Miska Posted May 15, 2021 Share Posted May 15, 2021 On 5/14/2021 at 12:16 AM, ambre said: could only sent 32 bit to 16 bits PCM and SDM wasn’t available on macOS NAA DoP enabled as SDM Pack in HQPlayer settings? Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers Link to comment
LowOrbit Posted May 15, 2021 Share Posted May 15, 2021 1 hour ago, kennyb123 said: Agree with this. M-Scaler on pass-through robbed the music of a good chunk of the PGGB magic in my system. And in mine I preferred having the HMS in the path. But I haven't done the exhaustive testing and comparisons others here clearly have. For now PGGB is a curio for me rather than a definite path as it does not provide an easy route for treating Qobuz streams, which is key for me and why I am focussing on the Dave/HMS and extracting as much performance as I can from those elements. To date I haven't heard enough "improvement" from PGGB to offest the considerable inconvenience adopting this as a core technology would entail for me. Link to comment
Popular Post Progisus Posted May 15, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted May 15, 2021 40 minutes ago, LowOrbit said: And in mine I preferred having the HMS in the path. But I haven't done the exhaustive testing and comparisons others here clearly have. For now PGGB is a curio for me rather than a definite path as it does not provide an easy route for treating Qobuz streams, which is key for me and why I am focussing on the Dave/HMS and extracting as much performance as I can from those elements. To date I haven't heard enough "improvement" from PGGB to offest the considerable inconvenience adopting this as a core technology would entail for me. The improvement of 16fs 32 into my TT2 is quite profound. HQPlayer pcm, sinc-L, lns15 handles the streaming. I am able to switch easily with my Antipodes EX. PGGB - MPD/ssd to usb to TT2 Streaming - roon to HQPe to network 2 to pi4/audiolinux naa to src-dx to TT2 dbnc Gavin1977 and kennyb123 2 Link to comment
LowOrbit Posted May 15, 2021 Share Posted May 15, 2021 Streaming can of course be done via HQP with Roon, but I won't go down the Roon path. Audirvana integrates well enough with both local library and Qobuz for my needs. I have used HQP for many years as my primary player (that changed when I moved away from my DSD diy dac. Following other experiences here, I used HQP (all HQP processing turned off) to push my sample PGGB files to the HMS. Sounded excellent, but so does Audirvana/HMS/Dave, with the benefits of streaming functionality, doesn't require industrial amounts of data storage, maintenance of a separate library (I need regular redbook files for portable use) and so on. We all have our priorities and PGGB - at this point in time - just doesn't make a compelling case for me. Progisus 1 Link to comment
ambre Posted May 15, 2021 Share Posted May 15, 2021 1 hour ago, Miska said: DoP enabled as SDM Pack in HQPlayer settings? Dear Miska, Yes tried DoP and No DoP several times. No difference. Best regards, Andreas Quote Ethernet::4x Bonn Silent Angel 8P, Afterdark Emperor Doublr Crown Masterclock and Cybershaft 75 Ohm,Mini Circuits convertor,Uptone EtherRegen with 75Ohm. SOTM Cat CAT 7. Audio: Auralic Vega G2.1, Cambridge Edge W, Kef Reference 3 speakers. Power: Farad super 3 (2x) , Keces P8 ( 2 Uptone LPS1.2 ) Afterdark 5V: Cables:Meicord Opal, SOTM Cat7 with filtering, Ghent Audio DC , Farad Level 2, Sharkwire speaker cable Link to comment
Fourlegs Posted May 16, 2021 Share Posted May 16, 2021 8 hours ago, kennyb123 said: Agree with this. M-Scaler on pass-through robbed the music of a good chunk of the PGGB magic in my system. What were you feeding to the MScaler? Pggb 24bit or 32bit? Pggb noise shaped or pggb with noise shaping turned off? Owner Wave High Fidelity digital cables : Antipodes Oladra (WAVE Storm BNC spdif RF noise filtering cable to Mscaler) Dave (with Sean Jacobs ARC6 and SJ Cap Board) + WAVE Storm dual BNC RF noise filtering cables ATC150 active speakers. Link to comment
kennyb123 Posted May 16, 2021 Share Posted May 16, 2021 4 hours ago, Fourlegs said: What were you feeding to the MScaler? Pggb 24bit or 32bit? Pggb noise shaped or pggb with noise shaping turned off? 8fs and 16fs at 32bits. Noise shaping on. It was by no means subtle - else I wouldn’t have quickly arrived at the conclusion that the MScaler was a goner. I wish it hadn’t been such a loss because I would have kept the MScaler as I love it for streaming. But no way was I going to repeatedly swap cables around for when I listen to PGGB. Digital: Sonore opticalModule > Uptone EtherRegen > Shunyata Sigma Ethernet > Antipodes K30 > Shunyata Omega USB > Gustard X26pro DAC < Mutec REF10 SE120 Amp & Speakers: Spectral DMA-150mk2 > Aerial 10T Foundation: Stillpoints Ultra, Shunyata Denali v1 and Typhon x1 power conditioners, Shunyata Delta v2 and QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation and Infinity power cords, QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation XLR interconnect, Shunyata Sigma Ethernet, MIT Matrix HD 60 speaker cables, GIK bass traps, ASC Isothermal tube traps, Stillpoints Aperture panels, Quadraspire SVT rack, PGGB 256 Link to comment
