Audiophile Power Cables

[mansr]

Why don't we amuse ourselves by picking apart the recording instead of bickering? I saved the audio stream that Firefox happened to pick and got a ~96 kbps stereo 48 kHz Opus file. The recording is actually monophonic, though due to encoding artefacts the two channels have slight differences here and there. A sharp low-pass filter has been applied at 20 kHz, probably by the Opus encoder.

 

Next step, split the audio into per-cable chunks containing matching segments of audio. The result is attached, numbered according to the order in the video.

 

An immediately obvious difference is that the RMS levels vary wildly between the segments, 2.7 dB between the loudest and the softest. The average spectrum for these two looks like this:

 

Clearly, there is more than just a level difference here. How much of this is due to the lossy encoding is anyone's guess. An initial level difference can easily affect the decisions on what to discard.

bacon-ac.zip

[marce]

25 minutes ago, Blackmorec said:

Now there’s a good question!!! Really, Genuinely, Sincerely, Why is a system that shows up shortcomings in cables considered good?  They should really be immune to such changes because having a simple cable change affect sound quality cannot be considered a good trait, surely?  And I would agree, no it can’t....because its a royal pain in the arse. I’ve paid good money for XTZ, why should I pay more to extract its full capability?

 

But on reflection,  I can only answer your question one way, and that is to say that all those systems that are genuinely considered to be amongst the very best....not the most expensive necessarily, but the most musical, the most revealing, the most accurate and detailed, the most thrilling, all do it. From the latest super servers and amplifier, down to simple NUCs they are all reported to be cable sensitive So while we’ve learned how to make systems that can sound utterly exceptional, it seems we haven’t yet learned how to make them immune to the effects of their power cables, regardless of how good their power supplies, their isolation from noise etc etc.  So, we can say that very good hi-fi shows up shortcomings in cables, unless of course you think we have a global conspiracy for the benefit of a few cable manufacturers. Moving to those that don’t show up differences; well there’s 2 possible reasons....either they’re special and superior to the ones that do show the differences, or they’re inferior and don’t actually have the capability to show the differences...there are no other alternatives that I can think of. 

So let’s say its the former and the systems are superior. How come no-one, not one person, not a single manufacturer promotes the fact that they’ve managed to engineer a product that it totally independent of mains quality?  Nor has any audio journalist, who between them must have heard thousands of different components, reported even once that changing power cables on a component had absolutely no effect. If anyone is aware of such an article, please post a link. Personally I’m not. So how can I reach any other conclusion than its down to system resolving power? Elitist thinking? Maybe But nowhere have I seen, heard or read about a single component that is immune to main cable changes, other than on Forums. Should we expect that? Well statistically speaking yes. In a large enough population sound quality is going to vary over a normal Gaussian distribution, where the probability density function can be described by 2 values, mean and standard deviation.  So in a large population like a Forum, there are going to be some members who own systems whose SQ is insuffiecient to detect cable differences. 

Unlike the rest of the electronics, only audiophile systems suffer from this...

Think about this, the wavelength of your mains (Vf=80%) is 4,000 km, so its not even going to notice a 1-2m cable...

[marce]

29 minutes ago, Blackmorec said:

 we have a global conspiracy for the benefit of a few cable manufacturers.

 

[pkane2001]

48 minutes ago, Blackmorec said:

But on reflection,  I can only answer your question one way, and that is to say that all those systems that are genuinely considered to be amongst the very best....not the most expensive necessarily, but the most musical, the most revealing, the most accurate and detailed, the most thrilling, all do it.

 

I can answer it another way: mostly poorly engineered components are sensitive to the vagaries of a power cord. Given these two possibilities, how does one decide which one is true of a particular system? Poor engineering or extreme transparency?

 

48 minutes ago, Blackmorec said:

Maybe But nowhere have I seen, heard or read about a single component that is immune to main cable changes, other than on Forums.

 

My experience is exactly the opposite: nowhere are power cords considered a problem requiring a solution, except for on audiophile forums (assuming, of course, the power cable is of proper gauge to carry the maximum current.) 

[botrytis]

41 minutes ago, Kimo said:

 

Can't argue with any of this, though I question how much the bias really reflects results for some people.  I use Mogami, Apogee, and Belden though out the system, along with the power cord that came with the unit.  Even the cheap pro stuff doesn't necessarily sound identical though.  

 

Well, sighted bias is a known issue, hence why double blind testing is used in drugs, wine, alcohol and food testing.

 

http://asq.org/statistics/2010/02/design-of-experiments/when-people-are-the-instrument-sensory-evaluation-methods.pdf

 

 

[kumakuma]

3 hours ago, sandyk said:

 

 Yet once again,  ably demonstrated by Marce and a few other members is their  utter contempt for all Subjective reports in a Forum that is only financially viable because of the support of it's Hi Fi industry advertisers.  

