A toast to PGGB, a heady brew of math and magic

[ambre]

Hi All,

 

I have a Auralic Vega G2.1 Streaming DAC with Lighting app and use MinimServer for files located on disks/NAS. 

 

·     PCM: 44.1KHz to 384KHz in 32Bit

·      DSD: DSD64(2.8224MHz), DSD128(5.6448MHz), DSD256(11.2896MHz), DSD512(22.57892MHz).

      And four preset filter modes.

 

Converted several good recordings like Graceland (96Khz), Bruce Springsteen Letter for You (96Khz), Dark Side of the Moon(44,1Khz), Ocean Boulevard (DSD 64) etc. by means of the trail version of PGGM MAC. 

 

I did not have any kind of expectations but I am really surprised.  It sounds (much) better that my original recordings. Also tested it with streaming Hires Qobuz so far as available otherwise the Redbook versions.  No doubt PGGM was more revolving, more space….. PRAT.  Ps. I am streaming via a Master Clocked EtherRegen and several daisy chained switches upfront. 

 

I will do several other new  tests with Transparency, Presentation and HF Noise Filters setting and the 4 preset Auralic filters which sounds best.

I am really surprised. 

 

Due to fact that my Auralic Vega 2.1 has a separate Analog input I am looking for an affordable NOS Dac up to 768 Khz or higher. Price <= €1500.  For the time being I like to avoid the HQ Player & USB train.😇

Please your advice.

 

Best regards, Andreas

 

[austinpop]

28 minutes ago, davide256 said:

Doesn't defeat it completely since a well mastered HDCD (44/20) recording improved.

Hi David,

 

Just try it both ways (with/without DDC in the path) and see what you think.

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

22 minutes ago, ambre said:

 

Hi All,

 

I have a Auralic Vega G2.1 Streaming DAC with Lighting app and use MinimServer for files located on disks/NAS. 

 

·     PCM: 44.1KHz to 384KHz in 32Bit

·      DSD: DSD64(2.8224MHz), DSD128(5.6448MHz), DSD256(11.2896MHz), DSD512(22.57892MHz).

      And four preset filter modes.

 

Converted several good recordings like Graceland (96Khz), Bruce Springsteen Letter for You (96Khz), Dark Side of the Moon(44,1Khz), Ocean Boulevard (DSD 64) etc. by means of the trail version of PGGM MAC. 

 

I did not have any kind of expectations but I am really surprised.  It sounds (much) better that my original recordings. Also tested it with streaming Hires Qobuz so far as available otherwise the Redbook versions.  No doubt PGGM was more revolving, more space….. PRAT.  Ps. I am streaming via a Master Clocked EtherRegen and several daisy chained switches upfront. 

 

I will do several other new  tests with Transparency, Presentation and HF Noise Filters setting and the 4 preset Auralic filters which sounds best.

I am really surprised. 

 

Due to fact that my Auralic Vega 2.1 has a separate Analog input I am looking for an affordable NOS Dac up to 768 Khz or higher. Price <= €1500.  For the time being I like to avoid the HQ Player & USB train.😇

Please your advice.

 

Best regards, Andreas

 

Perhaps consider Gustard X26 Pro,  based on ESS 9038 Pro in NOS mode (16FS/32bits). It benefits from PGGB.

[ambre]

Just now, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

Perhaps consider Gustard X26 Pro,  based on ESS 9038 Pro in NOS mode (16FS/32bits). It benefits from PGGB.

Thanks Zaphod, 

 

Will have a look.  For the time being I like to avoid the HQ Player & USB train I have said earlier.

 

Of course I will need HQ-player again and do hope that a new NAA doesn't give the same connection issues as with Allo UsBridge and Mini PC X64 namely loosing connection as I switched inputs on my Auralic? 

Best regards, Andreas

[dmance]

I ran out of space in Dropbox for my posted PGGB'd music videos link. Use this Google Drive link here.