Popular Post Fourlegs Posted May 16, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted May 16, 2021 1 minute ago, kennyb123 said: 8fs and 16fs at 32bits. Noise shaping on. It was by no means subtle - else I wouldn’t have quickly arrived at the conclusion that the MScaler was a goner. I wish it hadn’t been such a loss because I would have kept the MScaler as I love it for streaming. But no way was I going to repeatedly swap cables around for when I listen to PGGB. Thanks. I am processing a selection of files to try into the Mscaler in pass through mode and will compare with the SRX.DX usb to dual bnc convertor arriving on Monday. With the mscaler I will probably start with 16fs at 24 bit with noise shaping off and go from there (and use pggb noise shaping on for the SRX.DX). kennyb123 and NanoSword 1 1 Owner Wave High Fidelity digital cables : Antipodes Oladra (WAVE Storm BNC spdif RF noise filtering cable to Mscaler) Dave (with Sean Jacobs ARC6 and SJ Cap Board) + WAVE Storm dual BNC RF noise filtering cables ATC150 active speakers. Link to comment
kennyb123 Posted May 16, 2021 Share Posted May 16, 2021 12 hours ago, LowOrbit said: But I haven't done the exhaustive testing and comparisons others here clearly have. For now PGGB is a curio for me rather than a definite path as it does not provide an easy route for treating Qobuz streams, which is key for me and why I am focussing on the Dave/HMS and extracting as much performance as I can from those elements. To date I haven't heard enough "improvement" from PGGB to offest the considerable inconvenience adopting this as a core technology would entail for me. The improvement from PGGB was evident to me within 15 seconds of the first track I heard. Pretty easy to hear with my TT2 - even when I just scaled up to 8fs. My point simply being that it shouldn’t take “exhausting testing and comparisons” to hear the benefits of PGGB with a DAVE. Digital: Sonore opticalModule > Uptone EtherRegen > Shunyata Sigma Ethernet > Antipodes K30 > Shunyata Omega USB > Gustard X26pro DAC < Mutec REF10 SE120 Amp & Speakers: Spectral DMA-150mk2 > Aerial 10T Foundation: Stillpoints Ultra, Shunyata Denali v1 and Typhon x1 power conditioners, Shunyata Delta v2 and QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation and Infinity power cords, QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation XLR interconnect, Shunyata Sigma Ethernet, MIT Matrix HD 60 speaker cables, GIK bass traps, ASC Isothermal tube traps, Stillpoints Aperture panels, Quadraspire SVT rack, PGGB 256 Link to comment
LowOrbit Posted May 16, 2021 Share Posted May 16, 2021 40 minutes ago, kennyb123 said: The improvement from PGGB was evident to me within 15 seconds of the first track I heard. Pretty easy to hear with my TT2 - even when I just scaled up to 8fs. My point simply being that it shouldn’t take “exhausting testing and comparisons” to hear the benefits of PGGB with a DAVE. Hi Kenny I never said there were no benefits or differences were not apparent, nor that I thought it did not sound good - just that for me, right now, it isn't an approach that makes enough sense to compel me to pursue PGGB. This tool emerged from gestation just a week or so after I got my MScaler, which in turn was only a couple of weeks after my Dave finally arrived. Had PGGB launched a couple fo weeks earlier I probably would have been more willing to jump headlong into this approach. For the sake of the costs involved (in my case a bump in RAM and a couple of big SSDs) it would have been more attractive and I would have probably convinced myself that I could live with Audirvana upsampling streamed content for me. Knowing what I am like, I am sure I will end up buying a PGGB license before the year is out. There are other aspects of my system that can be improved meanwhile, and those (Mains, server etc) will bring enhancements that will maximise future PGGB use. If I had a Taiko Extreme sat on my rack I'd say PGGB is a natural step. kennyb123 1 Link to comment
