A toast to PGGB, a heady brew of math and magic

[Progisus]

2 hours ago, mrkoven said:

Is there a way 32fs pggb files can conveniently co-exist with HQPe streaming within one library? maybe via euphony stylus?

ideally itd be great if HQPe automatically applies filters when it detects qobuz/tidal, then automatically removes filters when a local file (pggb) is played, etc

Could you set 1N to filtered and xN to none?

[ted_b]

Not really cuz you’d have dither too

[kelvinwsy]

l a hHave set None on both 1x and Nx filters as well as zero dither on HQPlayer Control Panel

Gustard A22 set to SLow and Slow PCM settings. Sorry No NOS mode on this DAC.

 

Nice effect is that on a High Spec Overclocked PC, the fans just dont come on. That comes with an advantage that one can use a low powered machine to play back the 16fs files. For 32fs it will be still a high spec machine I guess.

 

The SQ is really nice. I can guess 32fs files would be up there against the DSD upsampled files using say HQPlayer. 

Still testing but was so excited I got up at 5AM this morning to reallt try the 16fs files on my system

Intial Findings:

1. Frequency response quite smooth across the audible range. 

2. I do not hear any audible HF or Ultrasonic nasties.  -

3, I find the presence in voices and instruments to be good. 

4. Even on HF dominated music, the music never gets edgy or hot to the hearing.

5. Sound stage is nice, wide and positioning of vocals and instruments is good.

 

Will be experimenting on more  tracks. Highly recommended for those with capable DAC's (16fs and even 32fs), dont want to invest in a super spec PC to upsample and wishes to go fanless without concern about overheating issues.

 

 

[austinpop]

9 hours ago, kelvinwsy said:

l a hHave set None on both 1x and Nx filters as well as zero dither on HQPlayer Control Panel

Gustard A22 set to SLow and Slow PCM settings. Sorry No NOS mode on this DAC.

 

We've received a glowing report from someone with the older brother X26 Pro. Apparently this DAC, while ESS9038Pro based, has a true (claimed) NOS mode, and accepts a 10MHz reference clock. Still only 16FS, but would be an intriguing one to try.

 

9 hours ago, kelvinwsy said:

Nice effect is that on a High Spec Overclocked PC, the fans just dont come on. That comes with an advantage that one can use a low powered machine to play back the 16fs files. For 32fs it will be still a high spec machine I guess.

 

I don't see the A22 supporting 32FS, unless I missed it? So 16FS would be the sweet spot, same as for the X26 Pro.

 

9 hours ago, kelvinwsy said:

The SQ is really nice. I can guess 32fs files would be up there against the DSD upsampled files using say HQPlayer. 

Still testing but was so excited I got up at 5AM this morning to reallt try the 16fs files on my system

Intial Findings:

1. Frequency response quite smooth across the audible range. 

2. I do not hear any audible HF or Ultrasonic nasties.  -

3, I find the presence in voices and instruments to be good. 

4. Even on HF dominated music, the music never gets edgy or hot to the hearing.

5. Sound stage is nice, wide and positioning of vocals and instruments is good.

 

Will be experimenting on more  tracks. Highly recommended for those with capable DAC's (16fs and even 32fs), dont want to invest in a super spec PC to upsample and wishes to go fanless without concern about overheating issues.

 

 

 

Sounds promising!

[austinpop]

On 5/3/2021 at 11:28 PM, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

I am open to implementing WavPack output format for higher rate files

 

Since the DAVE requires 16FS, which makes FLAC not an option, I decided to try WavPack as an experiment. I used dBpoweramp with the following settings:

I tried both Normal and Very High Quality. Both yielded a very nice compression of 65-70% over the original, while all tags were preserved.

 

Functional Issues

I used HQP in my normal "pass-through" mode of "filter=none, dither=none, DAC bits=32." Interestingly, I could drag and drop .wv (wavepack) files to the HQP window, and they played just fine. However, even after an HQP library scan, I could not "see" the .wv files, either via the Browse button on HQP, or via the HQPDControl app. To complete out the puzzling behavior, once I had dragged the .wv file to HQP, it was visible on the HQP playlist, AND HQPDControl could see it too. I need to report this to @Miska on the HQP thread. This was on the latest 4.10.3 Windows version.

 

Listening Impressions

I so very much wanted the wavpack files to sound the same as wav! But alas, I do hear a difference. Is it huge? No, and it still preserves most of the goodness PGGB brings. But if ultimate SQ is what you're going for, stick with WAV. If, on the other hand, storage is holding you back, then wavpack (and the already supported FLAC) could be a very good option.