Thanks,

Dan

 

 

[Miska]

2 hours ago, dmance said:

In 2019 I prodded Jussi L. to push the envelope with his HQPlayer PCM filters and noise shapers to meet or exceed MScaler sound quality. His 2M tap Sinc-L filter and 15th order LNS15 noise shaper then became my reference for up-sampling.

 

You are anyway better off with poly-sinc-ext2, sinc-S or sinc-M... Because sinc-L is non-apodizing. Note that sinc-M and sinc-L are totally different kind of filters, with nothing in common. Difference in number of taps between sinc-M and sinc-L is irrelevant detail.

 

[bbosler]

For closure in case anybody is interested.. I'm done with my evaluation of PGGB. I tried various files

 

• converted to 16FS then USB >>> DDC >>> I2S >>> Terminator +  (DDC won't do 32FS)
• converted to 32FS then  USB >>> Terminator + 

 

to me,  better than native but no better than using HQP on the fly so I'm sticking with HQP. I certainly don't hear the dramatic , game changing improvements others report. Couple that with all of the  hassles of dealing with the conversions and especially the fact that most of the digital I listen to is streaming from Tidal and Qobuz so would need to start buying those files and it is a no-brainer for me.

 

glad to hear others are getting such good results and appreciate all of the effort going in to pushing the envelope. 

[austinpop]

5 hours ago, Jean Paul D said:

From your own FAQ : "What if a song is composed of many 30 second recordings that all got digitized and mixed together? Any tap length more than 30 seconds would be using bad information. "

 

Not to mention an artist (ie Bjork) recording her voice in her bedroom and then completing the track in 3 different studios, even a classical movement is more often than the other way round made of splices of different takes. Seems to me that without knowledge there's a risk of doing serious harm in many cases with modern digital productions. 

 

Of course, analog tapes digitized in one effort escape that risk.

 

A question : I would be thankful to know how you define short length in the following (reference to HQP filters would help me digging ) "For the above reason, for short lengths, minimum phase have a significant advantage over linear phase filters. " 

 

Hi Jean Paul,

 

In practice, I have not run into any album/track where this was an issue. I've PGGBed hundreds of albums now, mostly classical, followed by prog rock, jazz, and a smattering of others. I've yet to hear a case where the PGGBed track sounded weird, nor one where it sounded worse than the original. 

 

Naturally, YMMV, so I'd say just try it and judge for yourself with your favorite tracks.

[ambre]

Hallo Zaphod, 

 

I have converted the album Miles Davis a tribute to Jack Johnson 2 files  each approx. 1.2 Gb.

It took more than an hour to convert n to 352. Ps. Both files are now approx. 4.4 Gb. 

 

On Mac mini 2020 Intel 6 Core I7 / 32 Gb mem.

 

Other albums/ tracks ( max. 5) was 5-10 minutes. Converting to DSD is much more labor intensive?

 

Regards Andreas

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

1 hour ago, ambre said:

Hallo Zaphod, 

 

I have converted the album Miles Davis a tribute to Jack Johnson 2 files  each approx. 1.2 Gb.

It took more than an hour to convert n to 352. Ps. Both files are now approx. 4.4 Gb. 

 

On Mac mini 2020 Intel 6 Core I7 / 32 Gb mem.

 

Other albums/ tracks ( max. 5) was 5-10 minutes. Converting to DSD is much more labor intensive?

 

Regards Andreas

Yes DSDs are more intense and if you notice the Tap count they can hit 1B or 2B. 

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

3 hours ago, ambre said:

Thanks Zaphod, 

 

Will have a look.  For the time being I like to avoid the HQ Player & USB train I have said earlier.

 

Of course I will need HQ-player again and do hope that a new NAA doesn't give the same connection issues as with Allo UsBridge and Mini PC X64 namely loosing connection as I switched inputs on my Auralic? 