basillus Posted May 16, 2021 Share Posted May 16, 2021 Hi, does the Chord Qutest, also have the “bad” Amanero usb chipset? If not, will it’s “newer” usb chipset, also benefit to get bypassed with the AudioWise SRC-DX bridge? Also if the usb input support 16FS 32bit and the dual bnc input just 16FS 24bit? Thanks for this interesting PBBC info and I am now very tempted to try it.😉 Link to comment
chrille Posted May 16, 2021 Share Posted May 16, 2021 15 hours ago, austinpop said: An excellent album, and one of my all-time favorites! There is actually a 24/96 version that does improve on the Redbook. This is one of those rare albums where you want to use the "combine" feature of PGGB (https://www.remastero.com/guide.html#Combine). Since you have this album, you know that it has 16 tracks, but in terms of continuity, tracks 1-6 and 7-16 are contiguous. When I process this, I use the combine feature to combine these into 2 longer tracks. This does take more memory, but man, is it worth it! The resulting combined tracks 1-6 gets processed at 1029M taps, and tracks 7-16 (over an hour long) at 2478M taps. But back to the demo. Scrounge around your computers... you sure you don't have one that has (or can be upgraded to) 16MB? If so, you can easily gargle-blast a short Redbook track like track 14 (Neige Neige) or track 15 (Blicket auf). Hello Rajiv, while I agree that the Solti Mahler is indeed a good vintage DECCA analogue recording . But imho modern hi res recordings like the ones from SSFO or LSO LIVE are better SQ wise than that one. Regarding modern digital HI RES like for example the BIS Sibelius symphonies you mentioned in one of your reviews or the imho very good Indian classical Vijay Gupta album you also used, could you indicate on a percentage scale the differences improvements as you hear those two examples PGGB´d compared to mscaled? In other words if you have dumpted your Mscaler PGGB is better in your opionion right? But how much better? 5 -10% or more? You mentioned fingertapping in a post here and that album with finger-tapping is an album I really love mscaled and his violin sounds very realistic too via my electrostats. Judging from the 4 minutes test track I´ve heard so far this thing might be what I need for future travels if they become a possiblity again. But my test track is of genre I am not into and contains both electric guitar and what sounds like other amplified instruments or synth as well to me and not ideal so I would really like to hear PGGB both with an all acoustic testfile and hi res and as many taps as really matter. Not sure where that limit is but according to Rob and digital theory 256M taps would be needed to fully resolve 24 bits if my understanding of that aspect of things is correct? I have so far only heard a native 16/44.1 PGGB ´d to 32/705 186M and would like to hear what PGGB has to deliver with hi res before investing in a better laptop. But I can play the testrack both in Audirvana and Pure Music on my old MBP. Cheers and thanks for informative and very good reviews. Chrille Link to comment
seeteeyou Posted May 16, 2021 Share Posted May 16, 2021 29 minutes ago, basillus said: Hi, does the Chord Qutest, also have the “bad” Amanero usb chipset? Let's check all of their products listed on the official site https://chordelectronics.co.uk/product/dave/ https://chordelectronics.co.uk/product/mojo/ https://chordelectronics.co.uk/product/qutest/ https://chordelectronics.co.uk/product/hugo-2/ https://chordelectronics.co.uk/product/hugott2/ https://chordelectronics.co.uk/product/hugo-mscaler/ All of them were pointing to the same Windows-10-768KHz-driver.zip driver and obviously they're sharing the same hardware from Amanero. 29 minutes ago, basillus said: If not, will it’s “newer” usb chipset, also benefit to get bypassed with the AudioWise SRC-DX bridge? It might be difficult to predict, maybe that would depend on what's actually sitting in front of Qutest? https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/taiko-audio-sgm-extreme-the-crème-de-la-crème.27433/page-371#post-719062 Quote Here's a speculative comment regarding this AudioWise USB to BNC bridge for Chord DAVE owners. I'm not convinced that bypassing Amanero on the DAVE has the same impact if you don't own an ultra low latency music server like the Extreme. For example, having owned the InnuOS Zenith SE Mk2 once upon a time, I would not consider that server to be ultra low latency. This applies to any other server that utilizes a low power CPU including an Aurender W20SE which I also had here. I thought my best DIY server effort was pretty low latency (as it outclassed both the InnuOS and the Aurender) until my Extreme arrived and the Extreme made that server sound