shtf Posted April 22, 2019 Share Posted April 22, 2019 On 4/15/2019 at 7:08 PM, AudioDoctor said: You guys got way too serious about a tongue in cheek satirical article and totally missed my brilliant explanation of how it works... Let's say everybody in Smalltown, USA has been driving around on a gasoline containing 81 octane max for as long as they can remember. All the vehicles in town are sputtering, stalling, lacking hp and torque, short mean-time-between-failure-rates for engine parts, poor mpg, overall engine inefficiencies leading to shorter engine lifespanse, etc. Then somebody posts a tongue-in-cheek comment in the local newspaper's op/ed section mocking a newly developed fuel they heard about containing 93 octane promising improved hp, torque, and mpg, no more sputters and stalls, overall improved engine efficiencies, longer MTBF rates, quieter operation, and overall longer more enjoyable troublefree engine lifespans. Yes, I think I understand the tongue-in-cheek humor. It's a good one. The more I dabble with extreme forms of electrical mgmt. and extreme forms of vibration mgmt., the more I’m convinced it’s all just variations of managing mechanical energy. Or was it all just variations of managing electrical energy? No, it’s all just variations of mechanical energy. Wait. It's all just variations of managing electrical energy. -Me Link to comment
AudioDoctor Posted April 22, 2019 Author Share Posted April 22, 2019 I think a more apt analogy for your example would be someone telling you that fitting a new gas line from the tank to your engine will solve all your problems... No electron left behind. Link to comment
shtf Posted April 22, 2019 Share Posted April 22, 2019 6 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said: I think a more apt analogy for your example would be someone telling you that fitting a new gas line from the tank to your engine will solve all your problems... I agree. How's this? Let's say everybody in Smalltown, USA has been driving around in vehicles containing too restrictive fuel lines for as long as they can remember. All the vehicles in town are sputtering, stalling, lacking hp and torque, short mean-time-between-failure-rates for engine parts, poor mpg, overall engine inefficiencies leading to shorter engine lifespanse, etc. Then somebody posts a tongue-in-cheek comment in the local newspaper's op/ed section mocking a newly developed fuel line they heard about allowing a sufficient flow of fuel to meet an engine's fuel demands promising improved hp, torque, and mpg, no more sputters and stalls, overall improved engine efficiencies, longer MTBF rates, quieter operation, and overall longer more enjoyable troublefree engine lifespans. Yes, I think I understand the tongue-in-cheek humor. It's still a good one. The more I dabble with extreme forms of electrical mgmt. and extreme forms of vibration mgmt., the more I’m convinced it’s all just variations of managing mechanical energy. Or was it all just variations of managing electrical energy? No, it’s all just variations of mechanical energy. Wait. It's all just variations of managing electrical energy. -Me Link to comment
Popular Post AudioDoctor Posted April 22, 2019 Author Popular Post Share Posted April 22, 2019 Every electrical device sold in the US has to be UL Listed and one of the mandates they make is that the power cord has to carry the current the device can draw... Teresa, phosphorein, Ralf11 and 1 other 2 1 1 No electron left behind. Link to comment
BrokeLinuxPhile Posted April 22, 2019 Share Posted April 22, 2019 I could see upgrading a cord in SOME cases, surely not all though. I've worked with some HID ballasts in the 400W range and they only include usually an 18awg cable with it. Just not enough conductor diameter to do the job properly IMO, there is huge inrush to account for and an 18awg cord will get physically warm after a few hrs of use. But that assembly passed UL/CE/FCC certification as designed, with the included cord. It's a marginal pass though, barely making the cut. Upgrade the cord and things just run safer, not necessarily performing better. Shielding mattered more years ago when we dealt with CRT's, especially computer monitors. They dumped airborne noise in audible part of spectrum and shielding would help a lot. Emissions from modern PCs and LCDs is nothing in comparison to back in the 90's. Link to comment
AudioDoctor Posted April 23, 2019 Author Share Posted April 23, 2019 11 hours ago, BrokeLinuxPhile said: I could see upgrading a cord in SOME cases, surely not all though. I've worked with some HID ballasts in the 400W range and they only include usually an 18awg cable with it. Just not enough conductor diameter to do the job properly IMO, there is huge inrush to account for and an 18awg cord will get physically warm after a few hrs of use. But that assembly passed UL/CE/FCC certification as designed, with the included cord. It's a marginal pass though, barely making the cut. Upgrade the cord and things just run safer, not necessarily performing better. Shielding mattered more years ago when we dealt with CRT's, especially computer monitors. They dumped airborne noise in audible part of spectrum and shielding would help a lot. Emissions from modern PCs and LCDs is nothing in comparison to back in the 90's. You do make a good point here. No electron left behind. Link to comment
