Differences in sound: DAC vs. DAC + Pre-amplifier

[barrows]

48 minutes ago, Blake said:

2. I think that generalized statements about tubes simply adding distortion/warmth, while always detracting from transparency is also misguided.  In well implemented circumstances, the tubes can make the music subjectively much more like real musicians in your room- it can sound much more like real music, with very little or even no perceived loss in detail/transparency.  I won't call out any specific component examples as I don't want to offend, but we have all heard systems/components that while seemingly transparent and detailed, sound sterile, flat and un-inspiring.  Not like the real thing.  The word "transparent" can be misleading and incomplete in this context.  We want music that sounds "real".  If the tubes don't result in any perceived loss in detail, while also adding to the body and sound stage, then how are tubes detracting from audiophile goals of being true to the source material?

I agree, to a point.  Certainly all generalized statements are done so for the purpose of communication, and are never going to be 100% accurate for every possible situation.  when I, or anyone, generalizes, I accept that there may be a very small percentage of exceptions to that generalization, and I expect that a reader would just assume this, as without the ability to generalize it is virtually impossible to have a discussion at all (in fact without the ability to generalize we would be forever pointing out the caveats and never actually getting anywhere).  So if my statements have seemed to absolute for some, I apologize for that.

 

As for tubes, only in the last few years have I come to the perspective that tubes are now completely obsolete in the quest for the absolute best possible playback systems.  While I agree in many cases that tubes can improve a system in some instances, in some ways, the recent advances in the best SS circuits have eliminated all advantages tubes may have had int he past.  These advances are only heard in some components though, and it may be that many have not heard the best possible solid state systems.

 

As for objective/subjective discussions, i am not a believer in "camps" or dichotomies when it comes to audio playback systems.  And I think that the current fashion of placing audiophiles/music lovers into "camps" like this is destructive, silly, and infantile.  Surely listening to music is a subjective experience, so subjective impressions matter.  Similarly, decent audio components cannot be adequately designed without engineering/maths and making many measurements.  Separating these things out, and defining people as one or the other is absurd to me.

[barrows]

Additional note on the Bob Katz article:

 

His theory is that the improvement in subjective sonics is the result of masking: that the additional H2 distortion is masking more objectionable distortion products from other components.  This is an interesting topic which I would love to learn more about, perhaps in another thread, and may be what @CG was referring to earlier in this thread which he referred to as distortion cancelling.

But I would suggest that we now can have electronics which have no audible distortion at all, so there is no distortion which needs to be masked anymore.  

[CG]

1 hour ago, barrows said:

may be what @CG was referring to earlier in this thread which he referred to as distortion cancelling.

 

But I would suggest that we now can have electronics which have no audible distortion at all, so there is no distortion which needs to be masked anymore.  

 

I've finally seen the light and have learned that audio electronics are perfect now.  So, I wouldn't be frequenting this website any longer - what's the point? - but I received an email informing me that Barrows had asked a question of me.  It only seems fair and reasonable to answer his question.

 

There's far too much information available on this subject.  If you go to your favorite search engine and type in "distortion cancellation mechanism series amplifiers" you'll get "About 3,140,000 results".  You probably don't need to go through all of them.  But, even on the first page of results, there are some names you probably are familiar with.

 

Have fun!

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 minute ago, CG said:

you'll get "About 3,140,000 results".

Wait, logged-in or not?

 

:~)

[sandyk]

1 hour ago, CG said:

If you go to your favorite search engine and type in "distortion cancellation mechanism series amplifiers" you'll get "About 3,140,000 results".  