slow and smeared and sleepy. So anything with higher latency than the Extreme that is introduced into the path after the Extreme will be a bottleneck to the Extreme and Amanero is clearly a bottleneck. But with other music servers, one may find that the Amanero in DAVE isn't really a bottleneck and so in these instances, the AudioWise bridge may not offer much. This is why I said YMMV. Maybe not THAT many motherboards were "proven" to be a good fit for an ultra low latency music server except for these guys? Asus WS C621E SAGE https://www.asus.com/Commercial-Servers-Workstations/WS-C621E-SAGE/ Supermicro X10DRU-XLL https://www.supermicro.com/en/products/motherboard/X10DRU-XLL Supermicro X11DPU-XLL https://www.supermicro.com/en/products/motherboard/X11DPU-XLL NanoSword 1 Link to comment
chrille Posted May 16, 2021 Share Posted May 16, 2021 16 hours ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said: It would be best to choose 5 tracks you are most familiar with and either me or someone here with PGGB can gargle-blast them for you. The limitation is due to Matlab's runtime that requires Mojave (10.14) or higher. I have a Macbook Air M1 but they are still limited to 16GB RAM, it would be ok for trail but if you plan tot gargle-blast your library I would recommend something more beefy. You may be able to try even DSD and DXD if you drop the mas taps to 128M to where your Mac can handle it. That is a tough one on 16GB as Macs don't let you allocate swap space, and you will have to try to reduce the max taps till your Mac can handle it. It is best to use the trial version to figure what works for you. Yes and it depends on the player. Jriver, and HQplayer can handle Wavpack. Roon and A+ don't. PGGB uses lossless wavpack, though wavpack also supports lossy. Yes space can be an issue and I use 12TB of NVME drive on my server. Thanks for your response. You suggest I send 5 tracks I know well but my problem is that my masterfiles are already huge and I am on a slow usb internet connection in the Swedish Countryside. It took me over an hour to download the first 16/44.1 PGGB´d testtrack a bit over 1gig in size and the files I would really like to hear are often over 1-2 gig so I don´t know how to get around this other than possibly sending a usb stick by mail to someone to get it done. But a good thing would be if YOU could upload an all acoustic absolutely zero synths or amplified instruments, really good PGGB´d recording to download as zipfile directly from HERE. I am sure that might raise even more interest in your product if you did so. Regarding my future possible upgrading to do what I need which is all out BEST possible hi res gargleblasting I would appreciate more precise recommendations not half-measures. If at all, I would want to take FULL advantage of what can be done with this. I have read about all the problems people here have run into with HQP when their computers couldn´t cope. If I really hear a definitive improvement over Mscaler with my reference files and go ahead with this I need to be on safe side of things, not half way. Why not develop the ultimate player for this as well? Personally I have no interest in all those subsription based streaming platforms and Server solutions all I need is the highest possible playback quality of hi res recorded acoustic music recorded in a real acoustic space, no more. I listen almost exclusively to Western or Asian classical music and some other acoustic genres and don´t want to be dependent on an internet connection once I want to play my music. Just as with Facebook,I will never subscribe to ROON or any other such provider. YT and lots of classical institutions´and orchestras free of charge streaming are all I need. Excuse my ignorance but what is what is NVME? I currently use several LaCie rugged portable 2Tb harddrives but would need much bigger portable harddrives if I get into this. My inital need would be to avoid travelling with my Mscaler in the future but maybe I would need as heavy harddrives instead to make it happen? Cheers Chrille Link to comment
basillus Posted May 16, 2021 Share Posted May 16, 2021 Thank you seeteeyou for your specific and in-depth info as usual. I use the Asus WS C621E MB. Link to comment
