Double Blind Testing Prices All Power Cords Have An Effect On Audio!!!!!

[Paul R]

34 minutes ago, mansr said:

I know who he is. Not that it matters. He could be Jesus Christ, and the bit I quoted would still be nonsense.

 

Really now? I thought it was a collective effort primarily by all the people, none of which are Gordon, listed as contributors in the USB and USB Audio Class specs.

 

Nope- He wrote the first usable audio software, commonly referred to as asynchronous audio mode these days. Essentially, we would not have USB Audio today without Gordon, and the old style audio was absolutely horrendous. Or to put it another way, it sounded like crap. 

 

You don't have the chops to make judgements on the subject friend. 

 

 

34 minutes ago, mansr said:

Sure is. The statements George attributed to Gordon are nonsensical in the context of the USB spec. It is of course possible that George misunderstood something.

 

George's retelling may or may not be totally accurate, but  it is not nonsense.  

 

-Paul 

 

[Paul R]

2 hours ago, mansr said:

Knowing the truth and telling lies are not mutually exclusive.

 

 

 

Gordon is not lying, and neither are the dozens of people here who do not agree with you. In this case, you are simply wrong and need to move on to another subject. 

 

-Paul 

 

[Paul R]

36 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

I don’t dismiss the lot. For instance, speaker cables can really make a difference, but there is a real reason for that. Amplifiers and speakers interact far more than say the output of a DAC and the input of an amp or preamp, which just need to be connected together by a reasonable length of coax. Although RG-59 has the closest impedance match, in the half-meter to 2 meter lengths commonly used in a domestic audio set-up, it’s not all that critical. 

But speaker cable (depending on the run length) can be critical to proper speaker performance. Some speakers are very cable sensitive and others (like Magnepans) don’t give a damn. 14 Ga zip cord is as good as a $10,000 run of MIT as far as they are concerned, but mY Martin Logan’s are somewhat cable sensitive. This is because the wire run becomes part of the impedance profile of the speaker an Hereford is part of the load the amp sees.

on the other hand, interconnect sound and especially mains cable sound is just nonsense with absolutely no since behind it.

 

Depends upon the interconnect doesn't it?  Turntables for instance. 

 

In this case, even though I mostly agree with you, people are not as easily fooled as one might think, especially not over time. Reports of power cable improvements are consistent over time. Reports of USB cable differences are consistent over time.  

 

I certainly agree with you on speaker cables, though my Maggies just adore Nordost 4 flat cables. They are happy with 12g zip cord as well. Not so much with AntiCables for some reason.

[mansr]

13 minutes ago, Paul R said:

Gordon is not lying

He is making incorrect statements. If he isn't lying, it can only mean he doesn't know better. Either way, he is not a reliable source of information.

[Paul R]

3 minutes ago, mansr said:

He is making incorrect statements. If he isn't lying, it can only mean he doesn't know better. Either way, he is not a reliable source of information.

 

Rankin is not making incorrect statements and he is not lying, and he certainly knows more than you or I do. 

He is an incredibly reliable source of information. 

 

[Richard Dale]

1 hour ago, Ralf11 said:

 

it was a general comment

 

R. Dale - try a simple textbook first

A textbook about what?

[pkane2001]

2 minutes ago, Paul R said:

 

Rankin is not making incorrect statements and he is not lying, and he certainly knows more than you or I do. 

He is an incredibly reliable source of information. 

 

These arguments repeat with such regularity and precision that I feel we are all stuck in a groundhog day scenario. 😱

 

Is there any way for us to move forward, beyond the discussion of who is a bigger authority? Break out from this “strange loop”, so to speak?

 

[Ralf11]

how about a listening test

 

or measurements?

 

or anything besides   "I spent a lot of money so it sounds great!"

[Allan F]

2 hours ago, mansr said:

Really now? I thought it was a collective effort primarily by all the people, none of which are Gordon, listed as contributors in the USB and USB Audio Class specs.

 

Gordon Rankin is often credited with writing the code for asynchronous USB, which made USB a practical reality for quality sound reproduction. I believe that dCS takes issue with that claim. In any case, Rankin did write the asynchronous USB code used by Ayre and many other DAC manufacturers.

[Paul R]

30 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

These arguments repeat with such regularity and precision that I feel we are all stuck in a groundhog day scenario. 😱

 

Is there any way for us to move forward, beyond the discussion of who is a bigger authority? Break out from this “strange loop”, so to speak?

 

 

Sure, but it takes years. People have to have time to grow up and realize the difference between an internet expert and a real one. Then of course, a new crop will join in with the same old stuff yet again. And they will complain that people do not recognize their genius - look!! I have discovered that high resolution audio really does sound better than MP3s!!! Aren't I brilliant?! 

 

And of course, the different groups just wonder why everyone else does not shut up and believe their side of the story!   Can’t they see??!! Tunnel vision extreme!

 

Really is ruining not only our hobby, but dozens of others too. Don’t think it canbe changed however, not without draconian sanctions anyway. 

 

Sad to realize that we will never again know as much as we did on the day we graduated. 

[mansr]

40 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

These arguments repeat with such regularity and precision that I feel we are all stuck in a groundhog day scenario. 😱

 

Is there any way for us to move forward, beyond the discussion of who is a bigger authority? Break out from this “strange loop”, so to speak?

We could start by evaluating claims without regard for who made them. In the case at hand, this is as simple as referencing them against a freely available specification.

[fas42]

11 hours ago, marce said:

This is measurable and if its altering the analogue output then the design is flawed.