 

Call to Action

Folks, please convert some wav files to wavpack (using tools like dBpoweramp), and test your music player for functional support, and gauge the sound quality. If enough players support it, it would incent @Zaphod Beeblebrox to add it as an option.

[Jean Paul D]

@Zaphod Beeblebrox If I remember correctly @Miska recommends to output to at least twice the source rate when applying convolution for so called DRC.

Regarding PGGB what is your recommendation ?

Use PGGB, LPSU etc only, to tailor the sound and no DRC?

PGGB up to say 8fs for a 16fs capable DAC and have HQP do the last mile?

Add a new offline step for applying convolution filters? which SW does that, HQP pro?

Use an analog solution ? (ie my Meyer CP10 parametric eQ does marvels but I might opt for digital convolution for the sake of convenience, switching filters on fly rather than fiddling with controls)

Use a digital external eQ box but is there any 32 fs capable?

[Progisus]

I am unable to convert tracks that are approximately longer than 12 minutes.

Macbook Pro 16gb, trial license

input: redbook

output: 16fs 32 bits auto

dac: TT2

 

The process finishes with no visible warnings. The file plays fine but terminates around 12 minutes.

 

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

2 hours ago, mancolh said:

I am unable to convert tracks that are approximately longer than 12 minutes.

Macbook Pro 16gb, trial license

input: redbook

output: 16fs 32 bits auto

dac: TT2

 

The process finishes with no visible warnings. The file plays fine but terminates around 12 minutes.

 

At16fs 32 bits, you hit the maximum size for wav files (4GB) around the 12 minute mark. PGGB splits these files into parts for long tracks. The meta data is preserved and the tracks are numbered correctly so they will play gapless. I have it here in the FAQ section: PGGB - FAQ (remastero.com)

 

Is it possible you did not drag all the processed tracks? You can also email me the logs you find in the output album folder (.log and .csv)

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

6 hours ago, Jean Paul D said:

@Zaphod Beeblebrox If I remember correctly @Miska recommends to output to at least twice the source rate when applying convolution for so called DRC.

Regarding PGGB what is your recommendation ?

Use PGGB, LPSU etc only, to tailor the sound and no DRC?

PGGB up to say 8fs for a 16fs capable DAC and have HQP do the last mile?

Add a new offline step for applying convolution filters? which SW does that, HQP pro?

Use an analog solution ? (ie my Meyer CP10 parametric eQ does marvels but I might opt for digital convolution for the sake of convenience, switching filters on fly rather than fiddling with controls)

Use a digital external eQ box but is there any 32 fs capable?

PGGB is designed to be tuned to your system and I hope you need not have to do the other way around.

 

PGGB does DRC, it is a hidden feature that does not (yet) appear under main controls because I wanted to see a demand for it. You can apply convolution filters in PGGB and typically what this means is you send me the convolution filter, I use it to create a version that is adapted for PGGB, you drop the new filters into a 'Home Path\PGGB\EQ' folder, PGGB will see the filters there and automatically apply DRC. No other software is needed.

 

 

[Progisus]

1 hour ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

At16fs 32 bits, you hit the maximum size for wav files (4GB) around the 12 minute mark. PGGB splits these files into parts for long tracks. The meta data is preserved and the tracks are numbered correctly so they will play gapless. I have it here in the FAQ section: PGGB - FAQ (remastero.com)

 

Is it possible you did not drag all the processed tracks? You can also email me the logs you find in the output album folder (.log and .csv)

I am doing the converting on a Macbook Pro to the internal ssd which is the standard mac format. I placed only a single track in the folder to be converted. I got a 7 gb single track out. This has been the same for three tests of different tracks. I will email you the info when back home. The sound is awesome!

[Fourlegs]

55 minutes ago, mancolh said:

I am doing the converting on a Macbook Pro to the internal ssd which is the standard mac format. I placed only a single track in the folder to be converted. I got a 7 gb single track out. This has been the same for three tests of different tracks. I will email you the info when back home. The sound is awesome!

I found that my computer had problems doing the track/file split for long tracks when they were loose single tracks. With an album here were no issues.

@Zaphod Beeblebrox In fact I have just tried to process a 17 1/2 min track that normally processes just fine when in an album but when it was loose by itself it just left a single wav file in the OUT box and that had a track length of about 12 mins. The batch analysis shows the whole 17 1/2 mins was processed. I can continue by PM.

[Progisus]

3 minutes ago, Fourlegs said:

I found that my computer had problems doing the track/file split for long tracks when they were loose single tracks. With an album here were no issues.