Popular Post gmgraves Posted April 25, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted April 25, 2019 On 4/22/2019 at 6:05 AM, BrokeLinuxPhile said: I could see upgrading a cord in SOME cases, surely not all though. I've worked with some HID ballasts in the 400W range and they only include usually an 18awg cable with it. Just not enough conductor diameter to do the job properly IMO, there is huge inrush to account for and an 18awg cord will get physically warm after a few hrs of use. But that assembly passed UL/CE/FCC certification as designed, with the included cord. It's a marginal pass though, barely making the cut. Upgrade the cord and things just run safer, not necessarily performing better. Shielding mattered more years ago when we dealt with CRT's, especially computer monitors. They dumped airborne noise in audible part of spectrum and shielding would help a lot. Emissions from modern PCs and LCDs is nothing in comparison to back in the 90's. There is an old saying; one with more than a modicum of truth to it. To wit: “The mind sees what it wants to see.” We can expand that bit of wisdom to say “The mind also HEARS what it wants to hear!” AudioDoctor, Ralf11 and STC 2 1 George Link to comment
AnotherSpin Posted April 25, 2019 Share Posted April 25, 2019 2 hours ago, gmgraves said: There is an old saying; one with more than a modicum of truth to it. To wit: “The mind sees what it wants to see.” We can expand that bit of wisdom to say “The mind also HEARS what it wants to hear!” You could add or remove an important change into the sound system, but the mind will hear what it hears anyway after very short adaptation period. What it used and expects to hear. STC 1 Link to comment
sandyk Posted April 25, 2019 Share Posted April 25, 2019 2 hours ago, gmgraves said: “The mind also HEARS what it wants to hear!” That applies especially to many of the Objective members of this forum ! Teresa 1 How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file. PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020 Link to comment
sandyk Posted April 25, 2019 Share Posted April 25, 2019 On 4/22/2019 at 11:05 PM, BrokeLinuxPhile said: Emissions from modern PCs and LCDs is nothing in comparison to back in the 90's. But it has been replaced in many cases by cheap LED lighting SMPS power supplies. How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file. PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020 Link to comment
shtf Posted April 25, 2019 Share Posted April 25, 2019 On 4/21/2019 at 8:42 PM, AudioDoctor said: Every electrical device sold in the US has to be UL Listed and one of the mandates they make is that the power cord has to carry the current the device can draw... And what does that have to do with the price of tea in China? Fine. Then go back to my original analogy and apply your UL comment to that. The more I dabble with extreme forms of electrical mgmt. and extreme forms of vibration mgmt., the more I’m convinced it’s all just variations of managing mechanical energy. Or was it all just variations of managing electrical energy? No, it’s all just variations of mechanical energy. Wait. It's all just variations of managing electrical energy. -Me Link to comment
BrokeLinuxPhile Posted April 25, 2019 Share Posted April 25, 2019 7 hours ago, sandyk said: But it has been replaced in many cases by cheap LED lighting SMPS power supplies. Levels aren't the same though. My roommate would turn on my PC in college and the CRT television in our dorm room would go from crystal clear picture to nothing but snow, instantly. And the PC was 20ft away from the TV antenna. That is a LOT of energy. FCC cracked down on a ton of industries about a decade ago. Lighting was one industry, another I remember well was guitar effects. If you generate any frequency above 10khz the FCC will come at you hard if you aren't filtering properly. Ballast mfgs and pedal makers were hit hard with fines, some went out of business. But the end result has been much clearer airwaves and power lines here in the states, things may be different elsewhere. One thing that drives me nuts though is the growing DIY LED lighting industry. Most of the boost/buck converters being sold for this on amazon are less than $20 and have no certifications at all. Only a few run well with low noise levels, most are mass produced spectrum polluting junk. They get away with it by classifying the device as a part/diy assembly and not a finished product. Sneaky. I just hate those self-ballasted bulbs, I run COB's on an LPS and they run pretty clean. Link to comment
Popular Post gmgraves Posted April 25, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted April 25, 2019 14 hours ago, sandyk said: That applies especially to many of the Objective members of this forum ! That’s kind of the point here, isn’t it Alex? Even though I’m not strictly an objectivist; I do all of my audio evaluation by listening. But I certainly do not expect to hear things that the laws of physics tell me are impossible, and therefore, you are right, in many cases my mind doesn’t want to hear what isn’t there and I either don’t hear it, or I ignore it as a figment of my imagination (interconnects, for instance). Bottom line here is my “ears” are my main tool for evaluating audio, but like all tools, they are limited to the tasks at which they are good. I try to keep that in mind when I use them. If my ears tell me something is going on that simply