Zaphod Beeblebrox Posted May 16, 2021 Share Posted May 16, 2021 4 hours ago, chrille said: But a good thing would be if YOU could upload an all acoustic absolutely zero synths or amplified instruments, really good PGGB´d recording to download as zipfile directly from HERE. I am sure that might raise even more interest in your product if you did so. I would have loved to provide samples on the web page for everyone to download ant try, but the problem is copyright. I did try to approach few labels who already had free samples up on their site but none of them were interested in their samples being gargle-blasted and made available even if I said I will link to the originals on their site. For the same copyright reason I cannot also post a track on a public forum. The alternate will be if you provide details on one or two tracks that you own and would like gargle-blasted (you need not upload them), then someone here with the same track will be able to PM you a gargle-blasted version. 4 hours ago, chrille said: Regarding my future possible upgradind g to do what I need which is all out BEST possible hi res gargleblasting I would appreciate more precise recommendations not half-measures. I have explained it here and provided a sample build here. If you want the absolute best with anything you throw at it, A PC with 128GB RAM, 2TB of NVME SSD, a i7 or higher processor with 8 cores or more. I use a PC with Intel i9 processor with 8 cores and 64GB RAM. 4 hours ago, chrille said: Why not develop the ultimate player for this as well? I will be happy to work with anyone who is interested in integrating PGGB but lack the time bandwidth necessary to develop a player myself, it would be a significant undertaking and competing with well established players. 4 hours ago, chrille said: Excuse my ignorance but what is what is NVME? It is a storage technology for solid state data storage: What is NVMe Storage? NVMe Storage Explained - Kingston Technology chrille 1 Author of PGGB & RASA, remastero Update: PGGB-256 is completely revamped, improved, and now uses much less memory New: PGGB-IT! is a new interface for PGGB 256, supports multi-channel, smaller footprint, more lossless compression options Free: foo_pggb_rt is a free real-time upsampling plugin for foobar2000 64bit; RASA is a free tool to do FFT analysis of audio tracks System: TT7 PGI 240v > Paretoaudio Server [SR7T] > Adnaco Fiber [SR5T] >VR L2iSE [QSA Silver fuse, QSA Lanedri Gamma Infinity PC]> QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation RCA> Omega CAMs, JL Sub, Vox Z-Bass/ [QSA Silver fuse, QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation PC] KGSSHV Carbon CC, Audeze CRBN Link to comment
chrille Posted May 16, 2021 Share Posted May 16, 2021 1 hour ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said: I would have loved to provide samples on the web page for everyone to download ant try, but the problem is copyright. I did try to approach few labels who already had free samples up on their site but none of them were interested in their samples being gargle-blasted and made available even if I said I will link to the originals on their site. For the same copyright reason I cannot also post a track on a public forum. The alternate will be if you provide details on one or two tracks that you own and would like gargle-blasted (you need not upload them), then someone here with the same track will be able to PM you a gargle-blasted version. I have explained it here and provided a sample build here. If you want the absolute best with anything you throw at it, A PC with 128GB RAM, 2TB of NVME SSD, a i7 or higher processor with 8 cores or more. I use a PC with Intel i9 processor with 8 cores and 64GB RAM. I will be happy to work with anyone who is interested in integrating PGGB but lack the time bandwidth necessary to develop a player myself, it would be a significant undertaking and competing with well established players. It is a storage technology for solid state data storage: What is NVMe Storage? NVMe Storage Explained - Kingston Technology Thanks for your rapid response again. 1 Yes I was aware that might be a problem ie copyright issues, that is why suggested to Roy that he sits down at his piano and records something that could be uploaded here without any CR issues. 2 That would of course be an option for me the only one here I know of with similar tase and the same albums in some important and imho revealing cases would be Rajiv. 3 I would like to stick to mac if I go ahead with this so if someone could tell which MBP and specs to buy that would be helpful. 4 Good luck and hope someone bites on your offer of cooperation. if so I just hope it will be a down-loadable pay once thing NOT subscription based. I hate all these subscription based platforms popping up everywhere these days! The latest seems to be Audirvana. No way! I am going to subscribe and have to pay annual bills in order to be able to play music I have already paid for. Just imagine if an LP or cd would stop playing just because you haven´t paid your subscription! When it comes to those things I am appalled how easily fooled most people are in this internet always having to stay connected age, we depend on so much. Coincidentally the reason I just responded to your post now was because Firefox crashed on my i Mac and I couldn´t start it again. Maybe they want me to pay a ransom to re-start Firefox again? Luckily I have three computers but none capable of handling PGGB. Cheers Chrille Link to comment
