A toast to PGGB, a heady brew of math and magic

[ASRMichael]

4 minutes ago, JohnA said:

Thanks ZB

 

In real life, does it really sound any different 24bit vs 32bit?

I understand that even 24bit depth is rather optimistic with consumer electronics

I think so! Well does with my DAC

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

16 minutes ago, JohnA said:

Thanks ZB

 

In real life, does it really sound any different 24bit vs 32bit?

I understand that even 24bit depth is rather optimistic with consumer electronics

It is hard to make a generalization.

 

In the case of DAVE which is also a 32bit DAC like Qutest and shares a similar  pipeline, I prefer 32bits to 24bits (based on USB input). It is best to try both and decide the tradeoff between  reduced size and any perceived loss of SQ. 

[feelingears]

On 5/7/2021 at 3:39 PM, ＪｎＬ said:

Or any distortion related caused by the same?? Also can do that? I can't hear Death Magnetic too well, not even from Mastered for iTunes Hi-Res :/

 

OMG, that album is literally the poster child for how terrible digital distortion makes analog distortion sound, even after so many years since its release! I found some remastered bootlegs that apparently came from the Guitar Hero game where for whatever reason the mastering wasn't brickwalled. So funny that so many people would likely pay again, and maybe even more, for a properly mastered version of that album. (I would.)

 

Anyway, so cool this PGGB tech was birthed here on AS and many thanks to all involved in this - can't wait to try it out soon. Thank you thank you!

 

[ambre]

On 5/3/2021 at 8:05 PM, ambre said:

I have a Auralic Vega G2.1 Streaming DAC with Lighting app and use MinimServer for files located on HD disks/NAS. 

 

PCM: 44.1KHz to 384KHz in 32Bit 
I am really surprised. 

 

Dear Zaphod,

 

Many Redbook recordings, 192 kHz and especially DSD 64 and 128 files  sound much better than normal streaming Qobuz or local files. The Gargle blaster adds/ corrects a lot. Amazing.🤓😍

 

Tried also on usb direct input HQPlayer 4.0 again. Ps. Without any usb reclocker like IsoRegen, Mutec Mc 3 etc.  Strange enough I could only sent 32 PGGB as 24 bits with HqPlayer 4.0 to my Auralic Vega G 2.1 ?
 

And for  unclear reasons the NAA functionality (Mac mini with latest distro from Jussy)  did not work properly …..could only sent 32 bit to 16 bits PCM and SDM wasn’t available on macOS NAA. Tried different Mac mini’s but still not resolved. Have asked Jussy in NAA thread for some assistance. 

 

But my STREAMING DAC sounds via Ethernet much better than direct connected via USB.

Ps. Use an UPTONE EtherRegen, with Afterdark Master Clock and multiple switches upfront.

 

Best regards, Andreas

 

@Mischa

[ajm]

Would be interested in trying PGGB but I don't currently own a suitable PC to run it as I use low powered audiolinux server & endpoint with Mscaler & DAVE. I am hesitant to purchase a new high powered PC just for this purpose as I may not find the results to my liking.

Are there any test files for processed audio?

 

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

For those with space constraints, version 1.1.00 is now available that supports FLAC and Wavpack lossless compressed output formats.

 

 

 

[Fourlegs]

9 hours ago, ajm said:

Would be interested in trying PGGB but I don't currently own a suitable PC to run it as I use low powered audiolinux server & endpoint with Mscaler & DAVE. I am hesitant to purchase a new high powered PC just for this purpose as I may not find the results to my liking.

Are there any test files for processed audio?

 

If you wish, drop me a PM and we can arrange for you to send me some test tracks and I will PGGB process them and return them to you. 

[ajm]

Dear Nick,

 

That's really kind and as a member of the WAVE Storm fraternity, I will be pleased to take you up on this for a couple of tracks.

From what I have learned, it seems as though some older Red Book recordings might be the ones to try. I suppose, things that have seemed much improved with MScaler (although I haven't done much testing with and without because the early impression was so beneficial - I'm amazed at some of the comments on HeadFi).

 

I'm mainly a classical listener so the sort of things I wondered about are

Vaughan Williams Tallis fantasia, Silvestri version

Ending of Mahler 8, Solti CSO

 

I also found that in some cases of Cochereau and Dupre organ recordings, these were transformed from something painful to an enjoyable experience by DAVE/ MScaler.

