A toast to PGGB, a heady brew of math and magic

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

1 minute ago, ambre said:

Thanks in the " HIDDEN" menu😁. But if you have the possibility to select 32 bits..... is it beter for SQ despite the lager files?

 

For a R2R DAC the answer is easy always 24bits or less. For Delta Sigma DACs It depends you should try both though 32bits may be preferrable.

[Fourlegs]

1 hour ago, mancolh said:

UPDATE:

My tests were done using roon-hqplayer with file on a nuc/rock. I moved the file onto the EX’s ssd and switched the output to MPD. Using Rigelian the file was fed directly from the  ssd to the mpd player on the EX. Transient attack, hidden detail, relaxed. Looks like I will be needing a bigger ssd. 

 That mirrors what I have found with my Antipodes K50 over the weekend. I wasn't using Roon/HQP, just HQP + HQPD to play the PGGB files but I preferred MPD. It was as if a slight veil had been lifted from the sound and in particular I was able to hear much more detail in the texture of the bass notes. As ever it is a YMMV thing but it is worth experimenting.

[kelvinwsy]

Ran some files through 16fs, 32 bit from 44.1khz base files WAV. 

Played the 16fs files through HQPlayer 4.12 PCM 705.6khz output using a NS5, TPD and a variety of the PCM filters. 

Strange sound quality I am getting. The sound stage is very very sensitive to the filters used. Sort of closing in, on the center and depth seems to be flatter...????

My DAC is a Gustard A22 dual AKM4499 dual transformer Class A output stage machine. I set in to Sharp Roll Off...

Not liking what I am hearing ... but still early days. More testing to do. 

I will continue to try 88.2 and 96khz and even 352khz files to see if my 6700k machine can do the heavy upsampling...

 

After a few tunes, I kinda of switched back to my DSD256 ASDM512EC settings which really give glorius some from my 10700k Hqplayer server. The sound stage, depth, focus and detail of vocals, individual instruments, bass punch, skin effect of drums all snapped back into place. 

 

Well still to early to form any definitive findings, but I know my sonic preferences.

 

Processing time on a 6700k running at 4.2ghz 48gb RAM with a 192gb VDISK Page size is about 20minutes for 5 songs -- Really not too bad. But file size is about 11.2gb for 5 numbers of 44.1khz songs.....

 

Kelvin

[kelvinwsy]

Sorry about typo above... I mean glorius sound...

[ted_b]

2 minutes ago, kelvinwsy said:

Ran some files through 16fs, 32 bit from 44.1khz base files WAV. 

Played the 16fs files through HQPlayer 4.12 PCM 705.6khz output using a NS5, TPD and a variety of the PCM filters. 

Kelvin,

Are you saying your DSP'd PGGB files?  You should, instead, set HQP to have no filters, no upsampling, no dither...otherwise you are over-processing.  My $.02 as an HQP user, but not yet tried PGGB (except for some demos Rajiv sent a few months ago at 8fs).

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

4 minutes ago, kelvinwsy said:

Ran some files through 16fs, 32 bit from 44.1khz base files WAV. 

Played the 16fs files through HQPlayer 4.12 PCM 705.6khz output using a NS5, TPD and a variety of the PCM filters. 

Strange sound quality I am getting. The sound stage is very very sensitive to the filters used. Sort of closing in, on the center and depth seems to be flatter...????

When Playing PGGB files your player needs to be in 'bit perfect mode', i.e no processing of any kind. You will need to set HQP Dither to none and also 1x and nx filter to none and if you are not using software volume control then max and min volume in HQP to 0dB

 

PGGB - Zaphod's Guide (remastero.com)

 

[kelvinwsy]

Ohhh no wonder it sounded Weird.... It was all over the place I mean the sonic images.. Will try again with no filter and no dither.. 

See settings - My Bad - I was DSP'ing the 16fs file once more. My BAD!!

 

Will test again. 