 I feel cheated. I only got "About 2,730,000 results  (0.45 seconds) "

 

 For anyone interested in learning more about many of the amplifier distortion mechanisms, a good reference is

Audio Power Amplifier Design Handbook 5th ed - D. Self (Focal, 2009) where he details 11 Different types of Distortion

 

The distortion mechanisms
Distortion 1: Input stage distortion
Distortion 2: VAS
Distortion 3: Output stage distortion
Distortion 4: VAS-loading distortion
Distortion 5: Rail-decoupling distortion
Distortion 6: Induction distortion
Distortion 7: NFB take-off distortion
Distortion 8: Capacitor distortion
Distortion 9: Magnetic distortion
Distortion 10: Input current distortion
Distortion 11: Premature overload protection

 

(VAS  = Voltage Amplification Stage)

[Miska]

16 hours ago, sandyk said:

 For anyone interested in learning more about many of the amplifier distortion mechanisms, a good reference is

Audio Power Amplifier Design Handbook 5th ed - D. Self (Focal, 2009) where he details 11 Different types of Distortion

 

He also had nice series of articles on these topics on the Electronics & Wireless World magazine back in the days.

 

My current amplifiers are actually designed by him (pre- and power)...

 

[Blake]

20 hours ago, barrows said:

As for objective/subjective discussions, i am not a believer in "camps" or dichotomies when it comes to audio playback systems.  And I think that the current fashion of placing audiophiles/music lovers into "camps" like this is destructive, silly, and infantile.  Surely listening to music is a subjective experience, so subjective impressions matter.  Similarly, decent audio components cannot be adequately designed without engineering/maths and making many measurements.  Separating these things out, and defining people as one or the other is absurd to me.

 

Agreed, 100%.  Unfortunately, there are lots of people in our community that put themselves in a "camp" and we have recently seen the results of extremist "camp" views here on AS. 

 

To be very clear, in case it was implied from my post, I was definitely not referring to you as being one of the hard-line objectivists.  I should have clarified that earlier.  I have never considered you to be in any camp.  I enjoy reading your posts and have learned much from you over the years.  You are one of the good people on this forum.  I am always very interested in the views and experience of those, like yourself, who work in the industry as you have insight that most others do not have.  And, of course, I have benefited greatly from my Sonore products! 

[barrows]

Thanks for the kind words @Blake.  I hope that others here would be reasonable and dismiss the idea of creating division between audiophiles/music lovers by dividing them into camps, were are in this together for the love of music and hi fidelity music playback in the home.

[Blake]

So... as I was typing this, we just experienced yet another earthquake aftershock here in Salt Lake City.  The house shook pretty good!  I think we are at something like 350+ aftershocks now.  Ok, worldwide pandemics (check), earthquakes (check)....   What next?! 🤕

 

Of course, others in more earthquake prone areas of the world would laugh at a 5.7 quake!

 

[sandyk]

6 hours ago, Miska said:

 

He also had nice series of articles on these topics on the Electronics & Wireless World magazine back in the days.

 

My current amplifiers are actually designed by him (pre- and power)…

 

 Hi Miska

Yes, I have seen some of his earlier articles.

 Both my >15W/Ch Class A and Class A Preamp embody his principles, as well as very low noise (4uV) separate regulation for the P.A. front ends and being completely DC coupled with a monoblock type construction, although in the same metal rack case, and separate regulated power for each channel of the P.A. (2 x 21-0-21V windings on the same screened toroidal transformer) and individual external toroidal transformers for both channels of the Preamp. All of the main power is in a separate 2U rack case with the Preamp fed 2 x 18-0-18VAC, and the P.A. fed 2 x regulated + and - 20V

 

Regards

Alex

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

On 3/26/2020 at 5:50 AM, barrows said:

Certainly all generalized statements are done so for the purpose of communication,

 

Most certainly they are not (tongue in cheek) 😲 This is one of my better generalizations.😉

 

On 3/26/2020 at 5:50 AM, barrows said:

 

 when I, or anyone, generalizes, I accept that there may be a very small percentage of exceptions to that generalization, and I expect that a reader would just assume this,

 

One should never assume.  This is one of my better generalizations.😉

 

On 3/26/2020 at 5:50 AM, barrows said:

as without the ability to generalize it is virtually impossible to have a discussion at all (in fact without the ability to generalize we would be forever pointing out the caveats and never actually getting anywhere).