Best regards, Andreas

Ha I missed that, Gustard has IIS input that will accept 16FS

[ambre]

3 hours ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

Ha I missed that, Gustard has IIS input that will accept 16FS

Hi Zaphod,

 

Also USB : PCM up to 32bit 768kHz, Native DSD up to DSD512, DSD DoP up to DSD256, MQA

 

😀

[ambre]

4 minutes ago, ambre said:

Hi Zaphod,

 

Also USB : PCM up to 32bit 768kHz, Native DSD up to DSD512, DSD DoP up to DSD256, MQA

 

😀

And it has 10mhz master clock input too 😄😄😇

[Jean Paul D]

6 hours ago, dmance said:

I ran out of space in Dropbox for my posted PGGB'd music videos link. Use this Google Drive link here.

Thanks,

Dan

 

 

Will report tomorrow hopefully on pure audio tracks compared to HQP on my system but yet, through my laptop speakers, there is something good in the opening drumming of the Hozier video I did not get when I found and played the regular youtube 

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

@dmance Thanks for the feedback. 

 

11 hours ago, dmance said:

I set PGGB upsampling to 705.6/768 16fs and bit depth to 24-bits ... because that's what I used with HQPlayer and it's what MScaler's DBNC interface is. I use SRC-DX USB-to-DBNC bridge to avoid USB noise so I have not tried a 32bit file direct via USB. However, I believe USB’s 32bits is truncated to 24 at the DAVE’s signal interface anyhow.

 

DAVE's USB interface will not truncate to 24bits but 32bits 16fs to Mscalar will be truncated and noise shaped to 24 bits via DBNC input to DAVE. 32bits via USB direct to DAVE will have an advantage over 24bit direct to DAVE via USB. Since you are effectively bypassing DAVEs USB by using your bridge, it will be interesting to compare that with 32bits direct to DAVE via USB, both at 16FS rates.

 

11 hours ago, dmance said:

I'd like to ask ZB to report on any round-trip analysis: like redbook upconversion to a float output (WAV 32 Float?) followed by downconversion to the original.

I will think about it, but to be a valid comparison, I need to use non apodizing filters. It will never be perfect, unperceivable perhaps yes.

 

11 hours ago, dmance said:

. Monkeys Audio is a great lossless compression program that maintains all WAV metadata. (here) and MC is a champion with full support.  I converted all my PGGB'd .WAV files to .APE for seamless playback via MC.  I was seeing 25-30% file sizes.

 WavPack is another option with similar compression performance, DBpoweramp will transfer all tags. I may support WavPack in the future if there is enough interest. HQP supports Wavpack but I have not tried it  with Wavpack myself.

 

11 hours ago, dmance said:

I’m sure not every users audio setup is geared for video playback -> to a nice monitor and audio playback -> to a DAC ...but mine is. I’ve remixed PGGB’d WAV audio from a few 4K YouTube clips into MKV multiplexed video files. The results dramatically increase the feeling of being present : 4K video with 16fs remastered audio in perfect sync is amazing. For those interested, I have three clips being downloaded here (usage under fair use). You will need JRiver MC for playback of these files. Note that local audio playback will down-convert the audio to typically 48k so make sure MC is setup properly to preserve the full resolution PCM bitstream to your DAC.

This is really cool, I have not yet tried the videos, but I will. I have MC and regularly use it to route EQd 5.1ch Netflix audio through DAVE and Lynx Hilo.

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

11 hours ago, dmance said:

I’m also quite satisfied with the performance; however, I would like more descriptive status ...especially during periods of inactivity and, on launch, the long delay between the disappearance of the startup screen and appearance of GUI interface regularly had me concerned that PGGB had crashed.

 

The startup time varies and it is the time the runtime takes to loads, since I have to work within the the constraints of what Matlab MCR offers, I am unable to control how long the splash screen appears, this has been a long requested feature.

 

The more descriptive status on the other hand is doable, you v=can mail e some examples of where you think it may help.

[Progisus]

Thanks for the trial. In my system (Antipodes EX, HQPlayer, TT2, Utopia, iem’s) the sinc-L  filter and 705/768 give similar results. Real time conversion may change this as streaming will be in play. It is good to see more alternatives to the mscaler.