Popular Post austinpop Posted May 16, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted May 16, 2021 7 hours ago, chrille said: Hello Rajiv, while I agree that the Solti Mahler is indeed a good vintage DECCA analogue recording . But imho modern hi res recordings like the ones from SSFO or LSO LIVE are better SQ wise than that one. Regarding modern digital HI RES like for example the BIS Sibelius symphonies you mentioned in one of your reviews or the imho very good Indian classical Vijay Gupta album you also used, could you indicate on a percentage scale the differences improvements as you hear those two examples PGGB´d compared to mscaled? In other words if you have dumpted your Mscaler PGGB is better in your opionion right? But how much better? 5 -10% or more? Hi Chrille, I find PGGB to improve everything — from the crappiest recording in my collection to the best. In general — and I'll defer to @Zaphod Beeblebrox to weigh in if this is predicted by the math — the improvement is greatest with Redbook albums, and smallest with DXD. Stated another way, the greater the upsampling multiplier, the greater the apparent improvement. Here are a few examples: Redbook: Haydn Creation (Arkiv, mid-80s) (16x multipler) - I love this performance, but never really thought of this as a great recording. PGGB has just transformed this album. 24/96: the aforementioned Sibelius BIS recordings by Osmo Vänskä and the Minnesota Orchestra (8x multiplier) - These are already-great modern recording, but improved even more with PGGB. Are they "transformed?" Perhaps not, but I would never go back, having heard the PGGB version. 24/352.8: The 2L Arnesen Magnificat album (2x multiplier) - This DXD version is considered reference quality already. Yet, PGGB improved it in important ways. All that said, a PGGBed lower-res mastering does not leapfrog a PGGBed hi-res mastering, although the delta between the 2 PGGBed versions will certainly be smaller. Anyone who wants to try this for themselves should just go to the 2L testbench and try the experment with some of the samples there. 7 hours ago, chrille said: I have so far only heard a native 16/44.1 PGGB ´d to 32/705 186M and would like to hear what PGGB has to deliver with hi res before investing in a better laptop. But I can play the testrack both in Audirvana and Pure Music on my old MBP. Check your PM. As regards PGGB vs. MScaler, this is really something you should evaluate for yourself. I have always asked that readers of my reviews and postings not use my findings as a basis for making purchasing decisions. At best, my findings are a guide, a suggestion to explore for yourself to try, and then let your ears be the ultimate judge. What is "transformational" to my ears on my system may be "hm, nice, but not amazing" to your ears on your system. I actually wish I had kept my MScaler for use with streamed Qobuz music. Since you don't stream music, your decision may be simpler. If you find PGGB to your liking and sufficiently superior to using MScaler, then the sale of the latter could easily fund the purchase of a PGGB license, a kickass system for PGGB processing, extra storage for your music server, and still have a nice chunk of change left over. You just have to hear it for yourself and decide for yourself. kennyb123, lwr, chrille and 1 other 1 2 1 My Audio Setup Link to comment
MarkusBarkus Posted May 16, 2021 Share Posted May 16, 2021 1 hour ago, austinpop said: As regards PGGB vs. MScaler, this is really something you should evaluate for yourself. ...for listeners evaluating this pathway, I will add @austinpophas always advocated for listening and making a decision specific to your system, ears, objectives...and budget. This is easy to forget. I sometimes do not experience the same effects/outcomes Rajiv describes in his experiences, for whatever reasons. Because Rajiv is a respected and experienced "influencer" it would be easy to just forge ahead on his path, but my path sometimes diverges. Perhaps yours does too...but that's up to you to figure out. I am writing this post because I find Rajiv's latest post to be an insightful and honest reminder that he (and a small cadre of maniacs) is offering experiential guidance...and not prescriptions. And that is still very, very helpful... austinpop 1 I'm MarkusBarkus and I approve this post. Link to comment