 

Chris's recent purchase of new Wilson speakers suggests this isn't something you need to worry your pretty little head about.

[marce]

Watt these...

https://www.hificorner.co.uk/wilson-audio-wamm-master-chronosonic-floorstanding-loudspeakers.html?gclid=CjwKCAjw-vjqBRA6EiwAe8TCk457M4uLUvsfXDQo6SxbuivmBgvDTLt_Fzua70DZ-1fTJ0MRlP2y6xoC7mYQAvD_BwE#fo_c=1460&fo_k=343ac5538fe9ee67f2046dbf62370f79&fo_s=gplauk

 

They look like they may turn into an angry robot if you use a wimpy power chord...

[botrytis]

4 minutes ago, marce said:

Watt these...

https://www.hificorner.co.uk/wilson-audio-wamm-master-chronosonic-floorstanding-loudspeakers.html?gclid=CjwKCAjw-vjqBRA6EiwAe8TCk457M4uLUvsfXDQo6SxbuivmBgvDTLt_Fzua70DZ-1fTJ0MRlP2y6xoC7mYQAvD_BwE#fo_c=1460&fo_k=343ac5538fe9ee67f2046dbf62370f79&fo_s=gplauk

 

They look like they may turn into an angry robot if you use a wimpy power chord...

 

If you can afford the WAMMS, I think power cords are a drop in the bucket price.

 

No, these are what Chris got - https://www.wilsonaudio.com/products/alexia-series-2

[Kimo]

1 hour ago, botrytis said:

 

Well, sighted bias is a known issue, hence why double blind testing is used in drugs, wine, alcohol and food testing.

 

http://asq.org/statistics/2010/02/design-of-experiments/when-people-are-the-instrument-sensory-evaluation-methods.pdf

 

 

 

Sounds like some of the parties I attended in my slightly misspent youth.

[Ralf11]

7 hours ago, Blackmorec said:

a few more influential factors.

1. Cable geometry and ability to reject noise

2. Dielectric materials 

3. Fuse material and contacts

4. Cryogenic processing which does seem to affect either metallurgy,  junctions or both

5. Chrystal structure and purity of the conductors

 

In the end I believe your list plus mine encompass pretty much every power cable in existence

 

only #1 has any likelihood of affecting SQ in a power cable - and it is not very likely

 

BTW, who is "Chrystal" ??

 

the important thing is to discover which power cable is The Chosen One

 

 

[Blackmorec]

2 hours ago, marce said:

Unlike the rest of the electronics, only audiophile systems suffer from this...

Think about this, the wavelength of your mains (Vf=80%) is 4,000 km, so its not even going to notice a 1-2m cable...

Unlike the rest of electronics, audiophile systems are the only ones that convert AC power into music. And somewhere in that rather complex conversion.........

Anyway, let’s think for a minute about 50 or 60Hz electricity travelling along a cable.......what do the electrons actually do and how do they interact with the cable conductors, the dielectric etc.

 

Describe for me how current passes down a cable at the atomic level.  

[mansr]

15 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

BTW, who is "Chrystal" ??

Miss Meth?

[Ralf11]

I'd be glad to do that, Blac, but not on the internet.  You would also have to show you have the pre-requisite course work or it would just be a waste of time.

[pkane2001]

3 minutes ago, Blackmorec said:

Unlike the rest of electronics, audiophile systems are the only ones that convert AC power into music. And somewhere in that rather complex conversion.........

Anyway, let’s think for a minute about 50 or 60Hz electricity travelling along a cable.......what do the electrons actually do and how do they interact with the cable conductors, the dielectric etc.

 

Describe for me how current passes down a cable at the atomic level.  

 

A somewhat simple case of converting electricity into music is now the most complex problem known to mankind. Yet, there are far more demanding applications than audio reproduction. Some where noise, RFI, ground issues, cable properties, circuit topology, component tolerances, etc. are much, much more critical than in audio. And yet, none of them use audiophile power cables. Why do you think that is?

[Ralf11]

ok, I have an idea - Blac, I bet you can find a wiki on transformers and one on impedance.  Those would make a good satrt on how unlikely it is.

[marce]

1 hour ago, Blackmorec said:

Unlike the rest of electronics, audiophile systems are the only ones that convert AC power into music. And somewhere in that rather complex conversion.........

Anyway, let’s think for a minute about 50 or 60Hz electricity travelling along a cable.......what do the electrons actually do and how do they interact with the cable conductors, the dielectric etc.

 

Describe for me how current passes down a cable at the atomic level.  

Pro audio... As to audio being complex, not really ADC/DAC is everywhere far more complex conversion goes on, there are DACs and ADC's that work in the mega samples, then there is getting as near as possible to true 24 bit conversion, that's fun layout (look at the complexity of reading some of today's exotic CCD sensors, real fun analogue/digital.