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

On 5/2/2021 at 7:42 PM, austinpop said:

Now that folks are finding that PGGB is beneficial with 4FS and 8FS DACs, it makes sense to perhaps offer a "Output compressed FLAC if possible" option, so that for these DACs, users can create much smaller remastered files (no bigger than commercial 4FS and 8FS (DXD) files), that could reduce the network and memory pressure of the kind @davide256mentions above. 

 

I mentioned this idea to ZB, and I could sense the wheels were turning.  

Make it so 🖖

 

PGGB v1.0.80 now has an option 'FLAC when possible'. The tags and album art will be retained too. By default if the output rate is set to 8FS or lower and the bit depth is set to 24 or lower, output will be as FLAC files. To override see here.

 

As I see disk space as a major concern, I am open to implementing WavPack output format for higher rate files and expect compression down to  30% so one could fit almost three times as many albums. You can try DBpoweramp with PGGB files as DBpoweramp transfers metadata, then see if it works with your setup.. If there is enough interest, I will consider it.

[Progisus]

8 hours ago, mancolh said:

Thanks for the trial. In my system (Antipodes EX, HQPlayer, TT2, Utopia, iem’s) the sinc-L  filter and 705/768 give similar results. Real time conversion may change this as streaming will be in play. It is good to see more alternatives to the mscaler.

UPDATE:

My tests were done using roon-hqplayer with file on a nuc/rock. I moved the file onto the EX’s ssd and switched the output to MPD. Using Rigelian the file was fed directly from the  ssd to the mpd player on the EX. Transient attack, hidden detail, relaxed. Looks like I will be needing a bigger ssd. 

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

20 hours ago, ASRMichael said:

To a layman like myself... My DAC can do 384khz max. So why does PGGB convert to 352khz? And what is Integers. 

PGGB is designed to do sample-rate conversions within the same rate family. i.e., if your input is 44.1kHz, it will only do multiples of 44.1kHz so 8 x 44.1kHz is 352kHz, similarly multiples of 48kHz will be converted to 384kHz. PGGB uses is a single step conversion process using very long filters. While it is technically possible to convert44.1khz  to 384kHz, doing so with the very long filters will be a whole lot more time consuming, it will have to be multi-stage and multi-stage filtering also involves some SQ compromises. All these factors together outweigh any benifits of the slightly increased output rate.

 

 

[ambre]

8 hours ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

 

PGGB v1.0.80 now has an option 'FLAC when possible'.

Dear Zaphod, Where can I find this option in the latest MAC version?

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

7 minutes ago, ambre said:

Dear Zaphod, Where can I find this option in the latest MAC version?

Download: PGGB - Offline remastering (remastero.com)

 

There are tow ways to get the latest version, the download button at the top right had corner or if you click the download button under updates. Both will take you to the download area with he latest release.

[ambre]

Just now, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

Download: PGGB - Offline remastering (remastero.com)

 

There are tow ways to get the latest version, the download button at the top right had corner or if you click the download button under updates. Both will take you to the download area with he latest release.

Already done but cannot find option  option 'FLAC when possible'.

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

4 minutes ago, ambre said:

Already done but cannot find option  option 'FLAC when possible'.

 

It is on by default, see my original post below and on how to override using the hidden menu. Or go here: https://www.remastero.com/guide.html#Hidden

 

Edit: On Mac, you just click on the Green cocktail image to see the menu

 

8 hours ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

PGGB v1.0.80 now has an option 'FLAC when possible'. The tags and album art will be retained too. By default if the output rate is set to 8FS or lower and the bit depth is set to 24 or lower, output will be as FLAC files. To override see here.

 

 

[ambre]

Just now, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

 

It is on by default, see my original post below and on how to override using the hidden menu. Or go here: https://www.remastero.com/guide.html#Hidden

 

 

Thanks in the " HIDDEN" menu😁. But if you have the possibility to select 32 bits..... is it beter for SQ despite the lager files?