Differences in sound: DAC vs. DAC + Pre-amplifier

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 minutes ago, barrows said:

Chris, that sounds like DC problem at the DAC output.  If the DAC exhibits DC problems like this, a preamp will sometimes eliminate them before they get to the AMP, as the preamp will have DC correction of some type (servo circuit, I believe int he Constellation gear).  Sometimes DACs will have a DC spike in between locking... a properly designed DAC "should" be muting its output to avoid this in between locking to new sample rates.  I have seen this in DIY DACs a bit, where we might not have the most sophisticated control software.  Raising the buffering in Roon can sometimes help this.

Of course, for a DAC designed to connect to an amplifier directly this would be considered a fault of the DAC design and the manufacturer should address it.

And that folks, is why Barrows gets the big bucks :~)

[barrows]

4 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

And that folks, is why Barrows gets the big bucks :~)

Hahaha!

 

I just checked Roon settings, try going to "device settings" and "resync delay" and increasing that buffer some.  This sometimes helps as it gives the DAC a bit more time to lock to a new sample rate.  With DIY DACs I tend to avoid mixed sample rate playlists for this reason, as the DIY DACs sometimes do not handle sample rate changes very elegantly.  I find a good test for these kinds of problems is running Roon Radio as then i get random changes of sample rate fairly often, i tend to keep the volume low for this kind of testing (if it is an unfamiliar DAC) just t be safe.

 

But in a commercial DAC this is something I would consider a fault, and should be addressed by the manufacturer.

[Abtr]

14 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

It’s frustrating to me because analog isn’t my specialty. I wish I understood what was going on. 

...

Does the DAC have a digital volume control? You could try to lower the DAC side volume. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

5 minutes ago, Abtr said:

Does the DAC have a digital volume control? 

Yes. 

[Abtr]

1 minute ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Yes. 

What happens if you lower the DAC side volume when using the preamp?

[The Computer Audiophile]

19 minutes ago, Abtr said:

What happens if you lower the DAC side volume when using the preamp?

Unfortunately I’ll never know. I sent the DAC back a while ago. 

[davide256]

2 hours ago, barrows said:

Hahaha!

 

I just checked Roon settings, try going to "device settings" and "resync delay" and increasing that buffer some.  This sometimes helps as it gives the DAC a bit more time to lock to a new sample rate.  With DIY DACs I tend to avoid mixed sample rate playlists for this reason, as the DIY DACs sometimes do not handle sample rate changes very elegantly.  I find a good test for these kinds of problems is running Roon Radio as then i get random changes of sample rate fairly often, i tend to keep the volume low for this kind of testing (if it is an unfamiliar DAC) just t be safe.

 

But in a commercial DAC this is something I would consider a fault, and should be addressed by the manufacturer.

Would setting all rates to one upsampled value do the same?

[barrows]

28 minutes ago, davide256 said:

Would setting all rates to one upsampled value do the same?

In many cases yes.  These kinds of noises can be tricky to sort out, often it is related to the USB receiver code, but problems can also be attributed to streamer code, and the DAC chip and how its muting works.  Setting a single sample rate going to the DAC can fix almost all apparent "problems" with the possible exception of a POP at the first startup, as the DAC may default to a different sample rate when idle, and then have to reset to the new sample rate.

 

In most cases though, the DAC manufacturer should really be sorting out these issues ,by making sure that their muting circuit works appropriately.  Mastering engineers could be considered partly to blame as well, as they could solve some of these "problems" by having a short period (even 500 mS would likely be adequate) of digital silence at the start of a file-of course they cannot due this for tracks which are gapless, but by doing this at the start of an album it woudl ay least solve many problems which might occur there.  Some DACs also incorporate sophisticated PLLs which require considerable time before they achieve a lock, this can be another problem (although it can also reduce jitter considerably) where the beginning of tracks may be cut off by the DAC muting until a lock is achieved.

 

When all we had was CD players, this was much simpler, now with computer sources, which can be different in how/when they present the file to the DAC, it can be quite complex to get every DAC working perfectly with every source.

[mevdinc]

On 5/24/2020 at 10:24 PM, SoundSparks said:

Dear experts:
I have been following this fruitful discussion closely and found it very informative. My experience auditioning Lindemann musicbook:10 DSD in two quality setups (PASS Labs and Simaudio MOON power and pre) clearly demonstrates I was unable to distinguish reliably DAC direct vs. preamp mode. It “seems” I preferred DAC direct in PASS setup, and preamp mode with Simaudio MOON. I can offer no explanation here, unfortunately enough…

I have the Musicbook 20 DSD, and Lindemann preamp section is well regarded. I am perfectly happy with the SQ.

[R1200CL]

On 3/30/2020 at 5:56 PM, barrows said:

My conclusion on amps, given what I have heard, is that one never needs anything more expensive than Mola Mola (OK, 5 figures there, although there are alternatives which should sound as good for $3K, i just have not heard them, same modules, and similar implementation).

As a happy owner of Theta monobloks Prometheus I couldn’t agree more 😀

ATI amps based on Hypex should be a reasonable alternative. 
 