Kelvin

[kelvinwsy]

Ok i need a -4db on the maximum volume setting on HQplayer as the Gustard is 4.6V RMS output on the XLR balance mode. My Class A amps need this for a mor sensitive volume setting so that I dont blow my Eardrums out from my HP's.

Anyway I will try to minimize this to -3 db if I can.

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

8 minutes ago, kelvinwsy said:

Ok i need a -4db on the maximum volume setting on HQplayer as the Gustard is 4.6V RMS output on the XLR balance mode. My Class A amps need this for a mor sensitive volume setting so that I dont blow my Eardrums out from my HP's.

Anyway I will try to minimize this to -3 db if I can.

You can set the volume control in PGGB: http://localhost:5050/guide.html#InterSample so set the gain slider for -4dB, then you can use HQP at 0dB. Just be careful,  initially leave HQP at -4dB and gradually increase it to 0dB. 

 

Edit: The actual volume level on HQP does not matter as much, the reason for setting it to 0min 0 max is then HQP will not have to do any processing and that way the noise shaping done by PGGB can be retained.

 

If you have to set volume control in HQP, then set noise shaping 'off' in PGGB, output either 32bit or 64 bit from PGGB and use LNS15 in HQP for dither.

 

The main take away  here is noise shaping should be done only once and it should be the last thing that is done before sending the bits to the DAC.

[davide256]

A request. Is it possible for the program to (a) allow a named default output main directory  (i.e. "PGGB Copy") (b) to create the folder name for whatever is copied under

this directory as a default for processing output ?  Its a bit clunky having to recreate your album directory on copy, would be nice if with license you could select a directory

(i.e. "DSD"), tell it to convert and come back later to find all subfolder naming had been kept, a batch conversion.

 

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

14 minutes ago, davide256 said:

A request. Is it possible for the program to (a) allow a named default output main directory  (i.e. "PGGB Copy") (b) to create the folder name for whatever is copied under

this directory as a default for processing output ?  Its a bit clunky having to recreate your album directory on copy, would be nice if with license you could select a directory

(i.e. "DSD"), tell it to convert and come back later to find all subfolder naming had been kept, a batch conversion.

 

I may be misunderstanding you, but it already  does (b).

 

Regarding a) You can choose the output folder to be a PGGB output root folder, let us say it is you create folder 'PGGB output' which is where all your processed files/folders go. You do this once, choose it as output folder and PGGB remembers it every time. It is not done automatically as PGGB does not know where you wound want it and which folders and drives have  write permission. but you do this only once and get to choose a name and location you prefer.

 

b) Now if you want to process folders and sub folders under 'DSD', in the input you select the DSD folder as input, then the whole folder structure inside DSD will be created in the output folder. If you want 'DSD' folder also then you point to the parent folder of DSD folder. You can try this with trial license too, just add drop one or two tracks into different folders.

 

[Progisus]

1 hour ago, Fourlegs said:

 That mirrors what I have found with my Antipodes K50 over the weekend. I wasn't using Roon/HQP, just HQP + HQPD to play the PGGB files but I preferred MPD. It was as if a slight veil had been lifted from the sound and in particular I was able to hear much more detail in the texture of the bass notes. As ever it is a YMMV thing but it is worth experimenting.

Went back and tried HQPD but stil much prefer MPD. I tried Audirvana from a nas but the files stored on the EX with direct playback (no player involved once started) peovide the best results. One issue... when using MPD and then paused or stopped, there is a high pitched squeal heard until restarted. So far this is just with MPD.

[Fourlegs]

6 minutes ago, mancolh said:

Went back and tried HQPD but stil much prefer MPD. I tried Audirvana from a nas but the files stored on the EX with direct playback (no player involved once started) peovide the best results. One issue... when using MPD and then paused or stopped, there is a high pitched squeal heard until restarted. So far this is just with MPD.

Ah, yes I forgot to tell you about that. My kids (30 and 40 years old) ran into the room to complain. It appears to be at 11,025Hz. I have got Antipodes technical guys looking at what causes it.

