials, as he fails to remind the reader that he is a retailer selling older, more expensive technology.

[Distinctive]

This is presented by a dealer. A dealer who sells USB>S/PIDF Converters and often goes to greater lengths than most to talk about himself and his credentials, as he fails to remind the reader that he is a retailer selling older, more expensive technology.

There always seem to be a rationale behind things......

 

I find the '+8dB gain' misunderstanding by the blogger quite hard to digest. There should be some alarm bells ringing before he posted this. Makes me loose my confidence.

[sdolezalek]

As I understand it, Amirm used a test tone to measure the "noise" level of the microrendu and found it to be no better, but also no worse, than his laptop computer. The amount of controversy this seems to have raised makes it sound as though test tone noise is the only measurement that matters.

 

What if the microrendu was same on this noise test, but way better on jitter or on square wave tests or any number of other tests? Couldn't those account for it "sounding better" to many (most) who own one?

 

We seem way to easily swayed by a single measurement, rather than putting it in context as "ok that's a measurement and there will be others and over time they will paint a picture..."

 

What am I missing?

[Priaptor]

I respect anyone going out of their way and spending as much time as they did at the ASR but for me the microRendu rocks.

 

I haven't been home for awhile so I just got it up and running with my main system using it as an NAA to my MSB Diamond Plus. Using Roon-->HQPlayer without any upsampling and without filtering just as a player. In comparison to my optimized CAPS no contest. I measured SPL for the same songs same location between the two with no difference. I am not seeing the 8db thing.

 

Just listened to a few of my favorites and it is like rediscovering my stereo.

 

I can give it my endorsement, for what it's worth (which might not be worth much but it gets my thumbs up)

[Distinctive]

I am not seeing the 8db thing.

This was later admitted being a mistake. Apparently there was a software player volume control in the loop.....

[Priaptor]

This was later admitted being a mistake. Apparently there was a software player volume control in the loop.....

 

Thanks for the clarification. I thought I was missing something during my comparison.

 

This is another one of those relatively "cheap" upgrades that gives tremendous bang for the buck. I am so far very happy with it saddled to the MSB.

[mmerrill99]

As I understand it, Amirm used a test tone to measure the "noise" level of the microrendu and found it to be no better, but also no worse, than his laptop computer. The amount of controversy this seems to have raised makes it sound as though test tone noise is the only measurement that matters.

 

What if the microrendu was same on this noise test, but way better on jitter or on square wave tests or any number of other tests? Couldn't those account for it "sounding better" to many (most) who own one?

 

We seem way to easily swayed by a single measurement, rather than putting it in context as "ok that's a measurement and there will be others and over time they will paint a picture..."

 

What am I missing?

 

You are missing the ineptness of the measurements - publishing a measurement that showed an 8dB amplification by the microRendu, purely digital device. Does he not have any common sense - it makes absolutely no sense & anybody who didn't have an agenda would say hold on a minute that couldn't be right! Worse then this he then went on to claim that those who heard an improvement using the mR was probably down to this 8dB increase in volume - I mean come on!!

 

It has been pointed out that he has a ground loop issue in his measurement setup, likely introduced by the iFi PS & whatever other device is causing the ground noise but he refuses to investigate this.

 

From this strawman he then builds his obviously skewed opinion about the compactness of the device being it's flaw because it can't put in the necessary PS filtering to clear up his ground loop noise seen in his measurements.

 

Again, his bias & lack of technical common sense is in evidence all through that thread while at the same time putting forth the pretense that he represents "the voice of engineering"

 

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