cannot be, I look deeper into the subject using other tools such as the analytical part of my brain, and where applicable, test instruments. Why just a couple of weeks ago a friend of mine brought over some ultra expensive power cord from Furutech. I explained to him how it was completely impossible for that cord to change the sound of his amplifier. My amp had a different connector than his cord, so we used my headphone amp to test it. After letting the amp warm-up, we listened with a pair of HiFiMan EditionX v.2 headphones; first with the cord it shipped with and secondly with his new Furutech cord. He said that he “thought” he heard a slight increase in transparency with the Furutech over the stock IEC cable, but I didn’t hear anything that I could put my finger on. So I pulled out my trusty Tektronics 100 MHz Solid State ‘scope. We took the top off of the headphone amp and connected the probe across the incoming AC signal (with ‘scope AC coupled). First, we looked at the AC with the stock IEC cable and then with the expensive thick-as-a-baby’s-arm and as stiff as rigor mortis Furutech cord. With the scope sensitivity on maximum there was absolutely no difference in the look of the mains voltage with either cable. The test I made were with the headphone amp plugged directly into a wall outlet (you might recall that my mains for my stereo system goes through a massive hospital grade isolating power supply with LRC filters in both end bells of the transformer). I didn’t want the transformer “pre-cleaning” the mains between the wall outlet and the two power cords. I was interested in seeing what the Furutech cord could do to improve mains quality (after all, that’s the only thing a power cord could possibly do to “improve” the sound of an audio component). After this test showed absolutely no difference between the AC current through either cable (and just as I predicted), my friend returned the Furutech cable for a refund. I suspect that he will think twice in the future about buying “snake oil” audio products! Of course, YMMV, but I doubt it. 😉 Paul R, crenca, jhwalker and 1 other 2 2 George Link to comment
Popular Post Allan F Posted April 25, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted April 25, 2019 34 minutes ago, gmgraves said: That’s kind of the point here, isn’t it Alex? Even though I’m not strictly an objectivist; I do all of my audio evaluation by listening. But I certainly do not expect to hear things that the laws of physics tell me are impossible, and therefore, you are right, in many cases my mind doesn’t want to hear what isn’t there and I either don’t hear it, or I ignore it as a figment of my imagination (interconnects, for instance). And, of course, you reject out of hand the possibility that what you "ignore as a figment of my imagination" is, in fact, real. Your bias, IMO, stems from the assumption that any audible differences that can be heard must necessarily be measurable with current knowledge, technology and techniques. Teresa, fas42, Paul R and 2 others 2 1 1 1 "Relax, it's only hi-fi. There's never been a hi-fi emergency." - Roy Hall "Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." - William Bruce Cameron Link to comment
sandyk Posted April 25, 2019 Share Posted April 25, 2019 47 minutes ago, gmgraves said: Why just a couple of weeks ago a friend of mine brought over some ultra expensive power cord from Furutech. I explained to him how it was completely impossible for that cord to change the sound of his amplifier. My amp had a different connector than his cord, so we used my headphone amp to test it. Come on George, that is a completely unfair way to verify any improvements from an expensive mains cable designed to power HIGH CURRENT devices such as high power Power Amplifiers etc., not a piddling Headphone Amplifier! How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file. PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020 Link to comment
BrokeLinuxPhile Posted April 25, 2019 Share Posted April 25, 2019 Laws of physics are just that, law. Independently validated time and time again by scientist after scientist. Fully reproducible and observable if you follow the same documented steps. If a cable mfg or anyone else claims that their product ever gets around one of these laws, they are frauds. Then there is theory/hypothesis. It's a concept that may be possible or somewhat accepted, but it isn't law. Because it can't be observed yet with current tech or consistent results can't be obtained with capable tech right now. Most cables fall under theory or hypothesis. They may be right, they may be wrong, but no one can agree either way. Teresa 1 Link to comment
Paul R Posted April 25, 2019 Share Posted April 25, 2019 42 minutes ago, Allan F said: And, of course, you reject out of hand the possibility that what you "ignore as a figment of my imagination" is, in fact, real. Your bias, IMO, stems from the assumption that any audible differences that can be heard must necessarily be measurable with current knowledge, technology and techniques. I take your meaning, but I do not think that is what George said. What he said is perfectly true, at least for George. What Alex says is perfectly true, at least for Alex. It appears to be a conundrum! Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC. Robert A. Heinlein Link to comment