 

The answer of course is to play the whole track or album which is what I do until there is a work around but the MPD is much the better sound quality. 

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

43 minutes ago, davide256 said:

A request. Is it possible for the program to (a) allow a named default output main directory  (i.e. "PGGB Copy") (b) to create the folder name for whatever is copied under

this directory as a default for processing output ?  Its a bit clunky having to recreate your album directory on copy, would be nice if with license you could select a directory

(i.e. "DSD"), tell it to convert and come back later to find all subfolder naming had been kept, a batch conversion.

 

In addition to what I had said earlier, PGGB will also let you choose more than one input folder. So, for example if you have two input folders selected:

music\CDs and music\DSDs and if you choose root\PGGB_out as output folder then PGGB will create at the output 

root\PGGB_out\Cds and  root\PGGB_out\DSDs and replicate all the folder structure.

[davide256]

11 hours ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

Make it so 🖖

 

PGGB v1.0.80 now has an option 'FLAC when possible'. The tags and album art will be retained too. By default if the output rate is set to 8FS or lower and the bit depth is set to 24 or lower, output will be as FLAC files. To override see here.

 

As I see disk space as a major concern, I am open to implementing WavPack output format for higher rate files and expect compression down to  30% so one could fit almost three times as many albums. You can try DBpoweramp with PGGB files as DBpoweramp transfers metadata, then see if it works with your setup.. If there is enough interest, I will consider it.

Tried this just now with "The Yes Album" 44/16 version, set max rate to 384/24 and got FLAC. But sound level came out much too low, like a 15db reduction. Did I miss a step?

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

1 minute ago, davide256 said:

Tried this just now with "The Yes Album" 44/16 version, set max rate to 384/24 and got FLAC. But sound level came out much too low, like a 15db reduction. Did I miss a step?

Sorry, I am able to confirm this. Will issue a patch soon. 

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

58 minutes ago, davide256 said:

Tried this just now with "The Yes Album" 44/16 version, set max rate to 384/24 and got FLAC. But sound level came out much too low, like a 15db reduction. Did I miss a step?

 

Thanks for bringing this to my attention, there is patch now, please use v1.0.81

 

v1.0.80 had a bug with 24 bit FLACs, please download 1.0.81

 

[tedwoods]

I'm sure you haven't seen this...😁😂😇

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEv_nmkD9UV1GhomDE5TV8w

[Jean Paul D]

2 hours ago, mancolh said:

Went back and tried HQPD but stil much prefer MPD. I tried Audirvana from a nas but the files stored on the EX with direct playback (no player involved once started) peovide the best results. One issue... when using MPD and then paused or stopped, there is a high pitched squeal heard until restarted. So far this is just with MPD.

what is MPD?

 

[Fourlegs]

6 minutes ago, Jean Paul D said:

what is MPD?

 

Music Player Daemon. It is a Player capable of playing files from a DLNA server. They come pre installed on my Antipodes K50 Server and Player and that is why I tried them.

[Jean Paul D]

I have been listening to 4 PGGB processed to 8fs tracks and their sources this morning, this evening.

 

this morning I considered files as remastered and OK to apply my usual process : HQP output everything as SDM and applied the same filters and 7EC modulator to A & B in A/B

After reading the afternoon remarks I set HQP as bit perfect but that raises several questions when comparing to HQP processes:

level matching?

is it OK then to search for the best matching HQP filter per track for the unprocessed?

doesn't it boil down to compare PCM vs SDM performances of my DAC?

I returned to outputing everything SDM with 128/EXT2/7EC settings in HQP. This was after I listened to a Keith Jarrett Standard 2 track sourced from Japanese SACD from recent German remastering, first PGGBed via "bit perfect" HQP, then via 128/EXT2/7EC HQP and did not find much difference

Actually I did not then hear much difference with the dsf file either.

This is not to dismiss PGGB. Actually if it was a flavor in HQP, I would have picked it and generally preferred the PGGBed files, but not so much so this evening that I consider buying a 64 Gb RAM machine a few weeks after investing in a Mac M1.