@Zaphod Beeblebrox In fact I have just tried to process a 17 1/2 min track that normally processes just fine when in an album but when it was loose by itself it stopped processing at the 12 min track length.

The first time I noticed this was with a full album - Close to the Edge. I have emailed @Zaphod Beeblebrox the logs and screen shot. 

[ambre]

4 hours ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

Is it correct that HQ-player downsizes 32 bits to 16 bits during PCM playback?

Please see attached picture?

Dear Zaphod 

My Dac Auralic Vega G2.1 can do PCM: 44.1KHz to 384KHz in 32Bit? 

Please your advice.

Thanks in advance, Andreas

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

28 minutes ago, ambre said:

Dear Zaphod 

My Dac Auralic Vega G2.1 can do PCM: 44.1KHz to 384KHz in 32Bit? 

Please your advice.

Thanks in advance, Andreas

Your DAC supports up to 384kHz, 32bits. It could be your settings in HQP, I assume play via USB.

[ambre]

2 minutes ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

Your DAC supports up to 384kHz, 32bits. It could be your settings in HQP, I assume play via USB.

yes via USB I play

[ambre]

3 minutes ago, ambre said:

yes via USB I play

Strange it starts with 24 bits and Lateran =>>16 bits

 

 

[ambre]

13 minutes ago, ambre said:

Strange it starts with 24 bits and Lateran =>>16 bits

 

 

NAA is Mac mini 2014 and use latest NAA-image too

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

16 minutes ago, ambre said:

NAA is Mac mini 2014 and use latest NAA-image too

You will have to take this up with Jussi/HQP, HQP goes by what the DAC advertises, so not sure what the issue is.

[ambre]

Thanks 

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

4 hours ago, mancolh said:

I am doing the converting on a Macbook Pro to the internal ssd which is the standard mac format. I placed only a single track in the folder to be converted. I got a 7 gb single track out. This has been the same for three tests of different tracks. I will email you the info when back home. The sound is awesome!

Thanks for reporting this and for the logs, I just tired a 44 minute track on my Mac book Air (16G RAM), and I see the issue. I will debug this and issue a patch.

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

5 hours ago, mancolh said:

I am doing the converting on a Macbook Pro to the internal ssd which is the standard mac format. I placed only a single track in the folder to be converted. I got a 7 gb single track out. This has been the same for three tests of different tracks. I will email you the info when back home. The sound is awesome!

Found the smoking gun. Patch issued (v1.0.82): PGGB - Offline remastering (remastero.com)

 

It should fix the issue with longer 32bit tracks not playing beyond 12 minutes and broken meta data. Thet tracks were supposed be split at 4Gb but they were not.

[ted_b]

4 hours ago, ambre said:

yes via USB I play

Go to HQPlayer settings and adjust your dac bits from 16 to whatever you want (in output device settings, next to buffer time is dac bits, a pulldown menu)

[Progisus]

3 hours ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

Found the smoking gun. Patch issued (v1.0.82): PGGB - Offline remastering (remastero.com)

 

It should fix the issue with longer 32bit tracks not playing beyond 12 minutes and broken meta data. Thet tracks were supposed be split at 4Gb but they were not.

The fix works perfectly. I needed to use my tagging program to change the track numbers on the file names to match the embedded track numbers for my MPD player. Thanks for all the fish.

[kelvinwsy]

Continuation of PGGB Testing

Doing one on one with Hqplayer DSDEC7 Modulation 

Will report on Stereo soundscape , Bass , Mids And Highs

 

insider joke on the "fish"

"" As the last dolphin disappear b4 tge destruction of Earth to make way for the Pan Galactic Superhighway... they send their last msg which dumb humans thought were excited bleeps and whistles .. Good Luck and Thanks for all the Fish😂😂

[mrkoven]

with holo may, I've been comparing 32fs PGGB to hqp 32fs and dsd256 7ec. dsd is my least favorite personally, sounds too soft, maybe good for low volume listening but not really an engaging toe tapping experience. between hqp and pggb pcm i like pggb more. pggb is more crisp on transients and less hazy on staging. i wouldnt call it night and day, but probably different enough to pick out the pggb in a blind test on familiar tracks. the streaming incompatibility i can live with but the storage size is killer. if what @austinpop mentioned proves true (wavpack lowers SQ a bit) then thats unfortunate. given that network playback is not ideal with this file size, it basically means a 2tb nvme minimum on your server, probably 4-8tb to be safe. 8tb nvme is pretty expensive at the moment.