 

The truth is that nearly all audio equipment is flawed, in the sense that it's susceptible to inteference effects which cause audible anomalies - carefully done measurements could reveal this, but no-one is interested in going there ...

[fas42]

9 hours ago, BrokeLinuxPhile said:

Sometimes things get grey for me while building my tube amps, they can be weird.  I make them sound better by listening carefully, measuring, and relying more on personal experience than book knowledge.  Some tubes like to run hot, some not, based on tube type the way they interact with other types changes.  It's challenging, that's why i love it so much they are difficult to characterize.

 

 

A story recounted in another forum I rather cherish - chap was involved with a show demo which used the eccentric Jadis valve amps. Not exactly brillantly made, this unit all of a sudden went into meltdown - the tubes flipped into furnace mode internally, blazing with ferocious light - the interesting bit was, the music, which was still going, had become glorious!! Best sound reproduction he had ever experienced; it was, for him, an epiphany.

 

Couldn't last of course ... after some minutes, the valves succumbed to their harikari ritual, and all was silent. Since then, he had never heard playback that impressive again ...

[fas42]

I find these conversations to be like a tribal dancing ceremony - a whole sequence of movements takes place, carefully choreographed, and completely predictable ... one side asserts that they "know everything", and the other that they don't; back and forth, back and forth, neither yielding an inch - until they retreat to the bar, satisfied that they have put in their daily quota; God's in His heaven ...

[pkane2001]

28 minutes ago, mansr said:

We could start by evaluating claims without regard for who made them. In the case at hand, this is as simple as referencing them against a freely available specification.

 

I guess I'm as willing as the next guy to continue arguing. But once I come to the realization that I'm in a spinning wheel, I'd much rather put my energy into figuring a way out.

[pkane2001]

2 minutes ago, fas42 said:

I find these conversations to be like a tribal dancing ceremony - a whole sequence of movements takes place, carefully choreographed, and completely predictable ... one side asserts that they "know everything", and the other that they don't; back and forth, back and forth, neither yielding an inch - until they retreat to the bar, satisfied that they have put in their daily quota; God's in His heaven ...

 

It feels exactly like that

[mansr]

5 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

I guess I'm as willing as the next guy to continue arguing. But once I come to the realization that I'm in a spinning wheel, I'd much rather put my energy into figuring a way out.

Fair point. Then again, sometimes it's amusing to see just how deep a hole someone is willing to dig himself into.

[sandyk]

While we are on the subject of Gordon Rankin, attached are links to some light background reading.

 

https://www.audiostream.com/content/draft?page=1

http://www.audiostream.com/content/theres-no-such-thing-digital-conversation-charles-hansen-gordon-rankin-and-steve-silberman-p

[Allan F]

1 hour ago, Paul R said:

Sad to realize that we will never again know as much as we did on the day we graduated. 

 

It goes back far earlier than that.

[Hugo9000]

 

1 hour ago, pkane2001 said:

 

These arguments repeat with such regularity and precision that I feel we are all stuck in a groundhog day scenario. 😱

 

Is there any way for us to move forward, beyond the discussion of who is a bigger authority? Break out from this “strange loop”, so to speak?

 

How about switching sides for laughs?

 

For a change, the scientists/engineers/etc. could bring up the most tangential issues that aren't already staked out by vendors, and elaborate on possible mechanisms of effect on signal transmission and final system sound quality.  This could result in abetting certain companies by offering new pseudoscience to be used by them in marketing the latest overpriced cable or piece of audio gear, but it could be amusing for you to give people some other nonsense to fret over.  Surely there are one or two scientific principles or effects known to physics that aren't already being twisted?  For that matter, why restrict yourself to misapplying real science, make some things up that can be presented plausibly.  Get creative!

 

😁

 

Yeah, this ignores your desire to find a way forward--sorry!   

[pkane2001]

26 minutes ago, Hugo9000 said:

 

How about switching sides for laughs?

 

For a change, the scientists/engineers/etc. could bring up the most tangential issues that aren't already staked out by vendors, and elaborate on possible mechanisms of effect on signal transmission and final system sound quality.  This could result in abetting certain companies by offering new pseudoscience to be used by them in marketing the latest overpriced cable or piece of audio gear, but it could be amusing for you to give people some other nonsense to fret over.  Surely there are one or two scientific principles or effects known to physics that aren't already being twisted?  For that matter, why restrict yourself to misapplying real science, make some things up that can be presented plausibly.  Get creative!

 

😁

 

Yeah, this ignores your desire to find a way forward--sorry!   

 

Been there, done that. Still might be better doing what you suggest than taking part, for the 100th time, in the Kabuki dance Frank so aptly described

[Paul R]

1 hour ago, mansr said:

We could start by evaluating claims without regard for who made them. In the case at hand, this is as simple as referencing them against a freely available specification.

 

Seriously?  How then do you intend to judge the validity of a statement?  Simply on whim? Does that mean that we should all take Frank's ideas at face value? Or simply ideas you approve of? 

 

My dad used to say the the devil was the best bible quoter ever. There is some truth to that. 

 

-Paul 

 

P.S. I am not totally unsympathetic to your suggestion by the way, but I am a bit tired of people setting themselves up to judge what they think they know, but sometimes don't. And there are people, I don't include you in this, who refuse to do the work to find out for themselves. Rather set themselves up like tin horn gods. 

 

[AudioDoctor]

You guys went crazy over this satirical article...

 

I am never doing this again.

[fas42]

Promise?

[AudioDoctor]

Yes.