 

 

generally this is not true 😅 (tongue still in cheek0

 

 

On 3/26/2020 at 5:50 AM, barrows said:

 

As for tubes, only in the last few years have I come to the perspective that tubes are now completely obsolete in the quest for the absolute best possible playback systems.  

 

 

This is not a generalization and IMO does not attempt to state a categorical truth.

 

On 3/26/2020 at 5:50 AM, barrows said:

  And I think that the current fashion of placing audiophiles/music lovers into "camps" like this is destructive, silly, and infantile.

 

.....but apart from being destructive, silly, and infantile people advocating this fashion are good guys, right?

 

</end tongue in cheek>

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

On 3/26/2020 at 5:50 AM, barrows said:

As for objective/subjective discussions, i am not a believer in "camps" or dichotomies when it comes to audio playback systems.  And I think that the current fashion of placing audiophiles/music lovers into "camps" like this is destructive, silly, and infantile.  Surely listening to music is a subjective experience, so subjective impressions matter.  Similarly, decent audio components cannot be adequately designed without engineering/maths and making many measurements.  Separating these things out, and defining people as one or the other is absurd to me.

 

I agree there should be less tribalism that separates audiophiles IMO. That said, as I see it, there is nothing wrong with both objective and subjective assessments.

 

In the audio forum context, I believe the terms "objectivist" and "subjectivist" are often misnomers. The typical scenario for me is where the line gets all too often blurred would be objective factual data used as premise and then subjective conclusions interpreted.

 

I see myself as neither subjectivist nor objectivist and in this forum I have been admonished for being either one or the other. I like objective data when available and i like strong scientific evidence when available. The problem for me is that the quality of the data (eg innacuracies and irrelevancies relating to sensitivity and specificity of test measurements) and the absence of quality scientific evidence leaves us in doubt. I am left pondering on available evidence and coming to a subjective conclusion that best fits my world.

 

As I have said before, I am okay with doubt. I am uncertain about many things. People who are certain about things tend to frighten me. I'd rather have doubt than believe something that is wrong.

 

 

[motberg]

What do you guys think about adding sub-woofers in a DAC direct to amp system?

Is it OK to split a 2V RCA output and run a set of cables 1 meter to the amp, and another set to the subs maybe 4 meters each?

 

I get the feeling that most DAC makers generally are expecting the user to use a single set of outputs to a single receiving device.

 

[audiobomber]

1 hour ago, motberg said:

What do you guys think about adding sub-woofers in a DAC direct to amp system?

Is it OK to split a 2V RCA output and run a set of cables 1 meter to the amp, and another set to the subs maybe 4 meters each?

 

I get the feeling that most DAC makers generally are expecting the user to use a single set of outputs to a single receiving device.

 

That depends mostly on the DAC output capability and the load it will need to drive, i.e. the input impedance of the power amp and sub crossover. 

 

Initially I tried the above and was not satisfied. The sound was transparent and more detailed but music became boring (poor PRaT). I subsequently learned that the sub crossover I use has an input impedance of 6kΩ, and my power amps are 20kΩ. That's a combined load of 4.6kOhms. My DAC has very low input impedance, just a few ohms, but it could not provide sufficient current for this load. 

 

I found a solution though. I am running my monoblock power amps from the RCA outputs on my DAC/Pre. The DAC's XLR outputs are feeding a passive preamp with 50kΩ input impedance. The passive pre drives the sub crossover via RCA's. Combined load on the DAC is now 14kΩ. I am getting the best sound I've ever had.

 

Brand new, my analog preamp cost three times as much as my DAC/Pre. Nevertheless, I prefer the sound directly from DAC to amps. I ripped all my LP's and sold the preamp. 