Electrons don't interact with the dielectric, its the waves... In fact the electrons don't do a lot, they wiggle a few um, so don't travel very far or very fast in fact very, very slow... The cables are a wave guide in reality, all the exciting stuff happens between the hot and return conductor, in the dielectric, but at 50/60Hz we don't have to worry about dielectric absorption or other high speed constraints. In fact I would say getting mains from a wall socket to a bit of kit is probably one of the most basic connections we make, but basic dos not sell cables.

Anyway Bass practice time now for me, trying Every Breath you Take at the moment! Bloody hard when your 58 and just started again after 35 years, the joints creak, the fingers go at their own speed and the kids are embarrassed to bring their mates home to an old Dad grooving on a bass!

Interesting how playing again focus's the mind on listening to the music and the better the replay the better you can hear into the mix and pick out the separate instruments, probably why I'm an audiophile...😀

[Axial]

7 hours ago, marce said:

Yep, not the best way of testing for subtle differences.... Even my wife in the kitchen couldn't hear the differences, which shocked me...😂

 

Mister, there are discernible listening differences. ...To my set of ears. 

...In regards to Audio Bakon music video on Power cords. 

Anecdotal and @ low res. If @ high res it would be even more "stimulating".

...Not the music, the comparison. 

 

* Did you notice the vertical Samsung television? 

[Axial]

7 hours ago, marce said:

It seems that it is OK to promote an Audiophile myth, bit not to disagree, if the Chihuahua brigade stop snapping at my ankles because I disagree with a myth and post some science that supports the myth it would be a more interesting discussion.

Ankle protectors on!🤣

 

You first mister, you post science instead of mechanical multiple posts like an auto AK-47 @ random. Hey, about that! 

• https://shop.ilovegrowingmarijuana.com/products/ak-47-autoflowering?variant=821323081

 

* Just an anecdote, empirical none. Read the full article, listen to the full video, be smart and humble we can all use some. Then come back all freshed up for the second round. 

[marce]

9 minutes ago, Axial said:

 

You first mister, you post science instead of mechanical multiple posts like an auto AK-47 @ random. Hey, about that! 

• https://shop.ilovegrowingmarijuana.com/products/ak-47-autoflowering?variant=821323081

 

* Just an anecdote, empirical none. Read the full article, listen to the full video, be smart and humble we can all use some. Then come back all freshed up for the second round. 

Ha ha ha nice, pass the papers.

[Axial]

6 hours ago, STC said:

I am listening (not watching) to another video of his. They are using different cables/speakers. Can you guess which one sounds better without watching the video?

 

 

 

 

When closing my eyes I hear different room's acoustics, different loudspeakers, different audio gear...different systems, cables, music, everything different. 

[One and a half]

9 hours ago, marce said:

So provide some real science behind the differences instead of just sprouting the usual true believer stuff... That would be a change, some real content to a cable thread.

Please provide then real science why AC cables from different manufacturers should not make any audible difference.

[Axial]

6 hours ago, mansr said:

Why don't we amuse ourselves by picking apart the recording instead of bickering? I saved the audio stream that Firefox happened to pick and got a ~96 kbps stereo 48 kHz Opus file. The recording is actually monophonic, though due to encoding artefacts the two channels have slight differences here and there. A sharp low-pass filter has been applied at 20 kHz, probably by the Opus encoder.

 

Next step, split the audio into per-cable chunks containing matching segments of audio. The result is attached, numbered according to the order in the video.

 

An immediately obvious difference is that the RMS levels vary wildly between the segments, 2.7 dB between the loudest and the softest. The average spectrum for these two looks like this:

 

Clearly, there is more than just a level difference here. How much of this is due to the lossy encoding is anyone's guess. An initial level difference can easily affect the decisions on what to discard.

bacon-ac.zip 36.19 MB · 1 download

 

Send that to Mr. Bacon and see his reply. Do it, just do it. 

[Ralf11]

12 minutes ago, Axial said:

 

When closing my eyes I hear different room's acoustics, different loudspeakers, different audio gear...different systems, cables, music, everything different. 

 

ouvre tes yeux

[Axial]

5 hours ago, botrytis said:

 

Well, sighted bias is a known issue, hence why double blind testing is used in drugs, wine, alcohol and food testing.

 

http://asq.org/statistics/2010/02/design-of-experiments/when-people-are-the-instrument-sensory-evaluation-methods.pdf

 

 

 

With drugs, tobacco and alcohol  (fine wine and food too) we have different batches and aging every year. It's different, all is different. ...Same with cars and oil and gas and taxes. ...Same with children from one year to the next...with men and women. 

Some change, others hardly, some for the better others with consistency.

[Axial]

12 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

 

ouvre tes yeux

 

I hear no differences between my eyes close or open, all is different still. 

 

* Nice, you speak French. 😎