Jean Paul D Posted May 16, 2021 Share Posted May 16, 2021 6 hours ago, austinpop said: Hi Chrille, I find PGGB to improve everything — from the crappiest recording in my collection to the best. In general — and I'll defer to @Zaphod Beeblebrox to weigh in if this is predicted by the math — the improvement is greatest with Redbook albums, and smallest with DXD. Stated another way, the greater the upsampling multiplier, the greater the apparent improvement. Here are a few examples: Redbook: Haydn Creation (Arkiv, mid-80s) (16x multipler) - I love this performance, but never really thought of this as a great recording. PGGB has just transformed this album. 24/96: the aforementioned Sibelius BIS recordings by Osmo Vänskä and the Minnesota Orchestra (8x multiplier) - These are already-great modern recording, but improved even more with PGGB. Are they "transformed?" Perhaps not, but I would never go back, having heard the PGGB version. 24/352.8: The 2L Arnesen Magnificat album (2x multiplier) - This DXD version is considered reference quality already. Yet, PGGB improved it in important ways. All that said, a PGGBed lower-res mastering does not leapfrog a PGGBed hi-res mastering, although the delta between the 2 PGGBed versions will certainly be smaller. Anyone who wants to try this for themselves should just go to the 2L testbench and try the experment with some of the samples there. Check your PM. As regards PGGB vs. MScaler, this is really something you should evaluate for yourself. I have always asked that readers of my reviews and postings not use my findings as a basis for making purchasing decisions. At best, my findings are a guide, a suggestion to explore for yourself to try, and then let your ears be the ultimate judge. What is "transformational" to my ears on my system may be "hm, nice, but not amazing" to your ears on your system. I actually wish I had kept my MScaler for use with streamed Qobuz music. Since you don't stream music, your decision may be simpler. If you find PGGB to your liking and sufficiently superior to using MScaler, then the sale of the latter could easily fund the purchase of a PGGB license, a kickass system for PGGB processing, extra storage for your music server, and still have a nice chunk of change left over. You just have to hear it for yourself and decide for yourself. From your system description, you listen exclusively through headphones, is that correct? HQ Player 4 Mac Mini M1 Link to comment
Popular Post chrille Posted May 17, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted May 17, 2021 22 hours ago, austinpop said: Hi Chrille, I find PGGB to improve everything — from the crappiest recording in my collection to the best. In general — and I'll defer to @Zaphod Beeblebrox to weigh in if this is predicted by the math — the improvement is greatest with Redbook albums, and smallest with DXD. Stated another way, the greater the upsampling multiplier, the greater the apparent improvement. Here are a few examples: Redbook: Haydn Creation (Arkiv, mid-80s) (16x multipler) - I love this performance, but never really thought of this as a great recording. PGGB has just transformed this album. 24/96: the aforementioned Sibelius BIS recordings by Osmo Vänskä and the Minnesota Orchestra (8x multiplier) - These are already-great modern recording, but improved even more with PGGB. Are they "transformed?" Perhaps not, but I would never go back, having heard the PGGB version. 24/352.8: The 2L Arnesen Magnificat album (2x multiplier) - This DXD version is considered reference quality already. Yet, PGGB improved it in important ways. All that said, a PGGBed lower-res mastering does not leapfrog a PGGBed hi-res mastering, although the delta between the 2 PGGBed versions will certainly be smaller. Anyone who wants to try this for themselves should just go to the 2L testbench and try the experment with some of the samples there. Check your PM. As regards PGGB vs. MScaler, this is really something you should evaluate for yourself. I have always asked that readers of my reviews and postings not use my findings as a basis for making purchasing decisions. At best, my findings are a guide, a suggestion to explore for yourself to try, and then let your ears be the ultimate judge. What is "transformational" to my ears on my system may be "hm, nice, but not amazing" to your ears on your system. I actually wish I had kept my MScaler for use with streamed Qobuz music. Since you don't stream music, your decision