 

Conscious of the fact that with a test of this sort, one may not readily hit on a revelatory example, I don't know whether anyone

would comment on whether these are sensible!

 

Andrew

[Gavin1977]

@ajmwould be interesting to hear your thought on the effect of pushing PGGB files through the MScaler as well.

 

I’m also able to put some test tracks for you if you like.

[ajm]

Many thanks. I had thought PGGB'd files were only intended for playing direct to DAC but perhaps some of the original users may comment on this.

[Gavin1977]

18 minutes ago, ajm said:

Many thanks. I had thought PGGB'd files were only intended for playing direct to DAC but perhaps some of the original users may comment on this.

That is true, but would be interesting to see what the sound differences are if you feed them through the mscaler

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

2 hours ago, Gavin1977 said:

@ajmwould be interesting to hear your thought on the effect of pushing PGGB files through the MScaler as well.

 

I’m also able to put some test tracks for you if you like.

It is best to avoid playing through M-Scalar as M-Scalar will noise shape 32 bit files to 24bits before sending it out via dual BNC. If you had to try, I suggest setting Mscalar to pass through and using 24bit noise shaped output from PGGB. 

[Fourlegs]

 

1 minute ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

It is best to avoid playing through M-Scalar as M-Scalar will noise shape 32 bit files to 24bits before sending it out via dual BNC. If you had to try, I suggest setting Mscalar to pass through and using 24bit noise shaped output from PGGB. 

 

ZB, using the Mscaler on pass through might of course be an interesting concept because it would enable feeding the hires PGGB files to the Dave via dual BNC which might have some advantages for the Dave instead of using USB. I guess that means it is time to experiment . . . . .

[LowOrbit]

19 minutes ago, Fourlegs said:

 

 

ZB, using the Mscaler on pass through might of course be an interesting concept because it would enable feeding the hires PGGB files to the Dave via dual BNC which might have some advantages for the Dave instead of using USB. I guess that means it is time to experiment . . . . .

Done that - sounds great🙂

[MarkusBarkus]

@LowOrbitthat was at 24bit via FishScaler to Dave? Cheers...

[Gavin1977]

1 hour ago, Fourlegs said:

 

 

ZB, using the Mscaler on pass through might of course be an interesting concept because it would enable feeding the hires PGGB files to the Dave via dual BNC which might have some advantages for the Dave instead of using USB. I guess that means it is time to experiment . . . . .

Yep my thoughts exactly

[Fourlegs]

21 minutes ago, MarkusBarkus said:

@LowOrbitthat was at 24bit via FishScaler to Dave? Cheers...

I will be specifically processing at 24bit in PGGB in order to output through the FishScaler in pass through mode to Dave.
 

This will be fun to try and also will make life easy for using the FishScaler for streamed music as well as locally stored non PGGB files. 

[chrille]

20 minutes ago, Fourlegs said:

I will be specifically processing at 24bit in PGGB in order to output through the FishScaler in pass through mode to Dave.
 

This will be fun to try and also will make life easy for using the FishScaler for streamed music as well as locally stored non PGGB files. 

Hello Fourlegs,and thanks a LOT for helping me try out PGGB.

 

This being my first post here in a long, long time,I have honestly been quite happily enjoying my music Mscaled,but  now I have quite a few questions to ask seasoned Gargleblasters here.

But the first would be to ask  two-headed monster himself  unless his girlfriend has just left him and he is unhappy again,or why not Romaz? to upload an all acoustic with absolutely  NO amplified instruments synths or other such things involved, recording both native and "Gargleblasted" for those of us very curious but who still don´t have a laptop capable of processing files.

 Romaz,if copyright might be a problem,why not sit down at your piano, record something for us and upload it here?

I can play 32/705 and in the case of the test track 186M easily on my old  late 2011 MBP via Audirvana with  quite interesting results judging from the 4 minutes  I have so far heard "gargle-blasted" via Qutest direct and USB and also via Mscaler  in pass through.

Second question: What is needed on the mac platform.High Sierra is not enough I gather?

Would a beefed up recent Macbook Air be enough? Or will I have to get an all new MBP?

On the PGGB  site 16 gigabyte ram is stated as enough to process 16/44.1 files but I have loads of hi res masters ranging from 24/96 to DXD and DSD masters.