I spent less time comparing tonight but I was more indulging, less sensitive to harshness or my ears/brain were in a better mood/shape : even Lana del Rey's Born to Die sounded good loud and so did Neil Young's Hurricane (24/176.4 source).

This morning I was much more sensitive to harshness and ended with strange filter choices such as Sinc L for the 24/44 Lana and mqa mp for Hurricane. This morning I found the PGGBed files (but for the Lana, more carved, detailed but overboard in so doing) more palatable while being unsure of where accuracy lies, made me think of people claiming SDM is too soft and the other party claiming that it is PCM that is edgy. While everything was output SDM HQP processed, the soft tracks were the PGGBed while the ones I might have feared to be dubbed edgy if I was leading a demo were the sources.

Like for the Hozier video there's something in the drumming in the Neil Young with added realness cues when PGGBed and Barenboim's piano from 24/96 source had deep colored left of the keyboard notes that were more charming PGGBed.

That was consistent morning and evening but perceived more faintly this evening.

The most surprising was that I was expecting more details (echoes, recording venue acoustic signature, trails, reverb, etc) while it was the other way round, the presence region being less prominent with PGGBed files.

That test is one more tick in the Pros to get a new DAC with good PCM capability (Holo Spring 3 probably) and I will reevaluate in that context.

that's against what ZB wrote this afternoon but I think that even with a DAC performing better as SDM it's worth keeping one's settings and listen to a PGGB feed

 

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

1 hour ago, Jean Paul D said:

doesn't it boil down to compare PCM vs SDM performances of my DAC?

That is one way to look at it, the best PCM you can provide vs the best SDM you can provide.

 

With 8FS PCM input, the differences are going to be less pronounced in comparison to 16FS, so your findings are not entirely surprising. 

 

Using PCM files from PGGB and processing then using PCM filters in HQP and outputting at the same rate has  no positives to it.

 

What you did is little different, I am not entirely sure how HQP handles PCM to SDM conversion, if it uses 8FS PCM and directly convert it to SDM without downsampling it, then I can see how that can be beneficial. 

 

If you have a M1 Mac with 16GB RAM, then you can use it to process PCM files, DSDs will be harder. This way you may be able to try few more tracks. Also if you are going to use HQP in SDM mode, I will recommend either output 64bit from PGGB or turn off noise shaping. You will have better results.

[Jean Paul D]

1 hour ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

That is one way to look at it, the best PCM you can provide vs the best SDM you can provide.

 

With 8FS PCM input, the differences are going to be less pronounced in comparison to 16FS, so your findings are not entirely surprising. 

 

Using PCM files from PGGB and processing then using PCM filters in HQP and outputting at the same rate has  no positives to it.

 

What you did is little different, I am not entirely sure how HQP handles PCM to SDM conversion, if it uses 8FS PCM and directly convert it to SDM without downsampling it, then I can see how that can be beneficial. 

 

If you have a M1 Mac with 16GB RAM, then you can use it to process PCM files, DSDs will be harder. This way you may be able to try few more tracks. Also if you are going to use HQP in SDM mode, I will recommend either output 64bit from PGGB or turn off noise shaping. You will have better results.

now I regret not picking a 16 GB RAM, only have 8

[mrkoven]

Is there a way 32fs pggb files can conveniently co-exist with HQPe streaming within one library? maybe via euphony stylus?

ideally itd be great if HQPe automatically applies filters when it detects qobuz/tidal, then automatically removes filters when a local file (pggb) is played, etc

[austinpop]

59 minutes ago, mrkoven said:

Is there a way 32fs pggb files can conveniently co-exist with HQPe streaming within one library? maybe via euphony stylus?

ideally itd be great if HQPe automatically applies filters when it detects qobuz/tidal, then automatically removes filters when a local file (pggb) is played, etc

 

Not sure this is possible, unless you make a feature request to HQPe. 

 

Simplest would be to play back PGGB files directly via Stylus, without HQPe in the path.