may be simpler. If you find PGGB to your liking and sufficiently superior to using MScaler, then the sale of the latter could easily fund the purchase of a PGGB license, a kickass system for PGGB processing, extra storage for your music server, and still have a nice chunk of change left over. You just have to hear it for yourself and decide for yourself. Thanks a lot, I have now got three PGGB´d tracks to play via Audirvana on my MBP and yes ALL three sound clearly better and more realistic via my system than played in native formats via my Qutest. Very easy to hear with the 16/44.1 track Nick sent me although that music is not really anything I was familiar with from before. But the two tracks you sent me I know very well and the Sibelius I could keep conducting along to from memory for quite a while after the third movement abruptly ends. Listening to Suryodaya PGGB´d from DSD 128 native via my electrostatic speakers is pure joy. Effortless, pure, clean, noise-free and with tabla finger-tapping almost as live, wow! Since I have to disconnect and re-connect and adjust levels to go between Mscaled and PGGB´d I need more time and deeper listening to set a definite pecking order. But one thing already seems clear to me, this is also very good indeed. And possibly even better than my Mscaler/Qutest combo judging from memory of Mscaled with Suryodaya. Cheers and thanks a lot, Chrille Fourlegs and austinpop 2 Link to comment
Popular Post ajm Posted May 18, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted May 18, 2021 Also with the kind support of @austinpop and @fourlegs, I have now had opportunity to listen to some PGGB'd versions of 3 tracks I selected and all three were very good. In particular, the Solti Mahler 8 brought a sensation closer to presence in the concert hall and improved the representation of distorting high notes, cymbal clashes and better clarity of bass and detail generally. I have tried playing audiolinux HQPe/NAA direct to DAVE and using passthrough. Direct to DAVE version is better to my ear but, of course, changing the USB connection for different recordings is rather a nuisance (I have not had the opportunity to try different PGGB output formats). I can say without much doubt that these PGGB'd versions would, in principle, enable me to dispense with MScaler if not wishing to upscale other sources but I have also grown very attached to my MScaler for video sound, etc. So I will probably get new PC and make further experiments with PGGB when I have time for the project. To PGGB the lot, I will also need to upgrade my NAS storage and tidy the library! Fourlegs and austinpop 2 Link to comment
3ggerhappy Posted May 19, 2021 Share Posted May 19, 2021 Firstly, would like to thank @Zaphod Beeblebrox for allowing me to experience this wonderful upsampling app. Just have time around it and immediately pggb'ed a single track using different settings. Tried a natural-moderate-moderate, natural-dense-moderate, and natural-transparent-moderate to dxd 32bit 81M(should be 24bit) and I am already liking what im hearing with the dCS Rossini(too bad I cannot bypass the filters. Still...). The tonality indeed becomes dense or transparent/lean as with the settings, improved air and separation that gives a subtle 3d feel in my case. I prefer the natural-moderate-moderate settings and going forward would use this settings. I also have a Holo Spring 2 currently on loan to a friend, I am expecting more noticeable improvements with it in in nos mode. So i'll go on and upsample some other tracks. Link to comment
austinpop Posted May 19, 2021 Share Posted May 19, 2021 That’s great to hear. 15 minutes ago, 3ggerhappy said: to dxd 32bit 81M(should be 24bit) Yes, you should noise shaper to 24-bit for dCS. 15 minutes ago, 3ggerhappy said: and I am already liking what im hearing with the dCS Rossini(too bad I cannot bypass the filters. Still...). I was under the impression that the Rossini would bypass the internal filters when presented 24/8FS. Isn’t this effectively what happens if preceded by the dCS Upsampler? My Audio Setup Link to comment
3ggerhappy Posted May 19, 2021 Share Posted May 19, 2021 5 minutes ago, austinpop said: I was under the impression that the Rossini would bypass the internal filters when presented 24/8FS. Isn’t this effectively what happens if preceded by the dCS Upsampler? For the vivaldi I believe it is, since the upsampler is separate. For the Rossini it still goes through the filter even at 24/8fs since it is built in. https://www.manualslib.com/manual/1540339/Dcs-Rossini.html?page=40#manual Link to comment
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