Many others exist as well. Here is a Norwegian option 
 

[mevdinc]

New Lumin X1 has the digital volume Leedh integrated; lossless digital technology. 
I have been waiting for the Leedh digital volume implementation for sometime, and I hope most DACs use. Absolutely no need for an additional preamp for me, as I only listen to digital sources.
There's a review over on 6moons website.

[barrows]

3 hours ago, mevdinc said:

New Lumin X1 has the digital volume Leedh integrated; lossless digital technology. 
I have been waiting for the Leedh digital volume implementation for sometime, and I hope most DACs use. Absolutely no need for an additional preamp for me, as I only listen to digital sources.
There's a review over on 6moons website.

I am curious, where did you get the information that the X-1 has an LeedH volume control implementation?

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 minute ago, barrows said:

I am curious, where did you get the information that the X-1 has an LeedH volume control implementation?

 

[mevdinc]

2 hours ago, barrows said:

I am curious, where did you get the information that the X-1 has an LeedH volume control implementation?

Read the review over at 6moons, I didn't post the link, as I wasn't sure if it was against form rules.
From what I gather from the review is that this is something Lumin did very recently.

Anyway, Chris also shared a link to the information. 
I really look forward to hearing a DAC with the Leedh digital volume control.

[The Computer Audiophile]

Just now, mevdinc said:

Read the review over at 6moons, I didn't post the link, as I wasn't sure if it was against form rules.
From what I gather from the review is that this is something Lumin did very recently.

Anyway, Chris also shared a link to the information. 
I really look forward to hearing a DAC with the Leedh digital volume control.

Wish this would've been implemented when I had the X1 :~(

 

Cool development. 

[mevdinc]

12 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Wish this would've been implemented when I had the X1 :~(

 

Cool development. 

Chris,
Since it seems Lumin allows for a firmware upgrade across all the products, can you not do the same with your X1? Or is it just too expensive?

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 minutes ago, mevdinc said:

Chris,
Since it seems Lumin allows for a firmware upgrade across all the products, can you not do the same with your X1? Or is it just too expensive?

I had to send the X1 back :~(

[mevdinc]

2 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I had to send the X1 back :~(

That's a shame, I thought it was a simple software implementation and upgrade.

[Madra]

1 minute ago, mevdinc said:

That's a shame, I thought it was a simple software implementation and upgrade.

It is.

What Chris is saying is that he sent the X1 back after finishing his review and not for a Leedh upgrade.

[barrows]

As I am fully committed to sending DSD 256, the LeedH VC is not really applicable to my approach (unless it was in the server) and in the server, i suspect there is nothing better than what Jussi already does in HQPlayer.  But it is cool to see Lumin incorporate it.

I wonder whatever happened to the "rumor" that Damien was going to integrate LeedH into Audirvana?

[matthias]

14 minutes ago, barrows said:

As I am fully committed to sending DSD 256, the LeedH VC is not really applicable to my approach (unless it was in the server) and in the server, i suspect there is nothing better than what Jussi already does in HQPlayer.  But it is cool to see Lumin incorporate it.

I wonder whatever happened to the "rumor" that Damien was going to integrate LeedH into Audirvana?

 

Agree, 

AFAIK, for applying the Leedh VC DSD must be converted to DXD and then back to DSD.

Jussis algorithms are much more sophisticated, AFAIK he does VC for DSD in DSD domain.

AFAIK, no Leedh VC for Audirvana.

 

Matt

[barrows]

22 minutes ago, matthias said:

 

Agree, 

AFAIK, for applying the Leedh VC DSD must be converted to DXD and then back to DSD.

Jussis algorithms are much more sophisticated, AFAIK he does VC for DSD in DSD domain.

AFAIK, no Leedh VC for Audirvana.

 

Matt

Hmm, LeedH will not even operate in DSD wide?  If that is true then even the volume control in the ESS chip works better than LeedH for DSD, as it operates in DSD wide (it does not reduce sample rate, it just converts the DSD to multibit, but keeping the high sample rate).  If LeedH down converts to 352.8/384 that is a backwards step for DSD.

 

Jussi does not disclose how his VC works, but I assume it is at least in DSD wide.  Of course with the computing power required for HQPlayer, there are probably a lot of tricky options, and Jussi is really, really sharp!

 

I have never seen a published description of the workings of the LeedH, is there one anywhere?

[matthias]

40 minutes ago, barrows said:

 

I have never seen a published description of the workings of the LeedH, is there one anywhere?

 

Maybe here:

 

https://6moons.com/audioreview_articles/lumin8/

 

and here:

 

 

Matt

[mevdinc]

1 hour ago, Madra said:

It is.

What Chris is saying is that he sent the X1 back after finishing his review and not for a Leedh upgrade.

Of course, that's exactly what he said, silly me. LoL
 

[mevdinc]

1 hour ago, matthias said:

 

Agree, 

AFAIK, for applying the Leedh VC DSD must be converted to DXD and then back to DSD.

Jussis algorithms are much more sophisticated, AFAIK he does VC for DSD in DSD domain.

AFAIK, no Leedh VC for Audirvana.

 

Matt

At one point it was said that Audirvana would be one of the early adapters. But, still no news.