Would 16 gigabyte RAM still be enough to process native files that sometimes "pre-gargled" are already 3 gigabyte? 

And what about Wavpack to save space can it be unpacked during playback like flac?

Or is it lossy?

I have lots of 24 bit flac files as downloads, but I always unpack ,well actually convert  those to Wave or AIFF before playback.

Some of my hi res Opera recordings are already 3-4 gig.

No problem for Mscaler  to handle but the size of some of those gargled -blasted makes me wonder if I´ll need a separate trolly for my hardrives if I go ahead with this?

Nuff said for the time being, from me, but my appetite has definitely  been whetted for more.

Cheers Chrille 

[chrille]

6 hours ago, ajm said:

Dear Nick,

 

That's really kind and as a member of the WAVE Storm fraternity, I will be pleased to take you up on this for a couple of tracks.

From what I have learned, it seems as though some older Red Book recordings might be the ones to try. I suppose, things that have seemed much improved with MScaler (although I haven't done much testing with and without because the early impression was so beneficial - I'm amazed at some of the comments on HeadFi).

 

I'm mainly a classical listener so the sort of things I wondered about are

Vaughan Williams Tallis fantasia, Silvestri version

Ending of Mahler 8, Solti CSO

 

I also found that in some cases of Cochereau and Dupre organ recordings, these were transformed from something painful to an enjoyable experience by DAVE/ MScaler.

 

Conscious of the fact that with a test of this sort, one may not readily hit on a revelatory example, I don't know whether anyone

would comment on whether these are sensible!

 

Andrew

While I agree with you regarding Mscaling analogue masters they will still be limited SQ wise compared to a modern hi res recording imho.

Tape hiss will also  still be a problem compared to a good  modern hi res recording.

But the Puccini Boheme DECCA/ Karajan/ cd I played last night, mscaled beat my LP version.

 

 

Cheers Chrille

[LowOrbit]

1 hour ago, MarkusBarkus said:

@LowOrbitthat was at 24bit via FishScaler to Dave? Cheers...

PGGB Files @32 bit into MSCaler pass through over dual BNC into Dave (Wave Stratos cables).

 

Maybe encoding from PGGB at 24 bit would be more elegant but I was just too lazy to move the USB B-end to the Dave from the Scaler😁

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

15 minutes ago, chrille said:

But the first would be to ask  two-headed monster himself  unless his girlfriend has just left him and he is unhappy again,or why not Romaz? to upload an all acoustic with absolutely  NO amplified instruments synths or other such things involved, recording both native and "Gargleblasted" for those of us very curious but who still don´t have a laptop capable of processing files.

 Romaz,if copyright might be a problem,why not sit down at your piano, record something for us and upload it here?

It would be best to choose 5 tracks you are most familiar with and either me or someone here with PGGB can gargle-blast them for you. 

21 minutes ago, chrille said:

Second question: What is needed on the mac platform.High Sierra is not enough I gather?

The limitation is due to Matlab's runtime that requires Mojave (10.14) or higher.

23 minutes ago, chrille said:

Would a beefed up recent Macbook Air be enough? Or will I have to get an all new MBP?

On the PGGB  site 16 gigabyte ram is stated as enough to process 16/44.1 files but I have loads of hi res masters ranging from 24/96 to DXD and DSD masters.

I have a Macbook Air M1 but they are still limited to 16GB RAM, it would be ok for trail but if you plan tot gargle-blast your library I would recommend something more beefy. You may be able to try even DSD and DXD if you drop the mas taps to 128M to where your Mac can handle it.

26 minutes ago, chrille said:

Would 16 gigabyte RAM still be enough to process native files that sometimes "pre-gargled" are already 3 gigabyte? 

That is a tough one on 16GB as Macs don't let you allocate swap space, and you will have to try to reduce the max taps till your Mac can handle it. It is best to use the trial version to figure what works for you.

29 minutes ago, chrille said:

And what about Wavpack to save space can it be unpacked during playback like flac?

Yes and it depends on the player. Jriver, and HQplayer can handle Wavpack. Roon and A+ don't. PGGB uses lossless wavpack, though wavpack also supports lossy.

 

32 minutes ago, chrille said:

No problem for Mscaler  to handle but the size of some of those gargled -blasted makes me wonder if I´ll need a separate trolly for my hardrives if I go ahead with this?