 

One other more minor caveat. When I used an RCA splitter in a previous bi-amped system. I could always hear a slight deterioration due to the (high quality) splitter and ended up not using it.

[barrows]

4 hours ago, motberg said:

What do you guys think about adding sub-woofers in a DAC direct to amp system?

Is it OK to split a 2V RCA output and run a set of cables 1 meter to the amp, and another set to the subs maybe 4 meters each?

 

I get the feeling that most DAC makers generally are expecting the user to use a single set of outputs to a single receiving device.

 

I run a sub, but I always prefer to connect sub(s) to the amplifier output via a high level input rather than other connection schemes.

 

Alternatives: this will depend on DAC output stage design, but some DACs have separate output drivers for the balanced and single ended outputs, so, for example, one could run the balanced outputs to the amplifier, and the single ended output to the subwoofer-but one would be advised to check and make sure the single ended outputs and balanced outputs are separately driven.  I do not really recommend using any splitters, although it can work, I view this approach as a compromise.  Even the little $700.00 Topping D-90 DAC I am playing around with now has separate output drivers for the balanced and single ended outputs.

[PeterG]

On 3/25/2020 at 2:50 PM, barrows said:

tubes are now completely obsolete in the quest for the absolute best possible playback systems.  While I agree in many cases that tubes can improve a system in some instances, in some ways, the recent advances in the best SS circuits have eliminated all advantages tubes may have had int he past.  These advances are only heard in some components though, and it may be that many have not heard the best possible solid state systems.

 

I do not understand your thinking, or maybe it's that your thinking does not lead to a solution for more than an incredibly small number of people.  When you say "the best possible playback systems", I assume you mean that there are no tube amps that compete compete with a pair of $50-100K monoblocks.  If that's what you mean, I will not dispute that, but I do not understand why it is relevant in anything more than the theoretical sense to all but those who are prepared to drop $200K or more on their systems. 

 

But if we drop a zero off the end to get to ~$10K in amps, probably close to the median value of amp budgets among AS readers, we are not discussing "the best possible solid state systems", we are only discussing (hopefully) excellent amps.  In this range, it is easy for many to "improve a system" with tubes, even for those who have heard the best SS in that price ballpark.

[audiobomber]

47 minutes ago, barrows said:

I run a sub, but I always prefer to connect sub(s) to the amplifier output via a high level input rather than other connection schemes.

I did that for a while and it sounded decent, but not great. I am now running my subs through a miniDSP 2x4, which allows me to implement a more versatile crossover and DSP with auto filters via REW.

 

DSP filters and corrections brought the sound to a level not achievable with a traditional subwoofer crossover and amp. I am not aware of any way to implement DSP using high level sub inputs.

[DuckToller]

7 minutes ago, audiobomber said:

I am now running my subs through a miniDSP 2x4, which allows me to implement a more versatile crossover and DSP with auto filters via REW

Bonjour, Audiobomber.
Short question about miniDSP, do I assume correctly, that the signal for your Subs and your speakers will run through ADC-DAC conversion at 24/96 during the DSP? Please feel free to correct me about my assumption
I do have a 2x4miniDSP somewhere in the closet and may start testing during the confinement  period...
Cheers, DT

[barrows]

@PeterG,  By no means am I suggesting that one needs to spend 5 figures (or higher) to get excellent sound from a solid state amplifier.  In fact, with the current advent of class D amplifiers which outperform almost anything else available, one can spend a few thousand dollars and get amplification with absolutely fantastic sound quality.  I really do not know how you came to the conclusion that I was advocating for $50-$100 K mono blocks?  Nothing could be further from the truth.

Actually, when it comes to tube amplifiers, i would suggest the cost is very high for any decent sounding tube amps with enough power to drive real world, average sensitivity loudspeakers (ARC reference series, or VTL).