pkane2001 Posted April 25, 2019 Share Posted April 25, 2019 6 minutes ago, Paul R said: I take your meaning, but I do not think that is what George said. What he said is perfectly true, at least for George. What Alex says is perfectly true, at least for Alex. It appears to be a conundrum! It’s all easily explained by science: -Paul DeltaWave, DISTORT, Earful, PKHarmonic, new: Multitone Analyzer Link to comment
Paul R Posted April 25, 2019 Share Posted April 25, 2019 5 minutes ago, pkane2001 said: It’s all easily explained by science: Alex and George? Quantum Entanglement? Spooky interaction at a distance?! Oh My... Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC. Robert A. Heinlein Link to comment
Popular Post pkane2001 Posted April 25, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted April 25, 2019 1 minute ago, Paul R said: Alex and George? Quantum Entanglement? Spooky interaction at a distance?! Oh My... More like separate contradicting realities that are both valid, but only within their corresponding personal universes. AudioDoctor and crenca 2 -Paul DeltaWave, DISTORT, Earful, PKHarmonic, new: Multitone Analyzer Link to comment
sandyk Posted April 25, 2019 Share Posted April 25, 2019 19 minutes ago, pkane2001 said: More like separate contradicting realities that are both valid, but only within their corresponding personal universes. You are completely missing the obvious. There are quite a few other members, including Peter and Mani, and other people from a couple of other forums that have also experienced AND verified MY Reality. George shares his reality along with members such as Mansr. wgscott 1 How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file. PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020 Link to comment
fas42 Posted April 25, 2019 Share Posted April 25, 2019 I liken getting audio of high quality to doing a precision scientific measurement - in the latter, the greater the precision, and certainty desired, the more 'expensive' the effort will be - in time and/or expense - there are no shortcuts available, like just chucking in some extra visual bling, to try and push it over the line. Science has some of the ultimate high end exercises in pushing the limits of "finding extra detail" - massively huge, massively expensive, to render "audible" a tiny, tiny thing ... Link to comment
pkane2001 Posted April 25, 2019 Share Posted April 25, 2019 17 minutes ago, sandyk said: You are completely missing the obvious. There are quite a few other members, including Peter and Mani, and other people from a couple of other forums that have also experienced AND verified MY Reality. George shares his reality along with members such as Mansr. That, Alex, is not sufficient evidence in my reality. The evidence that you sent me and others didn’t validate your claims, so perhaps our universes are just not compatible. Teresa 1 -Paul DeltaWave, DISTORT, Earful, PKHarmonic, new: Multitone Analyzer Link to comment
Popular Post sandyk Posted April 25, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted April 25, 2019 17 minutes ago, pkane2001 said: That, Alex, is not sufficient evidence in my reality. The evidence that you sent me and others didn’t validate your claims, so perhaps our universes are just not compatible. I made it perfectly clear that not everybody will be able to hear differences with uploaded files, and explained that my preference has for some time been to supply files on physical media. That is why I have on several occasions offered to supply BR discs with numerous pairs of 1920 x 1080 .mp4 music videos on them, yet NOBODY has shown any interest whatsoever from the Objective membership. It has NOTHING whatsoever to do with our "individual" universes. That is complete and utter fanciful bullshit. It has everything to do with other things such as hearing abilities, the quality of the equipment used, AND especially the ability to override long held Biases due to original training in these areas. pkane2001 and Teresa 1 1 How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file. PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020 Link to comment
Popular Post pkane2001 Posted April 26, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted April 26, 2019 15 minutes ago, sandyk said: I made it perfectly clear that not everybody will be able to hear differences with uploaded files, and explained that my preference has for some time been to supply files on physical media. That is why I have on several occasions offered to supply BR discs with numerous pairs of 1920 x 1080 .mp4 music videos on them, yet NOBODY has shown any interest whatsoever from the Objective membership. It has NOTHING whatsoever to do with our "individual" universes. That is complete and utter fanciful bullshit. It has everything to do with other things such as hearing abilities, the quality of the equipment used, AND especially the ability to override long held Biases due to original training in these areas. That’s where our universes diverge, Alex. In mine, digital file download is exactly equivalent to physical media transfer of the same file, as long as the bits in the result are the same. No ifs ands or buts. Apparently that’s not true in yours. Thankfully, that is all explained by the quantum mechanics experiment I linked earlier Teresa and Ralf11 1 1 -Paul DeltaWave, DISTORT, Earful, PKHarmonic, new: Multitone Analyzer Link to comment
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