Yes space can be an issue and I use 12TB of NVME drive on my server.

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

14 minutes ago, LowOrbit said:

PGGB Files @32 bit into MSCaler pass through over dual BNC into Dave (Wave Stratos cables).

 

Maybe encoding from PGGB at 24 bit would be more elegant but I was just too lazy to move the USB B-end to the Dave from the Scaler😁

MScalar will not 'pass through' they get noise shaped by Mscalar as the dual BNC cannot handle more than 24 bits at 16FS. PGGB already outputs noise shaped to 32bits and being noise shaped again by MScalar will not be optimal. But you can turn that off and allow Mscalar to do the noise shaping if you wish. For best results I will recommend noise shaping to 24bits or 2). gargle-blast at 32 bits without noise shaping  if going through Mscalar.

[austinpop]

7 hours ago, ajm said:

Ending of Mahler 8, Solti CSO

 

An excellent album, and one of my all-time favorites! There is actually a 24/96 version that does improve on the Redbook. This is one of those rare albums where you want to use the "combine" feature of PGGB (https://www.remastero.com/guide.html#Combine). Since you have this album, you know that it has 16 tracks, but in terms of continuity, tracks 1-6 and 7-16 are contiguous. When I process this, I use the combine feature to combine these into 2 longer tracks. This does take more memory, but man, is it worth it! The resulting combined tracks 1-6 gets processed at 1029M taps, and tracks 7-16 (over an hour long) at 2478M taps.

 

But back to the demo. Scrounge around your computers... you sure you don't have one that has (or can be upgraded to) 16MB? If so, you can easily gargle-blast a short Redbook track like track 14 (Neige Neige) or track 15 (Blicket auf).

[austinpop]

 

3 hours ago, Fourlegs said:

ZB, using the Mscaler on pass through might of course be an interesting concept because it would enable feeding the hires PGGB files to the Dave via dual BNC which might have some advantages for the Dave instead of using USB. I guess that means it is time to experiment . . . . .

 

Nick, don't forget the HMS still has its own Amanero USB controller in the path, and if you're sending a 16FS stream to the HMS, then you're still incurring the same Amanero latency as the DAVE.

 

IMO, the simplest test, for people with HMS'es who want to trial PGGB, is to compare (let's assume a Rebook sample track (16/1FS)):

1. PGGB 32/16FS > USB > DAVE
2. Native 16/1FS > USB > HMS > DBNC > DAVE

This will tell you enough to decide if you want to explore PGGB further.

 

For those looking to dig deeper, I would submit that a battery of tests needs to be run to tease these concepts apart. Ideally, you would want to try all of these:

1. PGGB 32/16FS > USB > DAVE
2. Native 16/1FS > USB > HMS > DBNC > DAVE
3. PGGB 24/16FS > USB > DAVE (24-bit stream gets zero-padded to 32-bit, as Amanero requires 32-bit)
4. PGGB 24/16FS > USB > HMS > DBNC > DAVE (potential benefit of the HMS's galvanically isolated USB, but adds complexity, DBNC etc)
5. PGGB 32/16FS > USB > HMS > DBNC > DAVE (dual noise shaping, as HMS noise shapes PGGB 32-bit stream to 24-bit)
6. PGGB 32/16FS (no NS) > USB > HMS > DBNC > DAVE (some precision loss in PGGB, going from 64-bit float to 32-bit int with no noise shaping)

I did some of these comparisons early during the development of PGGB, when I was deciding whether to keep or sell the HMS. Don't get me wrong — I love the HMS, and ideally I would have kept it, but I was looking to mitigate the very large expense of buying my Extreme. So my results were:

• 1 vs. 2: clearly, I found 1 better, and it has continued to improve, which is why I sold my HMS.
• 1 vs. 3: it's been a while since I did this test, but for me, 1 sounded better. Since Amanero is forcing 32-bits at the USB boundary anyway, there seems to be a small SQ benefit to putting higher precision 32-bit data there, instead of zero-padded 24-bit data. 

I have never run 4,5, and 6, but look forward to results if others are motivated to give it a go.

[kennyb123]

5 hours ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

It is best to avoid playing through M-Scalar as M-Scalar will noise shape 32 bit files to 24bits before sending it out via dual BNC. 

Agree with this.  M-Scaler on pass-through robbed the music of a good chunk of the PGGB magic in my system.