[barrows]

30 minutes ago, audiobomber said:

I did that for a while and it sounded decent, but not great. I am now running my subs through a miniDSP 2x4, which allows me to implement a more versatile crossover and DSP with auto filters via REW.

 

DSP filters and corrections brought the sound to a level not achievable with a traditional subwoofer crossover and amp. I am not aware of any way to implement DSP using high level sub inputs.

Sure, if one wants to use separate DSP then one is going to need a more complex system to incorporate that.  But this approach is an exception to the norm.  By no means am I saying that using DSP is not an advantage n some situations (and especially, rooms), but it is often not necessary, and overly complex.

I have integrated sub(s) into quite a few systems, in quite a few different rooms, without any need for additional DSP versus what is available in the subs themselves, but I accept that in some situations (rooms) this may not be possible.

[audiobomber]

1 minute ago, DuckToller said:

Bonjour, Audiobomber.
Short question about miniDSP, do I assume correctly, that the signal for your Subs and your speakers will run through ADC-DAC conversion at 24/96 during the DSP? Please feel free to correct me about my assumption
I do have a 2x4miniDSP somewhere in the closet and may start testing during the confinement  period...
Cheers, DT

I do not run my monitors through the miniDSP, they run full range. The monitors are sealed, with a Q of 0.7 and roll off naturally, second-order Butterworth. The subs roll in at  80HzBW2, with Auto EQ and room correction via REW. 

PS My miniDSP 2x4 is the base model, ADC-DAC conversion at 24/48.

[PeterG]

36 minutes ago, barrows said:

@PeterG,  By no means am I suggesting that one needs to spend 5 figures (or higher) to get excellent sound from a solid state amplifier.  In fact, with the current advent of class D amplifiers which outperform almost anything else available, one can spend a few thousand dollars and get amplification with absolutely fantastic sound quality.  I really do not know how you came to the conclusion that I was advocating for $50-$100 K mono blocks?  Nothing could be further from the truth.

Actually, when it comes to tube amplifiers, i would suggest the cost is very high for any decent sounding tube amps with enough power to drive real world, average sensitivity loudspeakers (ARC reference series, or VTL).

Your use of the phrase "absolute best" is what suggested monoblocks.  I agree that cost is high for tubes and low for Class D, but you kind of get what you pay for.

[barrows]

3 minutes ago, PeterG said:

Your use of the phrase "absolute best" is what suggested monoblocks.  I agree that cost is high for tubes and low for Class D, but you kind of get what you pay for.

No one needs to spend 5 figures on amplifiers to get absolute best sound quality.  Now loudspeakers, that is a different story!

[motberg]

8 hours ago, DuckToller said:

Bonjour, Audiobomber.
Short question about miniDSP, do I assume correctly, that the signal for your Subs and your speakers will run through ADC-DAC conversion at 24/96 during the DSP? Please feel free to correct me about my assumption
I do have a 2x4miniDSP somewhere in the closet and may start testing during the confinement  period...
Cheers, DT

I am also using the MiniDSP for subs... subs only, monitors running full range... the miniDSP 2x4 HD version was an audible upgrade from the prior model in my system.

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

10 hours ago, barrows said:

10 hours ago, PeterG said:

Your use of the phrase "absolute best" is what suggested monoblocks.  I agree that cost is high for tubes and low for Class D, but you kind of get what you pay for.

No one needs to spend 5 figures on amplifiers to get absolute best sound quality.

 

11 hours ago, barrows said:

the current advent of class D amplifiers which outperform almost anything else available

 

I have not heard Mola Mola Class D amps but are you saying they sound better than, or just as good,as, the best Class A amps? The "Absolute best" ?

 

IME absolute best sound quality for my ears has been pure class A SS amps and yes, they are expensive. YMMV. Having said that, I fully accept there is a law of diminishing returns and as said, I have not yet heard Mola Mola up against the best Class A amps.

 

But I have also heard good DIY class A designed amps that sound excellent without costing an arm and a leg.